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 scommy wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback guys. Certainly an interesting debate.

I reckon if I had 30 spare points, putting a medic could be a go.

I guess it raises the question of bodyguards. Does anyone use them?

A couple of bodyguards with medic/FnP could be interesting (or plain dumb). Getting some of the juicy orders out like BID need LOS which entails some return fire sooner or later.

I am not a fan of carapace armor for 4+. Heck even my 2+ tactical terminators seem to get instakilled easy enough these days.

Edit: The Emperor protects.

Like medics, I use bodyguards from time to time (I use two Necromunda cyber-mastiffs) and like medics they're way too expensive for what they do. Neither of these options are Nork levels of bad (whom I also use from time to time because I hate winning) but they're still pretty terrible. Honestly at current prices there's no upgrade to increase a squad's durability that is remotely worth the points. It's pretty much always more points efficient to use those points on more dudes and guns. If command squads were 10 guys strong they might almost be worth it but even then it would be pretty marginal.

It is demonstrably harder to kill 2 naked PCS than one PCS with a medi pack. Sure the medi pack adds ~33% to survivability, but adding a whole second squad adds ~100% survivability that one of the two officers will survive, and requires at least 2 units of your opponents to shoot at them.

Yes cover will help, but it will help both types as much, and with only a 6" range on the orders, you won't always have decent cover available to you PCS.

Jangustus wrote:
It is demonstrably harder to kill 2 naked PCS than one PCS with a medi pack. Sure the medi pack adds ~33% to survivability, but adding a whole second squad adds ~100% survivability that one of the two officers will survive, and requires at least 2 units of your opponents to shoot at them.

Yes cover will help, but it will help both types as much, and with only a 6" range on the orders, you won't always have decent cover available to you PCS.

This 100% this.

Jangustus wrote:
It is demonstrably harder to kill 2 naked PCS than one PCS with a medi pack. Sure the medi pack adds ~33% to survivability, but adding a whole second squad adds ~100% survivability that one of the two officers will survive, and requires at least 2 units of your opponents to shoot at them.

Yes cover will help, but it will help both types as much, and with only a 6" range on the orders, you won't always have decent cover available to you PCS.

There is something to that.... . But I still haven't moved away from the notion that it can be so easy for your opponent to wipe out an unprotected PCS in one turn with something like boltguns, rendering the command chain fractured before you have even begun.

Which is why having two requires twice the effort from your opponent as opposed to taking a medic which only makes him have to put in an extra 33% effort.

To my experience it depends on the loadout of the CS, for example if they in no cover issuing orders, i'll consider one, but if it was a gunwagon CS, like melta chimera, i wouldn't use him, otherwise he seems like a take for me

 Krellnus wrote:
Which is why having two requires twice the effort from your opponent as opposed to taking a medic which only makes him have to put in an extra 33% effort.

This. There's really no arguing about this, killing twice as many models is harder than getting through 5+ FNP no matter what the situation is. You will lose each individual PCS more easily, but since you have a spare to replace the first one when it dies it takes considerably more total effort to take you to the "I have no PCS anymore" state.

30 points is an astropath, 60% of another 10 man squad, 2 plasma guns, over halfway towards another Chimera, or demo doctrine for vets. It's not worth it to add FNP to a t3 squad with 8 wounds especially when s6+ will instagib the company commander anyways. A company commander is above all else expendable like a common guardsman. The quad melta/plasma CCS is perfect for suicide missions, and my guardsmen are never asked to do anything their flying rodent gak insane leaders wouldn't do.

Hmm... I think I've been convinced to go and get another PCS for my army...

but if nobody minds me posting my own little question on this thread out of curiosity, would anyone buy the medi pack if it was, say, 15 points?

If running a foot list list yes. But then i give my CCS a PF so make of that what you will.

I believe I have a post on the previous page which demonstrates that 5+ FNP save will NOT save a medic-toting PCS from a volley of boltgun fire from your typical 10-man MEQ squad any more than a bare PCS will (which also means that Gauss Weapons, Pulse Rifles, and Shuriken Catapults will nuke them from the table, too). Two PCSs will take more bolter fire to destroy than one with a medic simply because it will require at least two units to butcher both. If a unit of MEQs (because I presume this is where the bolter fire being talked about is coming from) is going to shoot at a PCS it will murder the squad regardless of whether or not it has a medic. Even in cover it's better to have two PCS units hiding. Two PCS squads in cover will take more firepower than one PCS in cover with 5+ FNP. It's one thing to like the model--I love the way medics look mixed around with the troops--but there is little to no argument in favour of the medpack against a second PCS in terms of which is better.

