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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 20:44:29
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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I read it as "they are treated as 'friendly units' for all PoV's, except they cannot embark on an allied transports."
The line says they are "treated as friendly units", not that you can replace "Battle Brothers" with "friendly units".
So question: Is the Tau IC still a Battle Brother?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 20:48:42
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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The Hive Mind
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Kangodo wrote:I read it as "they are treated as 'friendly units' for all PoV's, except they cannot embark on an allied transports."
The line says they are "treated as friendly units", not that you can replace "Battle Brothers" with "friendly units".
That's not how the rules work.
Treated as == counts as == the exact same thing, meaning interchangeable. It must or the rules fail in spectacular ways.
So question: Is the Tau IC still a Battle Brother?
Nope. Not while he's in another unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 20:58:17
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:"• However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."
Are BT's and other SM's Battle Brothers?
If so then the BT characters still can not ride in allied transports, as per the rules.
The Battle Brothers rules cease applying when the IC ceases to be a unit.
They really do not.
They are battle brothers because they are listed as battle brothers on the allies matrix.
They will always be battle brothers even if they join an allied unit.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 21:11:21
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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The Hive Mind
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DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:"• However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."
Are BT's and other SM's Battle Brothers?
If so then the BT characters still can not ride in allied transports, as per the rules.
The Battle Brothers rules cease applying when the IC ceases to be a unit.
They really do not.
They are battle brothers because they are listed as battle brothers on the allies matrix.
They will always be battle brothers even if they join an allied unit.
There is no Tau unit to be a battle brother. You have zero rules support for your statements - the matrix refers to listbuilding and the rules I quoted.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 21:20:42
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The battle brother embarking debate has happened and been locked multiple times. We don't need to do it again with the same participants making the same claims.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 23:03:18
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:"• However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."
Are BT's and other SM's Battle Brothers?
If so then the BT characters still can not ride in allied transports, as per the rules.
The Battle Brothers rules cease applying when the IC ceases to be a unit.
They really do not.
They are battle brothers because they are listed as battle brothers on the allies matrix.
They will always be battle brothers even if they join an allied unit.
There is no Tau unit to be a battle brother. You have zero rules support for your statements - the matrix refers to listbuilding and the rules I quoted.
Fortunately the rules for not being able to embark only say battle brothers, and not battle brother units...
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 23:10:54
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Going very off topic here...
This really is another argument for another thread (and there already are other threads).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 23:21:16
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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The Hive Mind
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DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:rigeld2 wrote: DeathReaper wrote:"• However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."
Are BT's and other SM's Battle Brothers?
If so then the BT characters still can not ride in allied transports, as per the rules.
The Battle Brothers rules cease applying when the IC ceases to be a unit.
They really do not.
They are battle brothers because they are listed as battle brothers on the allies matrix.
They will always be battle brothers even if they join an allied unit.
There is no Tau unit to be a battle brother. You have zero rules support for your statements - the matrix refers to listbuilding and the rules I quoted.
Fortunately the rules for not being able to embark only say battle brothers, and not battle brother units...
That would be incorrect as I've proven in this thread.
My last post here, if you disagree feel free to argue using actual rules in a new thread.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 23:29:53
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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Maybe you could be a bit less aggressive in your arguing?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 00:41:01
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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Sothas wrote:Right, centurions/termies have bulky/very bulky which don't benefit. And IC joins the unit and is now part of that unit. The rule says that if a unit contains models with bulky/very bulky then the unit doesn't benefit. There are models in the unit that have bulky/very bulky. The IC is a part of that unit so he no longer benefits.
Looking at a thread in B&C, I get another interpretation:
1. The Bulky unit does not receive the T1 Stealth and Scout rules by themselves. Ok.
2. A footslogging IC (non-termie) receives both rules because he's not Bulky. Ok.
3. When an IC joins the Bulky unit, the unit gets the Scout and Stealth rules because they come from the IC, not from the unit itself. So, these Scout and Stealth rules are now part of the IC, and he shares them with his new unit. They're not the CT ( RG) rules anymore, because choosing your detachment is the very first thing you do in the game (as BRB, page 424, Game Summary). Explanation below.
