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 spyguyyoda wrote:

I really, really like Lokhir. I liked him a lot in the last book. In the last book he was more than 15 points too expensive...now that SDC gives scaly skin, he might be worth the 235...but probably not. Comparing him to the useless Fleet Master is useless.

The only problem with the fleet master is that you can't get a good armor save and a ward.
Lokhir show up with the 2+/4++ (regen).

Think about it. I challenge. If you accept, you're giving my unit unbreakable. If you decline, you move to the back, and Lokhir can hit you anyway.

-Matt

One thing that I really dislike is that the Fleetmaster can only take 50 points of magic items.

What? Really? For a Lord costing 15 points more than a Dreadlord--and losing most of the normal options?

Am totally sold on the new DE book to create my fast cav army. Lots of Dark Riders with Crossbows, some Dreadwarlocks or level 1 wizards on horses running around casting the heck out of doombolt. Toss in a Hydra or two for some melee capability and a Dragon and walla! Awesome MSU style army with some shinanigans thrown in to make a cometitive and fun army

I'm personally going to go for the more shooty approach. I'm getting my book this payday. As I understand the Cauldron of Blood works like the Skaven Bell and requires Witch Elves to push it. And -every- list has it so it must be as good.

Problem is....I've got -all- these Spearmen that I wana use as a bunker for my lvl 4 on top of that all my crossbowmen.

 Shadowbrand wrote:
I'm personally going to go for the more shooty approach. I'm getting my book this payday. As I understand the Cauldron of Blood works like the Skaven Bell and requires Witch Elves to push it. And -every- list has it so it must be as good.

Problem is....I've got -all- these Spearmen that I wana use as a bunker for my lvl 4 on top of that all my crossbowmen.

The Cauldron's not quite like the Bell. It functions as a chariot, so it can operate accordingly on it's own and doesn't need anything to push it. It can, however, join units as if it were a character and it gives buffs to the unit it's in, so it's best to put it in a unit.

Spearmen and Crossbowmen still work pretty well, though I'd recommend proxying your Spearmen as Bleakswords. These guys have Parry and still make for a cheap, potentially sacrificial, mage bunker. Crossbowmen have gone up significantly in points, for upgrades that they'll ideally never use, but it's nice to have those benefits when the unit does see combat. The unit can take a magic banner now though, so a large(ish) unit with the Flaming Banner will be awesome for taking out stuff in buildings. I still plan to use both my Spearmen (as Bleakswords) and Crossbows in most of my lists.

Honestly had the older sprues come with more swords they would of been Bleakswords off the bat. I mean the old book has an option for it.

Anyways another question for folks who already have the book.... Do I -have- to take Witch Elves/Cauldron? I play in a somewhat competitive environment. But my endgame goal is to make the army look good. And win prizes through Sportsmanship/Best painted.





P.S

I use "Have too." As in how much more buffed are my guys if I take it? I also simply just don't know where i'd fit the girls into my idea for an overall army.

 Shadowbrand wrote:
I'm personally going to go for the more shooty approach. I'm getting my book this payday. As I understand the Cauldron of Blood works like the Skaven Bell and requires Witch Elves to push it. And -every- list has it so it must be as good.

Problem is....I've got -all- these Spearmen that I wana use as a bunker for my lvl 4 on top of that all my crossbowmen.

The cauldron doesn't need to be pushed.
It's a M5 chariot that can march, and can join any unit. Any unit that it joins re-rolls all failed to wound rolls.
It can join any unit.
Non-witch elves get a 6+ ward.

For an off the wall choice, how about a cauldron in a unit of cold one knights? Give the Knights the banner of swiftness.
The unit is slowed from M7 to M6; but picks up MR1, 6+ ward, the whole unit gains frenzy from witches brew (including the cold ones), and they still have swift strider.
A unit of 12 knights (210mm wide):
On the charge, they'd do D6 S5 impact hits, get 15 to 18 S6 lance attacks, 15 to 18 S4 cold one attacks, 4 S3 poison attacks and 4 S4 poison attacks.
Everything but the cold one attacks would be re-rolling to hit and re-rolling to wound.
Unlike the typical witch elf blob, You've got 2+ armor protecting hitters, and you're a bit faster on the charge (M6 swiftstrider) and WS5.
It's also a bit cheaper than you're typical witch blob (470-580 points for 40 to 50 witches vs 405 for 12 knights with full command and magic banner).

