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Pistols count as an extra weapon in melee.

I don't have problems with many of the things in 8th that others do.
Many are just hard counters to another.
If you build a balanced list there isn't this absolute fear of what will come.
Examples...
Who truly fears the cannons..huge monsters and single uber characters.
Who truly fears the most destructive of spells...the 500+ point deathstars.
If you have an uber character on a dragon and your opponent has a cannon, it now means that your character isn't going to just go flying everywhere an anywhere he wants.
Don't want 1/3 of your army getting wiped out by spells...take smaller units leaving more targets. there is only 12 magic dice max.
Steadfast makes things challenging but it levels out those poor units like skeletons and clanrats (just for example) that are just getting stomped by heavy and monstrous cavalry. How many times would you see clanrats not break versus a unit of heavy cav without steadfast? they are bound to lose by 3 or 4.
Flanks are still highly viable. 1 rank fights on the flank vs your 2 and they won't get parry saves.
Is it a perfect system...no, they never are. But we find it to be lots of fun and leaves plenty of room for tactical play.
Our games are rarely one sided except when the dice gods hate you all day.

but dwarfs for example don't have deathstars , nor monsters , nor magic and if they take small units they get destroyed easier. And if something forces those small units up the field your opponent will focus on the one with the BSB , runelords anyway . the only thing different is going to be them having an easier time to kill of their units.

I just started , but I don't think there is a different way to play dwarfs then a care park.

The edition isn't bad. If played intelligently, 8th is an amazing edition. It's just the players who ruin it.

If played intelligently, it has minimal flaws, I.E. Steadfast, and the sixth spells.

However, both of those are easily dealt with.

Steadfast is done by intelligent gameplay. Whittling down the unit enough before you charge. And magic is inherently random. I've had a dwellers kill 1 out of 20 glade guard before. You can't fix the magic system without breaking it. It has to be random, you organise the spells/spell generation, it stops being it, and becomes something else.

Given recent debates I feel the need to post that I agree 100% with Peasant.
(DukeRustfield's first response was also spot on.)

And magic is inherently random. I've had a dwellers kill 1 out of 20 glade guard before.

Good thing all armies played are made out of high I elfs.

Makumba wrote:

And magic is inherently random. I've had a dwellers kill 1 out of 20 glade guard before.

Good thing all armies played are made out of high I elfs.

Good thing Dwellers targets strength. <3

Which counting actualy usable units elf use more with str 4 or higher . Dwarfs take what hammerers . WE alone have different type of wood spirits with str 4 or higher.

Of the killer spells, the two that really need to die are P.Sun & Mindrazzor.

The first because it can feasibly hit your opponent's entire battleline and targets initiative, which is a huge kick in the nutts to about a full third or more the armies in the game... (TK's, VC's, Dwarfs, Lizzies, Ogres, Orc-centric O&G's, Nurgle Daemons)
That's 6 entire armies and an entire subset of a 7th that can pretty much instantly lose 2/3rd's or more of their army to a gimmicky spell.

Mindrazzor is just plain cheap, especially since GW seems to constantly flip-flop in their FAQ's over weather or not a unit can benefit from their General's Inspiring Presence rule to gain an instant S9/10.


The rest of the killer spells while hugely annoying, especially when just brainlessly 5/6-diced can be somewhat mitigated to some degree or another.
Final Trans for example is obnoxious, but it's only ever a 33% average of the unit that will fall to it. (and characters at least need a 6 to be hit by it)
Pit while still a PITA for low initiative armies, only uses the small template and can't run across your entire army.
Dwellers is rude to low strength units, but outside of elves, most of your elite units have base S4 or better.
13th only effects infantry.

Instant kill spells may still be 'bad' in general for the game as it's simply a lazy mechanic, (especially the instant knocking off of full wound characters), and I'm hoping that 9th at least tones them down, (maybe characters only take a single wound, or else spells like Pit/Dwellers can't hurt monstrous characters, etc...)