4. When you choose your army, you have to separate detachments, allies, and stuff. The SM codex says ( pg. 77) that you choose your Chapter Tactics in this phase of the game - before even rolling for mission. Until now, nothing is joined to anything; it's just the army list, with Primary detachment (and a second at 2000+), Allies detachment(s) and Fortification(s).
5. You only deploy your army (and join units) after many steps, including Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers. Now, any unit that has the CT rules does not 'lose' them, because you cannot make any change in the army list now (it is set as the very first thing in the game). The Scout and Stealth rules are now intrinsic to the unit (the IC); the CT ( RG) part was already checked for each unit when you chose the RG detachment.
6. When you join the IC to any unit, it's Scout and T1 Stealth special rules are shared with the joined unit. So, joining a non-termie, non- JP Libby to a unit of Assault Termies inside (or not) their dedicated LR, gives it (or them, if inside the LR) the special rules. The Assault Termies unit did not receive the Scout and T1 Stealth rules when you chose your army, but from that moment on they can receive it from any IC that joins them, providing such IC was not Bulky the time you chose your army (the list cannot be changed after you select it, right?)
Of course I can be mistaken, but that's another PoV about this point.
P.S. Curiously, the CT ( RG) does not prohibit Extremely Bulky units to get Scout and T1 Stealth... do SM have any unit like that in FW?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/11 00:50:42
AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 00:53:17
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Dakka Veteran
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Rigeld2's argument hinges on the same thing nosferatu's always going off on - the strange notion that joining a unit does much more than merely make you part of the unit, it also supposedly makes you lose any and all properties you had before joining the unit, except those arbitrarily chosen by the proponents of this interpretation.
But the actual rules merely make you part of the unit, and the unit then has mixed properties. An IC joined to a BB unit is both an allied unit and a "native" unit.
There is no more reason to think that the IC loses his allied status, than there is to think he loses his statline and IC status.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/11 00:54:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 02:02:03
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Implacable Skitarii
US
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In the BRB all the USRs specify "If a unit contains at least one model..." for the USR to be applied to the unit.
Scout does not say this.
So, no they can't.
It also specifies that the CT rule does not apply to models with the bulky and very bulky USR. They still have that USR even if they are joined by an IC, so they still wouldn't be able to get it anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 02:15:22
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Member of the Malleus
SLC, UT
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Vector Strike wrote: Sothas wrote:Right, centurions/termies have bulky/very bulky which don't benefit. And IC joins the unit and is now part of that unit. The rule says that if a unit contains models with bulky/very bulky then the unit doesn't benefit. There are models in the unit that have bulky/very bulky. The IC is a part of that unit so he no longer benefits.
Looking at a thread in B&C, I get another interpretation:
1. The Bulky unit does not receive the T1 Stealth and Scout rules by themselves. Ok.
2. A footslogging IC (non-termie) receives both rules because he's not Bulky. Ok.
3. When an IC joins the Bulky unit, the unit gets the Scout and Stealth rules because they come from the IC, not from the unit itself. So, these Scout and Stealth rules are now part of the IC, and he shares them with his new unit. They're not the CT ( RG) rules anymore, because choosing your detachment is the very first thing you do in the game (as BRB, page 424, Game Summary). Explanation below.
4. When you choose your army, you have to separate detachments, allies, and stuff. The SM codex says ( pg. 77) that you choose your Chapter Tactics in this phase of the game - before even rolling for mission. Until now, nothing is joined to anything; it's just the army list, with Primary detachment (and a second at 2000+), Allies detachment(s) and Fortification(s).
5. You only deploy your army (and join units) after many steps, including Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers. Now, any unit that has the CT rules does not 'lose' them, because you cannot make any change in the army list now (it is set as the very first thing in the game). The Scout and Stealth rules are now intrinsic to the unit (the IC); the CT ( RG) part was already checked for each unit when you chose the RG detachment.