Or, how about a cauldron in a Sisters of Slaughter blob? +1 to wound against anything S4 or more, along with re-rolls to wound is pretty good (you wound anything T5 or more 55% of the time, vs witches with poison at ~40%)
It's less damage than a witch horde (no poison) but strips rank bonus, strips parry, and is WS6 (hit more, get hit less). With a 4+ ward it's more survivable than the witches in combat.

Really, anything you stick the cauldron in gets better.

Better go buy some more Knights.

On the subject of Cauldrons in random stuff, what do people think about sticking the Cauldron in a unit of Corsairs with AHWs.

It's what I've be running as of late, since I have a big horde of Corsairs and not as much of anything else save for Crossbows, and it's done pretty well. They get one less attack than Witch Elves and don't have poison, but on the other hand you get a 4+ save. A 4+/6++ is pretty survivable, and better than a 5++ most of the time. You can also actually use the Cauldron's bound spell to boost their frenzy to the level Witch Elves would be at, and you wouldn't get the -3 Ld for frenzy purposes either.

It'd probably need (more) buffing, but I think it could work reasonably well. At the very least it's a good alternative whilst I find the money to buy loads of Witch Elves, if indeed I ever do.

Hellebron backed up by either a life or light caster could be unstoppable. I really like her. I played a game with her the other day and she killed a DP, 3 skull crushers in one go, and a chimera. There is no better combat character right now in the game. Make her ws10 and i10 and get off pha's? She would be untouchable. Or, make her t7 and regrow wounds. Plenty of ways to keep her alive and chucking out 8-10 s10 attacks a phase.

 gmaleron wrote:
... and walla!

... I think you mean, "voila."

furbyballer wrote:
Hellebron backed up by either a life or light caster could be unstoppable. I really like her. I played a game with her the other day and she killed a DP, 3 skull crushers in one go, and a chimera. There is no better combat character right now in the game. Make her ws10 and i10 and get off pha's? She would be untouchable. Or, make her t7 and regrow wounds. Plenty of ways to keep her alive and chucking out 8-10 s10 attacks a phase.

I'm not convinced.
My vampire lord owns her.
Barded steed, heavy armor, shield, night shroud, sword of anti-heroes, talisman of endurance.
Powers: Dreadnight, Beguile, Aura of Dark Majesty, Red Fury.

1+ armor, 5+ ward, 1 opponent tests at Ld-4 or re-rolls hits. Opponents in base to base lose ASF and Gain ASL. Opponents in Base to Base lose strength bonuses from all weapons (magic or otherwise).
I'm WS9, and gain +1 A/S for each enemy character touching, which is at least 1.
So I strike 1st with at least 6 S6 attacks; hit on 3's, wound on 2's and you get no save if on foot, and a 5+ if with cauldron.
That should kill her on the charge.
If by some chance she survives; she gets 6 +D3 S4 attacks, hitting on 4's (and unless she passes Ld-4, she is re-rolling successes), wounding on 5+ (no poison, as she has magic weapons) and I save on 2+ followed by 5++.

My plan for killing Hellebron is to throw a big unit of spirit hosts and/or hex wraiths into the fight, along with the vampire lord to challenge.

Vampires, and Chaos can still take her in combat. Chaos does it with the 3++ ward re-roll 1's, though any guy with ASF and the flame breathe can do it too.
For that matter, an ogre firebelly has a shot at taking her out, all he needs it the sword of swiftness.

She's good, but she's a glass cannon. Also, at her cost and LD10, she is either your general, or you don't have a wizard lord. You cannot afford a dreadlord, helebron and a sorceress lord.

-Matt

I noticed that the entry for dark steeds in the character section says it is "fast cavalry" does that mean that if I mount a character on one it stays fast cav, and can join other fast cav without them losing the rule?

Yes any character on a steed now has the fast cav rule

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 spyguyyoda wrote:

I really, really like Lokhir. I liked him a lot in the last book. In the last book he was more than 15 points too expensive...now that SDC gives scaly skin, he might be worth the 235...but probably not. Comparing him to the useless Fleet Master is useless.

The only problem with the fleet master is that you can't get a good armor save and a ward.
Lokhir show up with the 2+/4++ (regen).

