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This is no different than a specific rule overriding a general rule.

Rule states you must do X.
Special rule states you may do y instead, therefore breaking the rule 1.

Similarly: Wounds allocated using FF may only be allocated models with the focused save (or worse).
Models using LOS may re-allocate those wounds to the nearest model, therefore breaking the rules for FF.

You may also look at it chronologically
Model is focus fired
Focus fire limits the models that may have wounds allocated to them.
Wounds are allocated
Look Out, Sir kicks in now granting you permission to allocate wounds to the nearest model. Not the nearest model that may have wounds allocated to it, not the nearest model acceptable to the current rules of firing, just the nearest model.

Comparison:
Police Officer tells you "sit down and don't move".
Same Police Officer tells you to stand up 2 seconds later.
What do you do?
You stand up, because your most recent orders override any orders you've been given prior.

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wrong. The correct answer is no, because the rules for LOS say that the wound cannot be re-allocated again.

Oh really, so can you make an LOS without having a wound allocated to the model?

No, you cannot.

Bojazz wrote:
This is no different than a specific rule overriding a general rule.

Rule states you must do X.
Special rule states you may do y instead, therefore breaking the rule 1.

Similarly: Wounds allocated using FF may only be allocated models with the focused save (or worse).
Models using LOS may re-allocate those wounds to the nearest model, therefore breaking the rules for FF.

You may also look at it chronologically
Model is focus fired
Focus fire limits the models that may have wounds allocated to them.
Wounds are allocated
Look Out, Sir kicks in now granting you permission to allocate wounds to the nearest model. Not the nearest model that may have wounds allocated to it, not the nearest model acceptable to the current rules of firing, just the nearest model.

Comparison:
Police Officer tells you "sit down and don't move".
Same Police Officer tells you to stand up 2 seconds later.
What do you do?
You stand up, because your most recent orders override any orders you've been given prior.

Except LOS in no way gives permission to override the restriction listed for FF. It gives permission to over ride line of sight and range, but not FF. Since there is no conflict, they both apply - you can re-allocate the wound (via LOS) but it must still be allocated to a legal model per FF.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wrong. The correct answer is no, because the rules for LOS say that the wound cannot be re-allocated again.

Oh really, so can you make an LOS without having a wound allocated to the model?

No, you cannot.

exactly, so not sure how HJ determined I was wrong in my response to him

You are claiming you cannot attempt multiple LOS (a specific wound) because you don't allocate the wound. I'm claiming you cannot LOS (a specific wound) multiple times because LOS specifically does not allow multiple re-allocations.

 chillis wrote:
What I'm gathering is that the wound is saved or unsaved for LOS to occur.

This is not true. Unsaved Wounds cannot be reallocated by LOS!

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wrong. The correct answer is no, because the rules for LOS say that the wound cannot be re-allocated again.

Oh really, so can you make an LOS without having a wound allocated to the model?

No, you cannot.

exactly, so not sure how HJ determined I was wrong in my response to him

Your original statement:

Of course not, no wound has been "allocated" the next closest model(char or not) so the rules for LOS cannot be used again as the premise for LOS is having a wound allocated to that model.

is incorrect. The reason you cannot is because LOS! says you the wound cannot be reallocated again. Which means that the would was reallocated once.

 Happyjew wrote:

Except LOS in no way gives permission to override the restriction listed for FF. It gives permission to over ride line of sight and range, but not FF. Since there is no conflict, they both apply - you can re-allocate the wound (via LOS) but it must still be allocated to a legal model per FF.

It gives you permission to resolve the wound onto the nearest model. It does not give any restrictions whatsoever other than whatever is closest. How is that not giving you permission? Its saying "hey, you can allocate a wound to that model".

Scenario: 2 man squad is being focus fired. wound is being allocated to a character A who passes LOS to resolve it to nearest model B, who coincidentally is in better cover.
FF says you can't allocate it to anyone but the character. Done. allocated.
LOS says you may resolve it on the nearest model to the character. Done. resolved.

Bojazz wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Except LOS in no way gives permission to override the restriction listed for FF. It gives permission to over ride line of sight and range, but not FF. Since there is no conflict, they both apply - you can re-allocate the wound (via LOS) but it must still be allocated to a legal model per FF.

It gives you permission to resolve the wound onto the nearest model. It does not give any restrictions whatsoever other than whatever is closest. How is that not giving you permission? Its saying "hey, you can allocate a wound to that model".

Scenario: 2 man squad is being focus fired. wound is being allocated to a character A who passes LOS to resolve it to nearest model B, who coincidentally is in better cover.
FF says you can't allocate it to anyone but the character. Done. allocated.
LOS says you may resolve it on the nearest model to the character. Done. resolved.

So where are you getting permission to break FF? LOS is still wound allocation, and there is no specific permission to override FF.

FF says I can't allocate a wound to the model
LOS says I can allocate a wound to the model.
That's pretty obvious permission.

Permission to allocate yes, but not specific permission to override the restriction.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wrong. The correct answer is no, because the rules for LOS say that the wound cannot be re-allocated again.

