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MarkyMark wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
Demons have as much rending as you can put in an army outside eldar's pseudo rending. It only takes 72 rending attacks at WS4 or 54 WS5+ attacks to kill a wraithknight. You should be able to do that with a few units. Wraithknigh does ~1.3 S10 wounds a turn to you, which really isnt that bad when you consider that you can probably put 3 rends on him per turn. Honestly, demons are better kitted out to dealing with a WK than most armies, but have a need to do so more than other armies.

Thanks for the math hammer, FYI 10 Daemonettes if getting the charge can do that in 2 assault phases, 10 with a champion kick out 31 attacks on the charge plus 21 the round after, you will lose a few so its better to have a few more though and prescience will help a lot. They are also better then using mutli wound models due to the str 10. Again it is all about getting the charge off and not going through terrain (so will be striking same time as the WK).

Although in a competitive setting, daemonettes wont be as good when facing dual WK (assuming my current meta of 1650-1850) as massed WS spam will really whittle them down I am more inclined to try daemonettes as a counter if facing three WK's as, at those point levels and due to the cost of troop tax and WS's and trip WK you wont be able to field many WS's. Dual WK worries me more then trip WK due to this fact, one doesnt worry me at all.

I have a tournment this weekend in the UK, its one of the big ones and due to one of the house rule FAQ's being ignore cover does only work against wounds I expect to see a lot of darn WS's and dual and trip WK lists!, I am of course running daemons, I will report back after with my findings in the field .

That is...one of the dumbest interpretations of the rules I've ever seen, I'm sorry.

Break down of my tourny, long read for anyone that is interested, its a copy and paste from my emails so may be a bit confusing in places!, mainly putting it here as its easy


My list

Fatey

Herald disc, ml3 grimoire
Herald disc, ml3 portal
herald disc ml3 2 lesser
herald disc ml3 1 lesser and locus conjuration

10 daemonettes with alluress
10 daemonettes
10 horrors

11 hounds
11 hounds
9 screamers

1750.




Well my games, first isnt worth talking about I lost in total one squad of hounds and 10 daemonettes, he had one LR immobilsed on one HP left and 2 termies and cassius on 1 wound, I killed everything else including pods etc. Went second.

Second game was against a strange eldar list, struggled to work out where his points went, farseer with 6 bikes kept the council tied up for a bit, WK then charged in. End of game I had 4 objectives 3 FA kills, he had killed one hound squad. Went second.

Third game was against Dan Sackett, he was running eldar and DE.
Farseer with shard jetbike
farseer jetbike
baron

3 squads of EJB
5 DE warriors

18 strong of beast pack with beast masters

2 WK's
night spinner


First roll on his powers he gets fortune fun. Next farseer first roll he gets invis, even more fun. I lose both squads of hounds quite quickly to it really puts me on the back foot, then the beast pack charges the screamers, I do not fail the grimoire once not even needing my re roll, I proceed to precision strike the baron out after the WK charges in and he decides not to hit and run as he has nothing else to engage (everything still in reserves thanks to scriers gaze). Ended up killing the beast pack and baron, fatey really done well this game killing a fair bit, warpstorm won me the primary though thanks to wiping out two units of jet bikes. Lost the secondary thanks to a few poxy DE warriors who I should have really killed with fatey, darn. Went second.

Last game of day 4 was against a eldar gun line.

Farseer,
Spiritseer
Warlock

Fire dragons in WS with HF TL SL

20 guardians with scatter x2
10 guardians with scatter in wave serpent with HF and TL SL
3 EJB
3 EJB

2 scatter laser war walkers
2 wraithknights

aegis with quad gun



Perfect, deployed just the council, grimore fore etc charged half his gun line, killed it, then killed the WK's, then mopped out after, I lost one unit of dogs and he had left 1 damaged WS I think, spiritseer and a few guardians. Went Second. Ended up getting 23 vps that game I really went for the kill that game.

I was acutally top at this point, gaz donnley was on 69pts I was on 70, droppd 10 pts in 4 games, 8 in one game!.



So top table against Gaz donnely,

Farseer on jetbike

4 WS with DA in each, standard load out

3 WK;s

Skyshield

Deployed the hounds to threaten the WS's, one unit was killed except for a dog on 1 wound, other was charged by WK, hardly lost any. Lost 5 or 6 screamers to WS shooting, just the shield as non LOS blocking terrain what so ever and no NF and no first turn. So I had lost by not going first, fun. Anyway grimoire and Forewarned up shot one WK getting 1 wound off, all 4 heralds had bolt and had perfect timing. Next turn he charges all three WK's into hounds and kills most of them, I boost close to start to threaten his WS's, as all I had left on the board is 3 screamers and 4 heralds, fun, fatey also come on and I went for the vector on the lone mantled farseer, doing 1 poxy wound (he had fortune).