Think about it. I challenge. If you accept, you're giving my unit unbreakable. If you decline, you move to the back, and Lokhir can hit you anyway.

-Matt

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about...there's more than one problem with the fleetmaster. You've mentioned one of them, but he's also just too expensive. Lokhir is also good. But he's still very expensive for what he does. Now, the gap between his cost and his benefit is much closer than in the last book, but he's still a bit much...

I've seen people repeatedly say that if the fleet master kills his opponent in a challenge the unit becomes unbreakable.
That's only half the rule. The first half, says if he is in a challenge, or if he kills an opponent in the challenge.
Simply being in a challenge is enough to make the unit unbreakable.
Given that Lokhir has special combat rules for when he's not in a challenge, he's a win-win.
-Matt

Sword of anti heroes is every character in the unit. Not in base, it's better than that.

TCWarRoom wrote:
Sword of anti heroes is every character in the unit. Not in base, it's better than that.

Every enemy in base with you or your unit.
You don't get squat for my slaan in the 2nd rank.

-Matt

Howz about Assassins? What are everyones thoughts on them.
And if they were to run one, how would they kit them out?

Overall the book appears to have lots of solid viable options. I hate elves in general, but it's a solid choice for anyone that's played them or is going to play them. There are a variety of good options, and I like the balance of it. Some things will be exploited (Such as anything Witchy) but overall a good set of rules.

Hydras aren't AS good, but are still decent.
They got the Bolt Thrower kick that HE got (Allowing 4 of them)
Hatred (HE) seems a serious slap in the face of HE since they also were given ASF. (Not that I'm complaining, as stated before, I dislike ALL elves. )

Overall I like it, I like the fluff, and the models are incredible. I'll be mixing those Dark Rider horses with Hellstriders for some seriously interesting Marauder Horsemen, nice.

Triple_double_U wrote:
Howz about Assassins? What are everyones thoughts on them.
And if they were to run one, how would they kit them out?

I see a few options.
Manbane, extra hand weapon. Attach to shades. The thrown weapon he comes with lets the shades stand and fire at short range. 4 S4 attacks, with poison and re-rolls to hit, get +1 to wound and re-roll 1's to wound. It's enough to drop an ogre. The assassin can split off and charge softer targets leaving the shades behind.

Assassin Spam. The Hidden rules now do not limit you to 1 hidden assassin per unit. You could have a couple of assassins pop out of the same unit; effectively a stealth death star. You reveal at the start of the phase now (or start of your own movement). It would be a pretty mean surprise to have ~3 assassins pop up and go, and here's another 12 S4 attacks with killing blow you didn't plan on...
Between poison and manbane, 3 assassins put ~6 wounds toughness 6 to toughness 10.

As far as magic gear, 2 points gives you a bonus attack. It's tough to find something better than that, given that you can get +1 to wound, killing blow and already have re-rolls to hit, and re-roll 1's to wound.
I don't think that a 4+ ward is enough to keep him alive. I think that Sword of Anti-heroes is a good idea, as is a no armor save sword (obsidian blade).

I'd run either a tooled up assassin, or a trio with just basic gear.
Actually, a Triad attached to shades so they gain the position of scouting is pretty brutal.
An assassin star army can make a beast wizard pretty happy. (7 S7 attacks each, re-rolling to hit, re-rolling to wound, with poison and ASF). Throw in a couple of hydras and call it a theme.

-Matt

Dreadspears or Bleakswords then? Is parry really better than an extra rank of attacks (particularly if those attacks are augmented).

Also - How do you get Witch Elves anywhere near combat?

Triple_double_U wrote:
Howz about Assassins? What are everyones thoughts on them.
And if they were to run one, how would they kit them out?

Assassins are actually alright now, in my opinion, thanks to all the new options they got. They're still not competitive, but they're a cool thing to run every now and again.

I'd use the following: Sword of Anti-Heroes, Charmed Shield/Dragonbane Gem, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dark Venom.

That's 160pts worth of character-killing goodness, which is what an Assassin should be, in my opinion. Against a character, you get 4 WS9 S5 attacks with re-rolls to hit, re-rolls of 1 to wound, Poison and KB that force the target to re-roll successful Ward Saves. The Charmed Shield/Dragonbane Gem is just to fill points and may come in hand once in a while.

