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Well, except... they could. Easily. The group that decides what is and is not "heresy" is the Ecclesiarchy.

Guess who the Space Wolves have been shooting at for awhile now?

They also caused more problems for the Imperium at the end of the First Armageddon War (FAW) by not permitting the Grey Knights to exterminate the survivors and departing troops who had been exposed to the taint of Chaos.

Because so many of the vessels got away and then dispersed the people aboard them to other space-stations and planets, the Inquisition was forced to enact Exterminatus on two planets to contain the spread of corruption and destroy two major facilities. The Space Wolves ended up costing the Imperium rather a lot more than they would have had they let the GK be about their business rather than stick their noses in. This besides what the Months of Shame would end up costing the Imperium.

Hey at the rate the Inquistion is driving the Imperium there won't be any humans left! Space Wolves understand this! The Emperor wouldn't want his people slaughtered like this. The Inquisition brought all that upon themselves. I accuse the Inquisition being tainted for their actions. Those at Armageddon whom fought bravely were no heretics for they spilled the blood of heretics in the name of the all father. Also the Grey Knights are just as messed up...they could be installing hope and pride but instead slaughter those who see them while demanding to mind scrub marines who see em. To Morkai with the lot of them!

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

Knowledge of the Daemon-Primarchs cannot be allowed to spread. The taint of Chaos is insidious, and vile, and the servants of the Ruinous Powers are but pawns in their Great Game. Had the tainted been destroyed utterly, there, on Armageddon, greater tragedies might have been prevented... but such a noble goal was undone from within, from quarters unexpected.

Better that a thousand innocents should perish than one guilty walk free.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. A Space Marine's greatest pride is death, his service fulfilled. A Space Marine's greatest shame is death, his duty undone.

Only those who believe in failure are the ones who will find disappointment from having hope. The runious powers thrive on such things so steel thy self brother. The taint of chaos can gather in all weak of will...The Inquisition itself would see us in ruin like the dark gods of chaos would like! Morkai's teeth one who fights with the hope and will for the Imperium to Stand tall dies a hero who will go on to fight along side the Allfather and Russ. For we all know that even in death a space marine still serves.

Hope is the fuel of dreams, of ambitions beyond one's station. That is the ruin of worlds.

Know thy place!

Yet it was by this that the Allfather built the imperium. To spit upon that is to spit upon him and the Imperium of Man itself brother!

Did other Chapters get involved in the conflict, or was it just SW vs. Inquisition? Would it be possible to claim that a particular Chapter stood by the SW? From what I can tell, not much is known about the First War for Armageddon....

What founding were we on by that time?

1st War for Armageddon was 444.M41, which is between the 25th Founding (M40) and 26th Founding (738.M41). So, 25th Founding.

The Months of Shame started following the 1st War of Armageddon. If any other Chapters supported the Space Wolves, the various stories regarding the event don't make any mention of them. It may have been that the SW were the only Chapter still present when things got started, the others having quit the field to go on about their own business. Or it may be that any other Chapters present felt it prudent not to get into a fight with the Grey Knights and the Inquisition.

The fight itself takes place between the SW and the Inquisition/GK, which includes some other naval assets under the command of the Inquisition.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, except... they could. Easily. The group that decides what is and is not "heresy" is the Ecclesiarchy.

Guess who the Space Wolves have been shooting at for awhile now?

While this is true, there have been some steps put forth by Njal and Ragnar Blackmane by sending the Grey Hunter Pack, Jarnhamar. In Blood of Asaheim, our plucky heroes go to a planet run by the Ecclesiarchy and the Sisters of Battle on the verge of destruction by the forces of Chaos.

This is the first book in a trilogy by Chris Wraight, who is by far the best author of the Space Wolves I've seen.

As to the idea of the Ecclesiarchy deeming a first founding chapter heretics would be detrimental for the Imperium as a whole. Let's put it this way, do we really want to back the Wolves into a corner? After a tenuous agreement was settled on by the Wolves and the Inquisition during the Months of Shame, they haven't been back to Fenris because no one really wants to test the promise made by the Wolves when the Inquisition left...

