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 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
I think you are missing the point.

Indeed, I am.

I see no point in paying for a sub-par captain who costs me TWO actions (TL+Chang's ability) in order to deny the enemy ONE action!

Yes, Picard's ship is now down an action but Chang's ship is down two and Picard now gets his free action and gets to shoot first. The advantage seems entirely to go to my enemy! Is Chang a traitor? Actually, in the movie he was and murdered his own chancellor.

There are higher skilled Klingon captains and every one of them has better abilities than to spend two actions to deny your enemy one action. Chang will find no place in my Klingon fleet but I certainly hope my opponent uses him and uses up all those actions!

Ok look at it like this, it’s not giving up two actions to make them lose 1. It is dictating to them what actions they are going to have available.


- you play a standard 100 pt game.

Federation has ship A, ship B, and the standard Enterprise D, Picard, Sulu, Spock combo.


Klingons, have a Negvar w/Martock, Vorcha w/Gowron, and a Vorcha w/Chang.


More than likely the klingons cloak the first turn and nobody has anything to shoot at. Second turn assuming the klingon player is not stupid he gangs up on the D and worries about the rest later. The klingons are already cloaked so you don’t have to worry about that.


.Chang target locks the D
.Gowron gives the other 2 ships +1 attack die
.Martock gives a free action to Change, who then disables Picard. Oh and Martock’s ship probably target locked too.
. The Klingons will be dealing out 17 attack dice this turn assuming no one is in range 1. Even if Federation ship A & B both gang up on one Klingon ship they are probably not going to take it out and the klingons can focus on them once the enterprise is down.


Now the Federation player has to choose 1)use the D’s action to enable picard so they can shoot before going down OR 2) use Sulu to survive and possibly get the ship shot out from under you before you attack.
If the federation takes option 1) the ship is doomed, with combined fire the Enterprise needs both Sulu and an evade to hold out.
If they take option 2) there is a good chance they could get the ship shot out from under them before they can even attack.
In most cases, human nature being what it is, people are probably going to try to enable picard thus leaving the ship defenseless. The key thing is that Picard and the Enterprise D allow people to use an action for both defense and attack where everyone else has to choose.


Let’s face facts nobody in their right mind is going to take Chang in a one ship game, but he makes a good option for a 2nd or 3rd captain in a fleet. Also in some games he may be ineffective against other captains, but against someone who takes Picard or Kirk disabling someone’s captain could be huge.


-Deathwing
I believe it was your battle report that you had Picard in a Negvar. So imagine if every round you had to choose between shooting with picard or cloaking because if someone pairs Martock and Chang together they can do it every turn. Now granted it probably won’t happen every turn but it could easily happen a few turns in a row and they will only need 1 or 2 to take you out. He won’t win you every game, but he should give you a leg up against some of the better captains.

So after looking over the cards again I can't but help feeling under whelmed by Sisko. He is a 6 with a talent slot and an ok ability. Am I the only one who thinks he should have a higher captain skill. Yes he is no Kirk or Picard but he had way more command and combat experience than Riker who is also a 6. I mean come on he was put in charge of whole fleets a few times and usually comanded from the front lines aboard the defiant. I guess he will be good with the "attack pattern omega" talent. I think he should be at least a 7 or 8.

Does anyone else think Sisko got screwed or is it just me?

Oh and does anyone ever plan on using Kira? He ability is very situational and 2 pts for a captain skill of 3. Someone like terell or pike are a much better value for a 2nd or 3rd ship. Unless it is a large game and I have used most of the other named captains I just don't see her being used.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
So after looking over the cards again I can't but help feeling under whelmed by Sisko. He is a 6 with a talent slot and an ok ability. Am I the only one who thinks he should have a higher captain skill. Yes he is no Kirk or Picard but he had way more command and combat experience than Riker who is also a 6. I mean come on he was put in charge of whole fleets a few times and usually comanded from the front lines aboard the defiant. I guess he will be good with the "attack pattern omega" talent. I think he should be at least a 7 or 8.

No that's about right for Sisko. Remember Riker declined command posts to stay on the Enterprise. PL6 seems to be the range for an experienced captain, 7 to 8 are that elite level captain range. I do love Sisko and he is my default answer to the eternal question of which captain was better Kirk or Picard, but at PL6 he is about right.

Jon

I'm not too miffed about Sisko at 6. Riker was supposedly the best pilot on the Enterprise-D. I AM miffed that we have Kira instead of Worf as a Captain.

 schmoozies wrote:

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
So after looking over the cards again I can't but help feeling under whelmed by Sisko. He is a 6 with a talent slot and an ok ability. Am I the only one who thinks he should have a higher captain skill. Yes he is no Kirk or Picard but he had way more command and combat experience than Riker who is also a 6. I mean come on he was put in charge of whole fleets a few times and usually comanded from the front lines aboard the defiant. I guess he will be good with the "attack pattern omega" talent. I think he should be at least a 7 or 8.