Oh really, so can you make an LOS without having a wound allocated to the model?

No, you cannot.

exactly, so not sure how HJ determined I was wrong in my response to him

Your original statement:

Of course not, no wound has been "allocated" the next closest model(char or not) so the rules for LOS cannot be used again as the premise for LOS is having a wound allocated to that model.

is incorrect. The reason you cannot is because LOS! says you the wound cannot be reallocated again. Which means that the would was reallocated once.

Again, you are also suffering from the same misunderstanding of the rules as HJ.

LOS is NOT wound allocation. At no point in the rules for LOS does it say or even hint at "allocating" the wound to another model.

Is specifically says to resolve the wound against that model and it says once the wound has "transferred" NOT allocated (or not "transferred")

RAW, there is no Allocation being done in the LOS rules plain and simple as it does specifically say the wound is allocated.

Similarly, Focus Fire restricts your permission to allocate, but does not restrict you from using LOS.

If the book saying "you can allocate a wound to this model" is not enough for you, then why is the book saying "you cannot allocate a wound to this model" enough?

You demand specific permission that allows LOS to ignore FF, but you don't provide specific permission that allows FF to ignore LOS either.

Nowhere does it say "You may not make a LOS attempt against shots with FF". Nor does it say "Wounds cannot be RE-allocated by any means". Nor does it say "You may not use any special rules to override the effects of Focus Fire"

40k-noob wrote:
Again, you are also suffering from the same misunderstanding of the rules as HJ.

LOS is NOT wound allocation. At no point in the rules for LOS does it say or even hint at "allocating" the wound to another model.

Is specifically says to resolve the wound against that model and it says once the wound has "transferred" NOT allocated (or not "transferred")

RAW, there is no Allocation being done in the LOS rules plain and simple as it does specifically say the wound is allocated.

It says - and I'll quote so you don't think I'm making things up -

no further attempts to reallocate it can be made

Please - elaborate on what that means without saying that LOS! is a method of allocation.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Again, you are also suffering from the same misunderstanding of the rules as HJ.

LOS is NOT wound allocation. At no point in the rules for LOS does it say or even hint at "allocating" the wound to another model.

Is specifically says to resolve the wound against that model and it says once the wound has "transferred" NOT allocated (or not "transferred")

RAW, there is no Allocation being done in the LOS rules plain and simple as it does specifically say the wound is allocated.

It says - and I'll quote so you don't think I'm making things up -

no further attempts to reallocate it can be made

Please - elaborate on what that means without saying that LOS! is a method of allocation.

It means that AFTER you LOS roll the die, the owning player can not attempt ANY type of re-allocation of the wound.
And that is it right there folks! That is all it means!

Bojazz wrote:
Similarly, Focus Fire restricts your permission to allocate, but does not restrict you from using LOS.

If the book saying "you can allocate a wound to this model" is not enough for you, then why is the book saying "you cannot allocate a wound to this model" enough?

You demand specific permission that allows LOS to ignore FF, but you don't provide specific permission that allows FF to ignore LOS either.

Nowhere does it say "You may not make a LOS attempt against shots with FF". Nor does it say "Wounds cannot be RE-allocated by any means". Nor does it say "You may not use any special rules to override the effects of Focus Fire"

I don't need to provide specific permission to allow FF to ignore LOS because I'm not claiming it does. You have full permission to re-allocate via LOS, I've never said otherwise. My claim is that since there is no specific permission to override FF, if you do re-allocate, you must still meet the requirements put in place by FF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Again, you are also suffering from the same misunderstanding of the rules as HJ.

LOS is NOT wound allocation. At no point in the rules for LOS does it say or even hint at "allocating" the wound to another model.

Is specifically says to resolve the wound against that model and it says once the wound has "transferred" NOT allocated (or not "transferred")

RAW, there is no Allocation being done in the LOS rules plain and simple as it does specifically say the wound is allocated.

It says - and I'll quote so you don't think I'm making things up -

no further attempts to reallocate it can be made

Please - elaborate on what that means without saying that LOS! is a method of allocation.

It means that AFTER you LOS roll the die, the owning player can not attempt ANY type of re-allocation of the wound.
And that is it right there folks! That is all it means!

Which would include Look Out, Sir.

Well since this is a discussion over wording I figure we may as well have the exact words in front of us.

LOOK OUT SIR: If the unit only consists of characters, a look Out, Sir attempt can still be made, with one character within 6" taking the place of the erstwhile victim if the roll is passed. Only one Look Our, Sir attempt can be made per wound allocated - once the wound has been transferred (or not), no further attempts to reallocate it can be made.

FOCUS FIRE: Your opponent can only allocate wounds to models with a cover save equal to or worse (i.e a higher value than the value stated.

