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Looky Likey wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Does it hurt something that doesn't have an armor save? (I.e. most daemons)

Wounds on a 6 if the target doesn't have an amour save so not much cop against demons. I think it glances vehicles on a 6 regardless of AV as well, so better than a heavy bolter, heavy flamer and plasma against AV13+, worse than them for AV12 or lower.

I think grav has its place, you just aren't going to spam it in an all comers list as you can get some really poor match ups like Demons or Orks. A couple of units with Grav could really help particularly the heavy armoured MCs were you'd normally be struggling to wound them outside of poisoned weapons.

Unless the weapon has a special rule saying it does so, grav weapons are usless against models without an armour save. Just like how Lore of Metal damage spells in Fantasy cannot wound anyone without an armour save.

Most Daemons will be immune to them. Khornate Daemons for the most part tend to have a basic 6+ armour save (scaly skin), while the 'Thirsters comes standard with a 3+ save. (so he's not too thrilled!)
But Tzeentch, Slaanesh & Nurgle are basically sitting in a corner and laughing their collective a**** off!

Deathwing OP, better nerf.

Right?

According to the last rumours I saw, Centurions are capable of taking Grav Cannons, which are rumoured to be Salvo 3/5 AP2.

Don't know where this rumour stands now, or how many cannons they'll be able to take, but wow...

if they seriously are salvo 3/5 then the whole (and nicely done btw) mathhammer Nevelon did is moot. Why? Because unless they cost as much or more than lascannons, gravweapons will severally outgun plasma in rate of fire and only have target competition issues against hordy armies like orks.

Im buying the space marine codex when it comes out lol. I would like to have them all but budget budget BUDGET. Contemplating buying some marines anyway, have been for awhile, but i want to know wtf my Riptides are going to be facing lol

Only the cannons had salvo 3/5. Can't remember what rifles were, but I think they were 2/3 as Nevelon said.

Still considerably more firepower than plasmas. And i havnt heard anything about any Gets Hot! on them so thats another reason to take grav over plasma so far. (Actually forgot that plasmas normally have Gets Hot since i play tau and they dont do that lol)

I think the Centurions will be quite expensive though for the grav-cannons. Plus, they might not be the best for every thing you fight, needless to say.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I think the Centurions will be quite expensive though for the grav-cannons. Plus, they might not be the best for every thing you fight, needless to say.

They only cost as much as lascannons.

A lascannon Cent Dev and a Grav cannon Cent Dev both cost 80 points for a model that will prove quite annoyingly resilient. Heck, throw a Telekine dome on them and sneer at your foes as everything they shoot bounces off.

 Kain wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I think the Centurions will be quite expensive though for the grav-cannons. Plus, they might not be the best for every thing you fight, needless to say.

They only cost as much as lascannons.

A lascannon Cent Dev and a Grav cannon Cent Dev both cost 80 points for a model that will prove quite annoyingly resilient. Heck, throw a Telekine dome on them and sneer at your foes as everything they shoot bounces off.

I was thinking an allied DA PFG Divination libby, but that works too =D

although wow all three members of the squad would cost 240pts. How much Range will they affect?

The numbers I was crunching were for the rifles, not the cannons. Last rumor I check had the canons only on the Cents. I'm not planning on picking any up, so I haven't given them a lot of thought. They are also going to compare to a full 4xPC dev squad, so you have to deal with questions like how many guys is the blast hitting, and scatter. So the math gets fuzzy, fast. The rifles are a more direct comparison.

Plasma can also ID T3 targets, which is a plus vs. some armies.

Get's Hot! happens, but not that often. And you get your armor save. If you are pumping out enough plasma for it to happen statistically, odds are, you just killed half your opponent's army. But when the dice gods turn their fickle backs to you, you can have all your gunners die turn one. Unlikely, but possible.