No that's about right for Sisko. Remember Riker declined command posts to stay on the Enterprise. PL6 seems to be the range for an experienced captain, 7 to 8 are that elite level captain range. I do love Sisko and he is my default answer to the eternal question of which captain was better Kirk or Picard, but at PL6 he is about right.

Jon

I tend to agree. I'm rather excited about the next wave of ships (big surprise).

I recently read that Riker's ability only triggers once per round. I've given up on him.

Gordash wrote:
I recently read that Riker's ability only triggers once per round. I've given up on him.

If you are sticking with a pure faction build, pike and sisko are better level 6 captains.

I don't necessarily think that Pike is overall better than Riker. I was thinking some more about it, and with most lists being 2-3 ships, Riker's ability only triggering once per turn is not THAT limiting. In Attack Wing I like 3 ship lists, so I don't load them down with upgrades- so I don't find Pike a great captain. Sisko is going to be a good lvl 6 captain.

The captain skills that come with Sisko will work great with Kirk.

I think you are right with kirk. With more ships and elite ability cards that come out I think we will be seeing more of kirk.

Interestingly enough, both of the Sisko skills are 3 pts, so Kirk doesn't get a whole lot of mileage out of his ability if he takes them.

Kirk should probably always have Cheat Death. It's just so great to drop after a round of shooting.

The more I look at Sisko, the more I like him.


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Kira Nerys- Bajoran Affiliation, 2pts, skill 3. She keeps your ship from losing upgrades to cards like Miles O'Brien, and doesnt cost extra when she's captaining a federation ship. Meh? I don't see those snatch cards seeing a lot of play, but who knows. I don't think she's a very interesting Captain. I would have preferred her to be a crew upgrade with an ability reflecting her clandestine-terrorism-freedom fighter past.

So where would you guys put the LE Martok. Considering his skill 9 and ability I think he could be up there among the top. Not better than picard but still in the top 5.

At this point, I put Martok on the hardest hitting ship I have- The Negvar. When new Martok hits, I STILL would put him on the Negvar. He works well with the Negvar special ability.


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Did anyone else see the 5th Squadron ship preview yesterday and think that Wizkids is really pushing that disable the other players' stuff mechanic?

Gordash wrote:
At this point, I put Martok on the hardest hitting ship I have- The Negvar. When new Martok hits, I STILL would put him on the Negvar. He works well with the Negvar special ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did anyone else see the 5th Squadron ship preview yesterday and think that Wizkids is really pushing that disable the other players' stuff mechanic?

I have noticed that just about every faction has a few of these. Klingons have 2 romulans have 2 and I think the folloer of kahn also is one. The biggest thing for the dominion is it looks they can do it against someone who is cloaked or has shields up, whereas everyone else can't. I see the dominion cards getting more play for that reason, though they are more points.

I don't see too many people using this game mechanic yet, but the game has only been out for a month. So I could see them taking off as we go on and see more of the Enterprise D Picard sulu spock love fest. Most of these kind of crew are cheap and most of the time you could fit 1 in your list on the chance you catch someome with their shields down.

I saw someone on Board Game geek justifying the use of Sulu. I didn't think he needed justifying.

It's interesting, but I don't think 5pts to get rid of a 3pt card is going to be that great overall.

Have you played an OP event yet? Did you get the attack die? That thing is going in every list. From now on, every list will be 95pts.

Gordash wrote:
I saw someone on Board Game geek justifying the use of Sulu. I didn't think he needed justifying.

It's interesting, but I don't think 5pts to get rid of a 3pt card is going to be that great overall.

Have you played an OP event yet? Did you get the attack die? That thing is going in every list. From now on, every list will be 95pts.

My local store is not having month 1 until this weekend, so everyone else gets the new shiny stuff before us. Though outside of the OP I think the resources are opponent's permission. We have played 3 practice games of the scenario.

Yeah I don't think anyone needs to justify Sulu, currently he is the best crew in the game. He is way underpriced, should be 5 at least. He is in almost every federation list I have seen. I would gladly spend 5 points to get rid of him.

I've got my OP on Monday. Have you found that just going after the opponent's ships is a viable strategy? That's generally what I'm gearing my list towards.

Gordash wrote:
I've got my OP on Monday. Have you found that just going after the opponent's ships is a viable strategy? That's generally what I'm gearing my list towards.

In my practice games I have found that destroying the thing ASAP was the best way to go. The stationis a big distraction, taking it out opens up the table and on one case spooked the opponent into trying to navigate the mine field.