P.Sun especially & Mindrazzor need some serious nerfing though.

Instant kill spells may still be 'bad' in general for the game as it's simply a lazy mechanic, (especially the instant knocking off of full wound characters), and I'm hoping that 9th at least tones them down, (maybe characters only take a single wound, or else spells like Pit/Dwellers can't hurt monstrous characters, etc...)

Won't that make things like Gutstars return with a vengeance?

Of course it would.

Chosenstar was the tactic at the time. That was the first real star. Because they had crazy good stats and could shrug off most mega spells. Just as points denial they were really difficult and backed up by a zillion double attacking marauders with 1 mark that cost 20 or whatever for an entire unit.

You can't just pull out mega spells without buffing something else. War machines still aren't a solid counter to them. A gutstar wouldn't care if you have 2 cannons.

There are benefits for putting tons of troops in a unit. Buffs, magic items (like banners), LD from chars, steadfast, point denial, hitting power.

The detriment of having tons of troops in a unit is debuff, harder to maneuver, easier to template, mega spells. Yeah, you can be flanked and such, but you can just turn and kill them unless they are also significant.

Makumba wrote:
Which counting actualy usable units elf use more with str 4 or higher . Dwarfs take what hammerers . WE alone have different type of wood spirits with str 4 or higher.

Elves make up for their low strength in other areas, such as their high Initiative. They might lose half the models in a unit to Dwellers, but they'll only lose a sixth of those hit by Purple Sun.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Of the killer spells, the two that really need to die are P.Sun & Mindrazzor.

The first because it can feasibly hit your opponent's entire battleline and targets initiative, which is a huge kick in the nutts to about a full third or more the armies in the game... (TK's, VC's, Dwarfs, Lizzies, Ogres, Orc-centric O&G's, Nurgle Daemons)
That's 6 entire armies and an entire subset of a 7th that can pretty much instantly lose 2/3rd's or more of their army to a gimmicky spell.

Mindrazzor is just plain cheap, especially since GW seems to constantly flip-flop in their FAQ's over weather or not a unit can benefit from their General's Inspiring Presence rule to gain an instant S9/10.


The rest of the killer spells while hugely annoying, especially when just brainlessly 5/6-diced can be somewhat mitigated to some degree or another.
Final Trans for example is obnoxious, but it's only ever a 33% average of the unit that will fall to it. (and characters at least need a 6 to be hit by it)
Pit while still a PITA for low initiative armies, only uses the small template and can't run across your entire army.
Dwellers is rude to low strength units, but outside of elves, most of your elite units have base S4 or better.
13th only effects infantry.

Instant kill spells may still be 'bad' in general for the game as it's simply a lazy mechanic, (especially the instant knocking off of full wound characters), and I'm hoping that 9th at least tones them down, (maybe characters only take a single wound, or else spells like Pit/Dwellers can't hurt monstrous characters, etc...)

P.Sun especially & Mindrazzor need some serious nerfing though.

Really? Mindrazor? A spell that targets ONE unit for ONE turn. You know how to stop mindrazor? Don't charge the unit that has it. It is nowhere near as bad as spells like dwellers or final trans where it is just roll dice and remove models.

Yeah, I feel kind of dissapointed to be honest. Not once hav I seen one of these game winning super spells actually happen in roughly 50 games of 8th ed. Sure, Iv'e seen them cripple a unit here and there, block advances with a vortex eslewhere, but never seen a game decided on one spell.

Wow, you would have to be a fool to have one single unit be soooo essesntial to the success of your army that defeat is a forgone conclusion if a nasty spell kills a third of it. But we arent fools. Right guys? Right?!

Orock wrote:
It must stink to play dwarves then if magic is so op

Cannons are pretty good too.....

Eh, the problem with Mindrazor is that it's very "point and click". Cast it on practically any unit save for something like Zombies and they'll wreck face. Some units benefit from it more than others, sure, but every unit will really benefit from it, crucially, against any enemy unit. Change it to allow the enemy his normal armour save, and suddenly it's not so useful. You'll have to pick your fights a lot more intelligently.