Note that you work out which models in the target unit can have wounds allocated to them at the time the Focus Fire is declared. If the unit subsequently chooses to Go to Ground, this will not alter which models can have Wounds allocated to them even though their cover save has changed.
************************************************************************************
I highlighted two of what I think to be the most important statements. I think that Focus Fire overrides look out sir because it specifically says that your opponent can only allocate wounds to models with a cover save equal or worse. Plus the book refers to look out sir as reallocating the wound, aaaaaand transfer and allocate are fairly similar words.

You CAN still use look out sir but it has to be a model with a cover save equal to or worse than the original model and within 6".


CHECKMATE ATHEISTS!!!!

The entire rule in exact quotes is highly against forum policy. You should probably remove that post.

That's some gak, I removed most of the rule.

40k-noob wrote:
It means that AFTER you LOS roll the die, the owning player can not attempt ANY type of re-allocation of the wound.
And that is it right there folks! That is all it means!

You missed a word - further.
If you cannot attempt to do something further that means that you were already doing it.
Which means LOS! is a form of allocation - IE it's reallocating.

Bojazz wrote:
As for the turbo-boosting - Unlike running, I don't see any wording in the rule-book that says bikes have to turbo-boost as a unit. It would appear as though you CAN turbo boost a single bike in a squad.

I agree with this, after all Flyers can move at different rates while in a squadron, and are treated independently when it comes to shooting etc. just makes sense.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 chillis wrote:
What I'm gathering is that the wound is saved or unsaved for LOS to occur.

This is not true. Unsaved Wounds cannot be reallocated by LOS!

"when a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters..."

That was removed in the FAQ. LOS! never applies to unsaved wounds any more.

ohhhh ok thank you

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
And the wound is allocated to the RP. (FF conditions met.) The wound is then reallocated using LOS to a legal target for LOS. No different than Precision shots/strikes.

Which would be on that fits the cover save restriction from FF. The shooting player declares FF. His opponent can only allocate to certain models. If I declare "FF 5+" you (my opponent) can only allocate wounds to models with a 5+ or worse cover save. If you try to LOS to a model with a 4+ cover save, you are breaking the rules of FF by allocating a wound to an illegal model.

You are not allocating, LOS is allocating the wound and you have no control over where that wound goes. LOS breaks line of sight, range, precision. The only thing LOS cannot stop is a Vindicare.

You being the opponent allocate wounds. As per Focus fire you cannot allocate wounds to a model with x cover save (so 4plus for skilled rider and jink) Look out sir is a clear re allocation of the wound (you cannot re allocate again, clearly you have re allocated once or the again part would never come into effect).

As per the above rules, you cannot re allocate wounds to x cover save, you would not be pass a wound from a rune priest on bike with 5+ jink to a model with 4+ jink.

If you are arguing that LOS does not re allocate wounds then what is there to stop you doing more then one LOS per wound.

fragile, as you just said it has permission to ignore LOS range and prescision not focus fire. It is possibly a hole in the rules as LOS can usually avoid the rules of a 'normal' shooting attack but RAW it is clear that you cannot LOS FF wounds to a model with a better cover save.

Asked the local Games Workshop store for their input. I know its far from an official ruling, but this was what they had to say.

"If I was ruling it in a tournament, I would allow it."

"Focus fire merely supersedes regular wound allocation rules, which requires wounds to be allocated to the closest model. As LOS! supersedes regular wound allocation rules, I see no reason it would not overrule modified wound allocation rules."

Looks like they're going with "as intended".

Both Look Out Sir and Focus Fire are basic rules. One is not more specific then the other.


The wound as been reallocated once by LOS. White it may not say "again" or "The wound has been reallocated." it does say "Only one LookOut, Sir attempt can be made per Wound allocated - once the Wound has been transferred (or not), no further* attempts to reallocate it can be made."

Further attempts = attempts in addition to this one. If the LOS role is successful the wound will have been reallocated.


Where things get sticky for me is focus fire. Focus fire only prevents your opponent from allocating wounds to select models. However your opponent does not allocate the wounds caused by your shooting attack, you do. Focus Fire, as its written, only prevents things like LOS and not the normal wound allocation. This is clearly not the Intent of the rule. Any further application of this rule, as a result, must also be a RAI discussion.

RAW, no you absolutely cannot LOS a focused fire wound onto a model with a better cover save. RAI I'm not so sure.




*emphasis mine.

The player being shot at/whacked with a pointy stick allocates wounds (with the exception of precision shots/strikes). So, when you allocate the wounds from my shooting, you cannot allocate to models with a cover save better than "X". LOS is still allocation.

 Happyjew wrote:
The player being shot at/whacked with a pointy stick allocates wounds (with the exception of precision shots/strikes). So, when you allocate the wounds from my shooting, you cannot allocate to models with a cover save better than "X". LOS is still allocation.

Nope. "Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit."

If I am being fired at then 'enemy' models are my opponent's, the firing player's, models..

Either the BRB is telling the defending player to allocate wounds to the attacking player's models or the BRB is telling the attacking player to allocate wounds to the defending player's models. Only the latter makes sense. The shooting/attacking player allocates wounds initially.

Focus Fire, like other parts of this book, is written in such a way that you need to read between the lines and figure out hat they really meant.