I think plasma is more generically useful. Grav weapons are better vs. high T targets, so monsters. Traditionally my answer for monsters was sternguard rapid firing the wound on a 2+ ammo, or snipers. This gives us another option. If you are looking at squad support weapons, anything the grav gun excels against, bolters are going to bounce off of. I'm not a big fan of the bulk of the squad cheerleading while one guy does the work. While the grav isn't bad vs. MEQ (wounds on a 3+, no save) I like the fact that the plasma gun has the same range/rapid fire as a bolter. Particularly since my tac squads are almost always on the move.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Looky Likey wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Does it hurt something that doesn't have an armor save? (I.e. most daemons)

Wounds on a 6 if the target doesn't have an amour save so not much cop against demons. I think it glances vehicles on a 6 regardless of AV as well, so better than a heavy bolter, heavy flamer and plasma against AV13+, worse than them for AV12 or lower.

I think grav has its place, you just aren't going to spam it in an all comers list as you can get some really poor match ups like Demons or Orks. A couple of units with Grav could really help particularly the heavy armoured MCs were you'd normally be struggling to wound them outside of poisoned weapons.

Unless the weapon has a special rule saying it does so, grav weapons are usless against models without an armour save. Just like how Lore of Metal damage spells in Fantasy cannot wound anyone without an armour save.

Most Daemons will be immune to them. Khornate Daemons for the most part tend to have a basic 6+ armour save (scaly skin), while the 'Thirsters comes standard with a 3+ save. (so he's not too thrilled!)
But Tzeentch, Slaanesh & Nurgle are basically sitting in a corner and laughing their collective a**** off!

The rules for grav explicitly state that the weapon wounds on a 6 for those without a save.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if they seriously are salvo 3/5 then the whole (and nicely done btw) mathhammer Nevelon did is moot. Why? Because unless they cost as much or more than lascannons, gravweapons will severally outgun plasma in rate of fire and only have target competition issues against hordy armies like orks.

Not really, as the Grav-Cannon (presumably) would be the heavy variant, competing with the Plasma Cannon (which, it seems, Centurions cannot take).

It sounds like a nice option for the Centurions, especially if they are on MC-hunting duty.

The mathhammer still stands for the plasma gun (not cannon) vs. grav-gun (not cannon) on Tac Marines, Sternguard, etc.., though, from what I hear.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I think the Centurions will be quite expensive though for the grav-cannons. Plus, they might not be the best for every thing you fight, needless to say.

They only cost as much as lascannons.

A lascannon Cent Dev and a Grav cannon Cent Dev both cost 80 points for a model that will prove quite annoyingly resilient. Heck, throw a Telekine dome on them and sneer at your foes as everything they shoot bounces off.

I was thinking an allied DA PFG Divination libby, but that works too =D

although wow all three members of the squad would cost 240pts. How much Range will they affect?

Grav cannons have a range of 24'

BUT

Centurions are relentless/SnP so they can put someone in for a nasty surprise.

 Flinty wrote:

 laginess wrote:
I'm a longtime fan of the half-life series and it will take me a long time to get over this cheap imitation of my favorite gun ever (save the portal gun).

I'm pretty sure that Grav guns were included in Rogue Trader and therefore pre-date Half-life by about a decade They even had a specific weapon specialist marking for shoulder pads. They may have nicked it from somewhere else, but HL wasn't the source.

Yep, the Grav(iton) weapons date back to Rogue Trader.

This is a situation of GW "bringing it back" so they can sell more toys. Not them inventing something new.

"The Graviton gun is a curious weapon. It was originally developed for peaceful purposes in low gravity environments. Any target hit by the gun acquires added mass - becoming much heavier almost instantly. This does not physically change or harm the target, but it does make movement difficult."

The description was expanded in 2nd Edition:
"The graviton gun is a development of the gravitic reaction principle, used in gravitic motors to propel vehicles such as the Imperial land speeder. It affects the local gravity field and changes the weights of objects making them far heavier or lighter than normal. The graviton gun is useful for demolition and siege work, as it is most effective when employed against massive structures such as buildings. The effect against living targets is variable, the stresses of increased weight may kill a large individual, but most targets will be merely immobilized.

When it is fired, the graviton gun emits a bass rumbling noise which grows louder as its weight distorting rays affect the air pressure in front of it causing the air itself to vibrate."

In the 2nd Edition game (In RT it just reduced their movement by D6, which was a lot since most models moved 4"), it immobilized models it hit and they could no longer move or shoot (could still use psychic powers). And it increased damage results against vehicles and buildings. The "Grav gun" seems to more or less be an extrapolation of that, just with rules more suited to 3+ Edition's mechanics.