Fatey tanks the whole army of WS's (4 of them) shooting at him, he laughs and takes 1 wound and does not get grounded, WK was next to him waiting to charge, this is where I said he would have to go through terrain, he said no he will move his WK sideways....

He then charges the other two WK's into the council as I boosted too close, he rolls charge range for one and as I am on other side of table he says he has made it, Matt R is watching the game and says no you havent, and gaz says I measure to the model not the base..... Anyway one gets into I dont lose anything maybe take a wound or two off, 3 heralds having staffs helped a lot.

Basically ends up I nick his skyshield with daemonettes, they then get depleted by WS shooting and whats left gets into combat with WK's, portal spawns me quite a few plague bearers.

It comes down to my last turn, I get dbl6 on warpstorm giving me a load of troops, chose daemonettes and deepstrike them near his objective scatters but easily within d6+3 run range, contest that and that quarter. fatey was in combat, put one wound ont he WK and saved 4 times thanks to pre cog, was contesting that objective with fatey, WK had 2 wounds left . Fatey then died to 2 wounds, failed one save re roll and failed again, fatey did fail two grounding tests with re roll. council died out before that thanks to failed grimoire.

Plagues were next to objective charged his contesting farseer, failed his fear test, put 6 woudns on him and he had one left, saved them all thanks to fortune. FML!

So it boiled down to 2 rolls really, grounding for fatey or the grimoire for the heralds, I could have kept the heralds contesting his top objective and 1 WK and put fatey against his farseer with shooting which would have given me that objective and meant I won primary on the 2 HS kills, table quarters he won though but again if killed his farseer I could have put fatey onto his objective to contest. Pretty gutted but hey, this happens. Went second, only game to lose my council, think I done ok considering I lost 6 screamers very early on.



So final game, still in the running, 20 nil here and I am second. Against the same list as before, except 2 WK's and 5 WS's with Skyshield. Very long to set up and play for my opponent. he shot the crap out of one squad of hounds reducing to a man, fatey was fine but didnt really do much (deployed him on the board in the only LOS blocking terrain which JUST fit him in). screamrs grimoired and FW up, went in middle and reduced a WK to 2 or 3 wounds in one shooting phase, pleased with that, then lost the other hounds to one dog on 1 wound the next turn, he had a few of the DA's out of the WS's by then. Fatey did vector a squad and killed half who then spent the next two turns running away, they run off the board I think but oppoenent said they never. Oh well, FB doesnt matter. Basically I ended up killing both WK's and turning his farseer into a spawn, I didnt have scriers gaze so troops were coming on in dribs and drabs so all died out, biggest mistake was putting the portal down too early really.

in the end I contested all secondary objectives, no troops left at all to get them, and he just kept hold of the relic, I should have used 32 str4 attacks against his WS with 1 hp with troops inside but used the armour bane instead, blew it up and he only lost 1, so he won on primary. Went second, no scriers gaze cost me the game.

Overall, I went second every poxy game, in 5 at least, I never won the roll to place objectives, pick sides or first or second turn. I could have won the last two games, espically against gaz donnley should have not boosted the council, shoudl have kept them back and gone for last min contest. Scriers gaze cost me dear in the last game, could have won that as well.

The ignores cover no work on vehicles was a joke overall, I didnt know this but they had this at toy soliders, the last tourny run there so the winners, all locals, knew this so holo fields and skyshields was known to work well, this meant I didnt waste shots on 2+ save WS's, i done very well against WK's overall, killing 8 and taking 1 down to 2 wounds and another down a few wounds in 4 games so in 4 games so thats 10 WK's I faced in 4 games. but killing them means there troops were ok which mattered a little. IT really affected me when I shot the WS carrying the relic in the last game as I had perfect timing on and it had one HP left so it should have been dead, which meant the screamers would have chopped up the contents meaning he did not get the relic.

Not sure where to go from here comp wise, against Tau and eldar gunline I am good, against multiple WK's not so good, cannot believe I didnt win any of the rolls to go first, gutted by that as even with 3 screamers against the winner I was able to contest all but one objective and kill 2 WK's and 4 wounds on another (so thats 16 t8 wounds I stripped off). I do need more proper pratice against WK and WS lists, I will be interested to see how different it would be with ignores cover working against vehicles.