 The Shadow wrote:

Triple_double_U wrote:
Howz about Assassins? What are everyones thoughts on them.
And if they were to run one, how would they kit them out?

Assassins are actually alright now, in my opinion, thanks to all the new options they got. They're still not competitive, but they're a cool thing to run every now and again.

I'd use the following: Sword of Anti-Heroes, Charmed Shield/Dragonbane Gem, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dark Venom.

That's 160pts worth of character-killing goodness, which is what an Assassin should be, in my opinion. Against a character, you get 4 WS9 S5 attacks with re-rolls to hit, re-rolls of 1 to wound, Poison and KB that force the target to re-roll successful Ward Saves. The Charmed Shield/Dragonbane Gem is just to fill points and may come in hand once in a while.

You can't take a charmed shield because you can't buy armor. You also don't get "poison" with magic attacks, so it's just manbane and killing blow, is is most likely better; more chances at killing blow. Totally take the manbane. With S5 you'll be wounding 2+ or 3+ and re-rolling 1's.

-Matt

From what I hear, Shadowblade got nerfed slightly (apparently he can't hid in the enemy enemy more), but I'm new to WHFB and am planning on starting a DE army, so that's what I read on some tactica articles I found across the internet.

 DrSchwartz wrote:
From what I hear, Shadowblade got nerfed slightly (apparently he can't hid in the enemy enemy more), but I'm new to WHFB and am planning on starting a DE army, so that's what I read on some tactica articles I found across the internet.

The nerf doesn't matter when nobody uses him. But no, he can't. He just has a rule that says, if your opponent has an item that forces you to reveal where assassins are hiding, you say he is, but not where.

 Flashman wrote:
Dreadspears or Bleakswords then? Is parry really better than an extra rank of attacks (particularly if those attacks are augmented).

Also - How do you get Witch Elves anywhere near combat?

Movement banner for the Witches definitely helps and I think the parry save is worth it for the bleakswords. Fighting in an extra rank is good but if you use them as an anvil like i do, you want the sword and board.

 nathan2004 wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Dreadspears or Bleakswords then? Is parry really better than an extra rank of attacks (particularly if those attacks are augmented).

Also - How do you get Witch Elves anywhere near combat?

Movement banner for the Witches definitely helps and I think the parry save is worth it for the bleakswords. Fighting in an extra rank is good but if you use them as an anvil like i do, you want the sword and board.

I'd rather have the 4+ armor corsairs over the 5+/6++ bleaks.
vs S3 or S4, armor is better, vs S5 it's the same (though parry gets negated by some attacks). Against S6, parry is "better" but by the time you taking S6 hits, you have bigger problems.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Triple_double_U wrote:
Howz about Assassins? What are everyones thoughts on them.
And if they were to run one, how would they kit them out?

Assassins are actually alright now, in my opinion, thanks to all the new options they got. They're still not competitive, but they're a cool thing to run every now and again.

I'd use the following: Sword of Anti-Heroes, Charmed Shield/Dragonbane Gem, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dark Venom.

That's 160pts worth of character-killing goodness, which is what an Assassin should be, in my opinion. Against a character, you get 4 WS9 S5 attacks with re-rolls to hit, re-rolls of 1 to wound, Poison and KB that force the target to re-roll successful Ward Saves. The Charmed Shield/Dragonbane Gem is just to fill points and may come in hand once in a while.

You can't take a charmed shield because you can't buy armor. You also don't get "poison" with magic attacks, so it's just manbane and killing blow, is is most likely better; more chances at killing blow. Totally take the manbane. With S5 you'll be wounding 2+ or 3+ and re-rolling 1's.

-Matt

It's only Wizards who can't take Magic Armour if they don't have the option, as far as I know.

And I'm fairly sure that, as Poisoned Attacks is a Special Rule, you still get it no matter what weapon you use though I do recall reading otherwise somewhere. Like you say though, it would actually be slightly better to not have Poisoned Attacks.

Page 73 BRB states any spells or magical attacks are unaffected by poisoned attacks (and yes it is to your benefit). Also, I believe he can't choose magic armour because he has no mundane armour (or options) of his own. I can't find the page for that at the moment but I'll edit this when I do.

I stand corrected. Page 500 under choosing magic items does only single out wizards so I see no reason an assassin can't take armour.