Either 1 go for the station and take it out or 2 go the other way (wormhole side) and engage the enemy. You really need to take the station out in one volley. So if you are going a 2 ship build take option 2. Three ships have the fire power to take it out in one turn. The reason I say this is if you get too close and don't blow it up, it can then dish out a lot of hurt or the other person is just going to shoot it out from under you. Remember it has no shields and in most cases will have no evade dice.

Great. I'm going to be playing Ent-D, Picard, Sulu, Spock, with a Terell Reliant and a Martok Negvar.

Gordash wrote:
Great. I'm going to be playing Ent-D, Picard, Sulu, Spock, with a Terell Reliant and a Martok Negvar.

Add some torpedoes to the Reliant and it sounds solid. That little ship does great things with torpedoes.

I am thinking Martok Negvar, Gowron Vorcha, Koloth Vorcha w/drex, and somebody getting klag. My TO was undecided on cross factions last I checked but if they allow it I might drop koloth & klag for Donatra. Though the thought of a romulan on a klingon ship is offensive.

I dont know what you take out of that list to fit in torps on the reliant. D- picard/sulu/spock, Reliant- Terell, Negvar- Martok is 98 pts.

Gordash wrote:
I dont know what you take out of that list to fit in torps on the reliant. D- picard/sulu/spock, Reliant- Terell, Negvar- Martok is 98 pts.

oops thats my bad I some how missed that you had spock

spock may be overkill, but I think he's worth more in the long run than Proton Torpedoes. With that list, I'll be able to blow up DS9 asap.

Gordash wrote:
spock may be overkill, but I think he's worth more in the long run than Proton Torpedoes. With that list, I'll be able to blow up DS9 asap.

I agree I don't really think torpedoes are really worth it on any ship with 4 or more attacks, especially thoes that perform battle stations.
I keep thinking of trying to fit klag or korax into my list because of spack & sulu.

I feel dirty about running a Klingon ship in a Federation build, but Martok has enough thematic coherence that the real problem is the appearance of Sulu and Terell in the 23rd century.

On a related topic, we just had the event at our shop last night. I was playing Klingons (Martok in a Negh/var, Gowron on a Negh'var, and Nu'daq in a Vor'cha) and my opponent beamed his crew onto DS9. So I blew it up. It went up surprisingly quickly...

At that rate, I tend to agree it's not worth the points if you already have 4/5 attack dice. However, some of them can be used in the rear arc (not that any of the Klingon ships have rear arcs yet). Also, the Negh'var and Vor'cha ships get an extra attack die if you buy the right torpedoes. With Gowron, it might be worth it since you'll be getting 7 dice. YMMV.

 spyguyyoda wrote:
On a related topic, we just had the event at our shop last night. I was playing Klingons (Martok in a Negh/var, Gowron on a Negh'var, and Nu'daq in a Vor'cha) and my opponent beamed his crew onto DS9. So I blew it up. It went up surprisingly quickly...

At that rate, I tend to agree it's not worth the points if you already have 4/5 attack dice. However, some of them can be used in the rear arc (not that any of the Klingon ships have rear arcs yet). Also, the Negh'var and Vor'cha ships get an extra attack die if you buy the right torpedoes. With Gowron, it might be worth it since you'll be getting 7 dice. YMMV.

the klingons might get more use out of them next month when kronos one/katanga class comes out, it will have a rear firing arc. I also think they are impressive on the d7, but 5 points is a lot for 1 extra attack on the big ships plus the use of an action.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

 spyguyyoda wrote:
On a related topic, we just had the event at our shop last night. I was playing Klingons (Martok in a Negh/var, Gowron on a Negh'var, and Nu'daq in a Vor'cha) and my opponent beamed his crew onto DS9. So I blew it up. It went up surprisingly quickly...

At that rate, I tend to agree it's not worth the points if you already have 4/5 attack dice. However, some of them can be used in the rear arc (not that any of the Klingon ships have rear arcs yet). Also, the Negh'var and Vor'cha ships get an extra attack die if you buy the right torpedoes. With Gowron, it might be worth it since you'll be getting 7 dice. YMMV.

the klingons might get more use out of them next month when kronos one/katanga class comes out, it will have a rear firing arc. I also think they are impressive on the d7, but 5 points is a lot for 1 extra attack on the big ships plus the use of an action.

I agree. The opportunity cost is quite high. I would prefer the Elite attack die over the 5 point torpedoes personally.

I think the Elite Attack Die is a really good upgrade when compared to Torpedoes. The way I understanding it, It can be used any time you have to use an attack die- so it can be used on special abilities as well. Riker/Neg'Var/Counter attack/I stab at thee all get a nice boost from the attack die. One of the important factors you have to consider in any upgrade is flexibility. That's why I think Sisko is actually a really good Captain, and why Picard is an amazing Captain- their abilities are useful in almost any game context. The Attack Die, when compared to the 5pt Photon Torpedoes, is a fantastic upgrade because of the flexibility of the die.