By the way ... to those who think that steadfast is bad
It is a mandatory rule as soon as you include step-up and 2+ ranks of attacks plus ASF / Hatred being handed out like candy
Otherwise Horde / Regular armies would be completely unplayable against high damage output ones

I had a real flash of inspiration on how to improve the whole thing. Will never happen but here goes.

Collapse ALL special rules, attacks, stuff like that into a single stat line and set of rules for moving, ranged combat, magic and melee. (and even up the points values to suit)
No more rules lawyering.
No more confusion.

e.g. roll stomps & impact hits into the attacks stat.
Roll all that ASF and re-rolls into the initiative stat.
No need for mega long rule books except the fluff and pictures.
Nice, understandable game.

GW can still come up with new models and new uber stat lines for them. And the game becomes much more accessible, simple and comprehensible.

That doesn't sound appealing at all. While there could be some cleaning up of rules in general, I don't think oversimplifying things to that degree is the way to go.

 Evertras wrote:
That doesn't sound appealing at all. While there could be some cleaning up of rules in general, I don't think oversimplifying things to that degree is the way to go.

Agreed. Respectfully I would not play the game if they tried to make it like that. Special rules and such are fun.

TanKoL wrote:
By the way ... to those who think that steadfast is bad
It is a mandatory rule as soon as you include step-up and 2+ ranks of attacks plus ASF / Hatred being handed out like candy
Otherwise Horde / Regular armies would be completely unplayable against high damage output ones

7th edition in a nutshell, nobody took major troop blocks and only heavy cavalry/herohammer blocks in order to flank and instantly kill entire units.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
By the way ... to those who think that steadfast is bad
It is a mandatory rule as soon as you include step-up and 2+ ranks of attacks plus ASF / Hatred being handed out like candy
Otherwise Horde / Regular armies would be completely unplayable against high damage output ones

7th edition in a nutshell, nobody took major troop blocks and only heavy cavalry/herohammer blocks in order to flank and instantly kill entire units.

Steadfast by itself isn't bad. But Steadfast combo'd with the BSB and/or General's Ld is simply too much...

While it's dumb that 5 dudes on horses could kill 7 enemies and then run down the other 33 guys, it's also equally stupid that your giant-a$$ dragon massacres 20 guys, but the remaining 10 are automatically Ld10 because they have a rank.

Steadfast honestly shouldn't apply when 50% or more of your unit just got butchered in a single round - outside of Unbreakable or something, you should be running like a scared little elf when that happens!
It's also a kick in the pants to Undead who gain absolutely 0 benefits from being Steadfast. Again, at the very least, being Steadfast for them should at least mitigate some of their added crumble wounds.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
By the way ... to those who think that steadfast is bad
It is a mandatory rule as soon as you include step-up and 2+ ranks of attacks plus ASF / Hatred being handed out like candy
Otherwise Horde / Regular armies would be completely unplayable against high damage output ones

7th edition in a nutshell, nobody took major troop blocks and only heavy cavalry/herohammer blocks in order to flank and instantly kill entire units.

Steadfast by itself isn't bad. But Steadfast combo'd with the BSB and/or General's Ld is simply too much...

While it's dumb that 5 dudes on horses could kill 7 enemies and then run down the other 33 guys, it's also equally stupid that your giant-a$$ dragon massacres 20 guys, but the remaining 10 are automatically Ld10 because they have a rank.

Steadfast honestly shouldn't apply when 50% or more of your unit just got butchered in a single round - outside of Unbreakable or something, you should be running like a scared little elf when that happens!
It's also a kick in the pants to Undead who gain absolutely 0 benefits from being Steadfast. Again, at the very least, being Steadfast for them should at least mitigate some of their added crumble wounds.