6. When you join the IC to any unit, it's Scout and T1 Stealth special rules are shared with the joined unit. So, joining a non-termie, non- JP Libby to a unit of Assault Termies inside (or not) their dedicated LR, gives it (or them, if inside the LR) the special rules. The Assault Termies unit did not receive the Scout and T1 Stealth rules when you chose your army, but from that moment on they can receive it from any IC that joins them, providing such IC was not Bulky the time you chose your army (the list cannot be changed after you select it, right?)
Of course I can be mistaken, but that's another PoV about this point.
P.S. Curiously, the CT ( RG) does not prohibit Extremely Bulky units to get Scout and T1 Stealth... do SM have any unit like that in FW?
The issue has nothing to do with the IC losing his special rule. It is a simple matter of the fact that the CT( RG) rule says ANY UNIT CONTAINING MODELS (key phrase here) with bulky/very bulky do not benefit from stealth or scout. When an IC joins the unit, he then becomes part of that unit. He doesn't lose his rules, but since he is a part of the unit, and the unit contains models with bulky/very bulky he doesn't benefit and there does not have the ability to pass the rules onto the unit as a whole. The IC is part of the unit. He does not benefit from the rules. There is no more complication than that. There are no loop holes. There is zero ability for RG to give land raiders scout. If you want it that bad, then use white scars.
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"Huddle close to your Emperor if he makes you feel safe. He cannot save you, for only Chaos is eternal."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 03:32:15
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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c0j1r0 wrote:In the BRB all the USRs specify "If a unit contains at least one model..." for the USR to be applied to the unit.
Scout does not say this.
So, no they can't.
It also specifies that the CT rule does not apply to models with the bulky and very bulky USR. They still have that USR even if they are joined by an IC, so they still wouldn't be able to get it anyway.
Looking at the Scout rule, it says "...a unit containing at least one model with this special rule can choose to redeploy..." Same with Stealth.
About the CT rule, I wrote about the check time of CT ( RG). In my mind, they do not receive Scouts by themselves when choosing a detachment. After that, an IC could give them that by joining, during deploy (that happens after checking detachment)
Sothas wrote:
The issue has nothing to do with the IC losing his special rule. It is a simple matter of the fact that the CT( RG) rule says ANY UNIT CONTAINING MODELS (key phrase here) with bulky/very bulky do not benefit from stealth or scout. When an IC joins the unit, he then becomes part of that unit. He doesn't lose his rules, but since he is a part of the unit, and the unit contains models with bulky/very bulky he doesn't benefit and there does not have the ability to pass the rules onto the unit as a whole. The IC is part of the unit. He does not benefit from the rules. There is no more complication than that. There are no loop holes. There is zero ability for RG to give land raiders scout. If you want it that bad, then use white scars.
Hey, maybe you missed the last 3 points of what I wrote. The IC only joins the unit after Warlord Traits rolls. That happens WAY AFTER choosing a detachment. When you choose a detachment, you check each unit for Chapter Tactics (Raven Guard). So, a Bulky unit does not receive the Scout/Stealth rules. When the deploy time comes (allowing joining by IC), the IC already has Scout/Stealth. Those rules aren't CT ( RG) anymore, because that was already checked. They are now part of the IC, and it shares them with any unit it joins.
But I concur with your interpretation (I did before seeing the B&C thread I mentioned) I think better clarification would be good for this. One player from my area agreed with me; I'll check others for the same situation. I'd ask previously any player about that so I wouldn't build any strategy around it, of course.
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AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 03:42:27
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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"the CT(RG) rule says ANY UNIT CONTAINING MODELS (key phrase here) with bulky/very bulky do not benefit from stealth or scout"
1. The IC has the rule.
2. During deployment he joins a unit containing models with the Bulky rule.
3. After Deployment, you make Scout redeploys. Other units able to Scout redeploy. The IC "do(es) not benefit", as he is currently part of a unit containing Bulky models, so cannot redeploy.
Moderator note: Battle Brothers in Allied Transports is tangential, but off topic, and both sides of that argument have more than adequately been expressed. Anyone else continuing that digression in this thread will be suspended.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 14:38:31
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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Mannahnin wrote:"the CT( RG) rule says ANY UNIT CONTAINING MODELS (key phrase here) with bulky/very bulky do not benefit from stealth or scout"
1. The IC has the rule.
2. During deployment he joins a unit containing models with the Bulky rule.
3. After Deployment, you make Scout redeploys. Other units able to Scout redeploy. The IC "do(es) not benefit", as he is currently part of a unit containing Bulky models, so cannot redeploy.