On that note I *might* take a 15pt medic for my CCS when I'm running in on foot and/or with Plasguns.

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:
I believe I have a post on the previous page which demonstrates that 5+ FNP save will NOT save a medic-toting PCS from a volley of boltgun fire from your typical 10-man MEQ squad any more than a bare PCS will (which also means that Gauss Weapons, Pulse Rifles, and Shuriken Catapults will nuke them from the table, too).

I don't think you understand how probability works. If you have an average of 6 wounds against a 5-wound unit there's a reasonable chance of doing less than 5 wounds and having the commander still alive, especially if you account for cover (which you ignored in your analysis). Chance to take four or fewer wounds (keeping the commander alive) against 10 bolter marines at rapid fire range:

No medic, no cover: 2%
No medic, 5+ cover: 25%

Medic, no cover: 25%
Medic, 5+ cover: 65%

So the medic is clearly giving a major increase in the chance that the key model will survive a round of bolter fire. The upgrade costs too many points compared to buying an extra squad, but let's not pretend that it doesn't do anything at all.

General Annoyance wrote:
Hmm... I think I've been convinced to go and get another PCS for my army...

but if nobody minds me posting my own little question on this thread out of curiosity, would anyone buy the medi pack if it was, say, 15 points?

Well I still wouldn't buy it for the PCS, but at 15pts, it would be tempting on the CCS, especially if running multiple special weapons. Let's hope the next codex prices it reasonably.

If we subtract the cost of 4 vets the company commander is a 22 point model. We are debating the pros and cons of giving up the option of a special weapon on a ld9 bs4 squad so we can add 30 points to a 7 point model in order to give a 22 point model fnp when the best way to keep the 22 point model alive is to use chimera wrecks to block los.

A medic is probably one of the worst ways to spend 30 points in the guard book. If they could be attached to blob squad then they would have some use.

Maybe if I made an assault CCS w/ Straken, a priest, and a couple of bodyguards, perhaps with Yarrick or a Lord Commissar tossed in than I would, but for the conventional shooty or support CCS it is a pretty big waste for such a small unit.

Buttons wrote:
Maybe if I made an assault CCS w/ Straken, a priest, and a couple of bodyguards, perhaps with Yarrick or a Lord Commissar tossed in than I would, but for the conventional shooty or support CCS it is a pretty big waste for such a small unit.

See something like that I can see being worth it. Particularly if you plan on having some Allied Independent Characters mixed in as well.

As someone who has not played guard, but is starting to build an army, wouldn't the addition of a medic help with 'slay the warlord'. Yeah, you can have two CCS, but you want one of them to be able to survive a little more. Also, with the majority of armies wielding AP5 weapons as standard, equipping carapace would give your dudes a 50% chance to survive most small arms type weapons. Just some thoughts/questions.

The problem is not just with the effect of the medic and the carapace armor, but the cost vs what else you could get with those points.

By just adding more squads you increase overall survival more than if you beef up one squad.

The slay the warlord part is still valid, but if someone is gunning for that victory point, they are likely to try doing so with a high STR weapon that would cause instant death.

 Musashi363 wrote:
As someone who has not played guard, but is starting to build an army, wouldn't the addition of a medic help with 'slay the warlord'.

Not really. If your opponent wants that VP they're going to kill a CCS no matter what you put on it. Spending a bunch of points on defensive upgrades is just delaying the inevitable a bit. The goal of having a second command squad or carapace/medic/camo is to keep the squad alive to give one last order, not to keep it alive all game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
As someone who has not played guard, but is starting to build an army, wouldn't the addition of a medic help with 'slay the warlord'.

Not really. If your opponent wants that VP they're going to kill a CCS no matter what you put on it. Spending a bunch of points on defensive upgrades is just delaying the inevitable a bit. The goal of having a second command squad or carapace/medic/camo is to keep the squad alive to give one last order, not to keep it alive all game.

This. After revising the use of the medic myself, I've realised that if your opponent really wants to kill your CCS, they will pour their most sophisticated fire into it, all but eliminating the point of the medi pack in the first place. If they weren't bothered, and only occasionly fired some Boltguns or similar at it, then the medi pack helps, only thing is that there are two problems with this. 1: nobody ever ignores your warlord/anchoring unit and 2: it's too expensive for protection against small arms fire - camo cloaks do the job better. Perhaps the medi pack works well against more mundane and un-calculating opponents, but it isn't worth spending 30 points on an upgrade "just in case my opponent is an idiot/doesn't think his moves through well" (maybe worth it at my club, but still... )

As for carapace and cloaks? Carapace is probably not a good idea considering your squad will be shot a lot with powerful weaponry - go for cloaks to give yourself a better survival chance.