Wonder what it would be like if Steadfast instead cut any loss by 50%. So dragon wins by 4, but Steadfast so it's only 2. Still shaken, but not obliterated. Probably not enough in the long run.

Doesn't work Evertras, when facing angry Corsairs or stuff like that, you might be looking at 20 dead bodies

Yeah, it just seems to be complicating things further anyway. To be fair, if you're losing by 20, at THAT point it really feels like running isn't an unreasonable outcome.

 Evertras wrote:
Yeah, it just seems to be complicating things further anyway. To be fair, if you're losing by 20, at THAT point it really feels like running isn't an unreasonable outcome.

Yeah. I think the idea behind Steadfast was sound as I never used large blocks of infantry in 7th but they've swung too far in the other direction. When giant nuke entire units spells are the main counter you're concept could use some work.

I'm not sure they've swung TOO far, but maybe a touch toned down somehow. It's just such a tricky balance, since big infantry blocks do need a reason to exist and the idea is solid. I think I'd vote to not even touch it unless someone came up with a fantastic idea, it's something that's at least workable even if it's not ideal right now. Much better than 7th anyway.

 Evertras wrote:
I'm not sure they've swung TOO far, but maybe a touch toned down somehow. It's just such a tricky balance, since big infantry blocks do need a reason to exist and the idea is solid. I think I'd vote to not even touch it unless someone came up with a fantastic idea, it's something that's at least workable even if it's not ideal right now. Much better than 7th anyway.

I think there's a basis in the disruption mechanic to get it right. Perhaps not have being disrupted cancel it completely but impose -'s on the LD check or have each rank in a flanking unit count as two etc.

It needs to be a bigger deal if you allow your unit to be flanked/rear charged.

Yeah, you just want to avoid the giant block of infantry booking it because they got smacked by five guys on horses in the flank who killed a few.

How about the combat res penalties to leadership still apply for flanking and rear? Getting weirdly convoluted again, though. Probably not the thread for all this brainstorming anyway. Or maybe it is. I dunno.

 Evertras wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
By the way ... to those who think that steadfast is bad
It is a mandatory rule as soon as you include step-up and 2+ ranks of attacks plus ASF / Hatred being handed out like candy
Otherwise Horde / Regular armies would be completely unplayable against high damage output ones

7th edition in a nutshell, nobody took major troop blocks and only heavy cavalry/herohammer blocks in order to flank and instantly kill entire units.

Steadfast by itself isn't bad. But Steadfast combo'd with the BSB and/or General's Ld is simply too much...

While it's dumb that 5 dudes on horses could kill 7 enemies and then run down the other 33 guys, it's also equally stupid that your giant-a$$ dragon massacres 20 guys, but the remaining 10 are automatically Ld10 because they have a rank.

Steadfast honestly shouldn't apply when 50% or more of your unit just got butchered in a single round - outside of Unbreakable or something, you should be running like a scared little elf when that happens!
It's also a kick in the pants to Undead who gain absolutely 0 benefits from being Steadfast. Again, at the very least, being Steadfast for them should at least mitigate some of their added crumble wounds.

Wonder what it would be like if Steadfast instead cut any loss by 50%. So dragon wins by 4, but Steadfast so it's only 2. Still shaken, but not obliterated. Probably not enough in the long run.

I actually really like this change. It's simple and makes Steadfast still useful, but not completely overpowered and is beneficial to Unstable units too.

Although it would complicate it further, you could vary the percentage based on flank/rear charges. I.e. Steadfast only cuts losses by 25% if charged in flank or rear.

Okay, because I don't think it's been said yet... Mat Ward writing more Fantasy army books!

1. Daemons going from one extreme to the opposite.

2. High Elves getting an instant hard counter/f-you button to Daemons 2 months later.

3. Dark Elves now looking entirely like "High Elves +1-10" in almost every regard.


More than 6-dicing the FTW spells, I hate rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock hammer... Campaigns & Leagues for example are far less fun when you know your opponent is getting a 'win button', or else is basically 'your army but better'.