 Kain wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I think the Centurions will be quite expensive though for the grav-cannons. Plus, they might not be the best for every thing you fight, needless to say.

They only cost as much as lascannons.

A lascannon Cent Dev and a Grav cannon Cent Dev both cost 80 points for a model that will prove quite annoyingly resilient. Heck, throw a Telekine dome on them and sneer at your foes as everything they shoot bounces off.

I was thinking an allied DA PFG Divination libby, but that works too =D

although wow all three members of the squad would cost 240pts. How much Range will they affect?

Grav cannons have a range of 24'

BUT

Centurions are relentless/SnP so they can put someone in for a nasty surprise.

True. I'm thinking they might get more prevelent when the nid codex drops. They seem to be able to protect a gunline from any nasty bug coming it's way.

Having just read the Batrep this month, I can firmly say that if I know I am fighting TEQ armies like Deathwing and Draigowing, Grav-urianss for the win!

Seriously, listen to this.

Pg 64

"...I dread to think what they'd do to my Terminators- To Wound rolls on a 2+, with a re-roll thanks to the Grav Amps, is just going to wipe me out."



That's some serious firepower on a T5, 2W and 2+ model. Particularly if the Grav Cannons are Salvo 3/5 as rumoured and Centurians are relentless or SNP, which they should be.

if they are not SNP then they better remove Meganobz SNP in the next codex. They are as clunky and awkward as MANz or more, but definitely armored enough for a 2+ save.

People think theyre the same, theyre not. Only reason Termies arent infinitely better than MANz is because termie armor adds in part of the downside SNP does (no sweeping advance). They can still run or shoot overwatch, SNP cannot.
Only upside to SNP is it goes to the whole unit, relentless does not.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if they are not SNP then they better remove Meganobz SNP in the next codex. They are as clunky and awkward as MANz or more, but definitely armored enough for a 2+ save.

People think theyre the same, theyre not. Only reason Termies arent infinitely better than MANz is because termie armor adds in part of the downside SNP does (no sweeping advance). They can still run or shoot overwatch, SNP cannot.
Only upside to SNP is it goes to the whole unit, relentless does not.

MANz have two wounds, which often proves better than the 5+ invul that Termies can get.

Now if only there was some way to Cybork them and/or get Pain boyz with them.

Of course we could always look at Paladins for how tough two wound TEQs are with FNP.

Take Mad Dok, if you dare. Then you have Cybork option for 5ppm. Then you can have your pseudo-Termies with T5 and W2.

 Nevelon wrote:
http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/images/f/f5/RT-Space_Marines_Colors_%26_Markings.jpg

is a copy of the classic RT era picture. On the bottom right is the weapon type markings. Grav guns are the concentric black/white rings.

(The pic is the first one google popped up on my search)

Oh! Snap! bottom right, Rainbow Warriors baby! They found the STC to the Care Bear Stare Cannon!

Aww man, I was going to make a named crytek with a weapon like the grave guns (I was going to call it the gravity lance), except vs vehicles it was going to have a strength equal to the vehicles highest AV minus four and have the lance special rule, and it was going to be a 36in rang assault one. But now it will just look like I am trying to one up the space marines.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
Aww man, I was going to make a named crytek with a weapon like the grave guns (I was going to call it the gravity lance), except vs vehicles it was going to have a strength equal to the vehicles highest AV minus four and have the lance special rule, and it was going to be a 36in rang assault one. But now it will just look like I am trying to one up the space marines.

Perhaps try "mass" instead? Not really the same thing from a scientific standpoint, but it'll suffice. Or perhaps something to do with black holes or dark matter if that's still too similar. Black holes in particular could *really* work, because scientifically they don't do the whole "suck you in" thing that most people think, instead they have funny effects on slowing down time to an observer the closer to it the subject gets.

 laginess wrote:
I think I could forgive grav weapons of their sin (they came back out after hl2 so I still am a bit upset at them, I hold grudges irrationally ),

Your grudge is especially irrational since Half-life 2 came out in 2004 according to Wikipedia and when I was playing 2nd Edition back in 1993 we had grav guns. D0 you play dwarves by any chance?

How dare you refer to it as a grudge! I shall inform Columbia Pictures that you're ripping off their 2004 movie post-haste.