Moderator note: Battle Brothers in Allied Transports is tangential, but off topic, and both sides of that argument have more than adequately been expressed. Anyone else continuing that digression in this thread will be suspended.
My point in the other interpretation is that when you get the CT ( RG), you get these new rules, as if they were written in your character. I.e. a Libby with CT ( RG) gets Scout and T1 Stealth in it's profile. Then, having it during deploy time, it would confer it to other people. Although that can be a wrong view of the rules.
From another perspective: Shrike gives Stealth (the full one) to any unit he joins (even Bulky ones) because he already has it in his profile, not because of CT ( RG), right? My take in this is that an IC would get the same thing from CT ( RG) - the Scout and T1 Steath rules in it's profile. If I joined a Bulky squad another IC with innate Scout rule (like Shrike's Stealth, without needing CT ( RG)), they would receive it, yes?
Probably that's where I'm wrong... The CT ( RG) does not confer the rules per se, but the permission to use them within those limitations. That's what the real thing is?
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AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 15:19:29
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
Netherlands
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I did not get that text xD
But yes, Shrike gives Stealth no matter how bulky they are.
I didn't even notice it, so that might make him more attractive.
Now I want a Shrike ánd Korvydae-model.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/16 18:27:41
Subject: Raven guard scouting land raiders?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Macclesfield, UK
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Vector Strike wrote: Sothas wrote:Right, centurions/termies have bulky/very bulky which don't benefit. And IC joins the unit and is now part of that unit. The rule says that if a unit contains models with bulky/very bulky then the unit doesn't benefit. There are models in the unit that have bulky/very bulky. The IC is a part of that unit so he no longer benefits.
Looking at a thread in B&C, I get another interpretation:
1. The Bulky unit does not receive the T1 Stealth and Scout rules by themselves. Ok.
2. A footslogging IC (non-termie) receives both rules because he's not Bulky. Ok.
3. When an IC joins the Bulky unit, the unit gets the Scout and Stealth rules because they come from the IC, not from the unit itself. So, these Scout and Stealth rules are now part of the IC, and he shares them with his new unit. They're not the CT ( RG) rules anymore, because choosing your detachment is the very first thing you do in the game (as BRB, page 424, Game Summary). Explanation below.
4. When you choose your army, you have to separate detachments, allies, and stuff. The SM codex says ( pg. 77) that you choose your Chapter Tactics in this phase of the game - before even rolling for mission. Until now, nothing is joined to anything; it's just the army list, with Primary detachment (and a second at 2000+), Allies detachment(s) and Fortification(s).
5. You only deploy your army (and join units) after many steps, including Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers. Now, any unit that has the CT rules does not 'lose' them, because you cannot make any change in the army list now (it is set as the very first thing in the game). The Scout and Stealth rules are now intrinsic to the unit (the IC); the CT ( RG) part was already checked for each unit when you chose the RG detachment.
6. When you join the IC to any unit, it's Scout and T1 Stealth special rules are shared with the joined unit. So, joining a non-termie, non- JP Libby to a unit of Assault Termies inside (or not) their dedicated LR, gives it (or them, if inside the LR) the special rules. The Assault Termies unit did not receive the Scout and T1 Stealth rules when you chose your army, but from that moment on they can receive it from any IC that joins them, providing such IC was not Bulky the time you chose your army (the list cannot be changed after you select it, right?)
Of course I can be mistaken, but that's another PoV about this point.
P.S. Curiously, the CT ( RG) does not prohibit Extremely Bulky units to get Scout and T1 Stealth... do SM have any unit like that in FW?
The problem is the rule says that units that include MODELS with the bulky or very bulky rule do not get it. In essence it doesn't matter that the IC has it because Centurians/Termies are MODELS with the bulky/very bulky rule that are part of the unit. Therefore the unit does not get it. Unfortunate, but the wording is clear when you read it over a few times.
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