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Hello all,
1) The chapter is 21st Founding, and is plagued by rumors of unorthodox gene-seed contribution, such as Canis Helix or even a traitor legion (Night Lords, Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, etc. all have surprisingly stable gene-seeds, and these were not destroyed after the Heresy). The gene-seed tithe frequently is "lost in transit" or seems tampered with.
2) The chapter has an expansive fiefdom consisting of a large star system containing multiple inhabited worlds, or worse, multiple star systems. Rather than an austere lifestyle, they tend to live like kings on their home worlds. Since the chapter is distributed on multiple worlds, its numbers are not known, but it seems like it may be a bit too large.
3) The chapter tends to indulge the flesh in an inappropriate manner. This includes rumors that the gene-seed and/or physical conditioning and/or psychological conditioning that normally prevents SM from having children didn't exactly work out so well this time. Some individuals are purported to have multiple families and children on different worlds.
4) While excessive violence is sanctioned and even expected, this chapter has an aspect of savagery that smacks of heresy. Ritualized blood sport, claiming of fetishes from corpses, and factions within the chapters that adopt totem animals (reminiscent of Warrior Lodges) are all rumored to exist in the chapter.
5) The chapter has a unique mission: they monomaniacally hunt down and execute hated foes at the expense of towing the Imperial line. Consequently, they routinely ignores distress calls from PDFs, the IG, and the Imperial Navy, and have occasionally even refused orders to contribute troops to High Lords of Terra or the Inquisition itself.

1) Likely to get heavy attention from the Ordo Hereticus, with regular threats of excommunication. One of the best ways to piss off the Inquisition without getting booted from the IOM, imo.
2) Also likely to get attention from the Ordo Hereticus. most likely will ignite civil war, with Imperial Navy and Guard forces trying to reclaim the worlds.
3) Canon says that while this may be possible, it has previously only produced horrors of genetic deformation/degradation. Iirc, one Primarch actually tried this, and failed so bad he excommunicated himself...
4) So long as this is kept under control (such as with BA/SW), the Inquisition will only take occasional glances at their track record. If it starts lashing back at the IOM, it'll result in serious conflict.
5) Again would probably have Ordo Hereticus interest. Likely to see an Inquisitor dispatched to meet the chapter master.

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Did other Chapters get involved in the conflict, or was it just SW vs. Inquisition? Would it be possible to claim that a particular Chapter stood by the SW? From what I can tell, not much is known about the First War for Armageddon....

I don't see why not. As mentioned the Space Wolves are loyal to their friends. Be it Imperial Guard, Civilians, heck even he captains and crews of ships that transport them are considered friends if they help em out! Russ was even friends with the star chart makers(whose official names I can not remember sadly ) and it's bee na friendship to this day! So your chapter could have been/can be those who have aided the wolves and have been in their support for when the Inquistion has done their bastardly acts! Additional bonuses for this is...Have the Wolves at YOUR BACK when the Inquistion comes knocking That and in turn means good o'l Creed(Drinking buddy of O'l Grimnar) possibly as well!

WHO SAYS IN THE GRIM DARK FUTURE YOU CAN'T HAVE FRIENDS?!

GW does. Unless they have changed there tagline from "In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only War!" to "In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only War! And those guys who are friends over there, but we ignore them for the sake of being overdramatic."

Deviant gene seed is the easiest way to go. Theres one chapter that incourages abnormal bone growths (like blades on their forearms, etc) but they are supposidly still loyal.

VensersRevenge wrote:
GW does. Unless they have changed there tagline from "In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only War!" to "In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only War! And those guys who are friends over there, but we ignore them for the sake of being overdramatic."

I can see it Also kinda true when you think about it..I mean look at IG their heroes have some of the most awesomely badass fluff because they all look out for one another and are pretty much friends in a sense. SW do it too, Primarchs have done it and I wouldn't be surprised if Eldar and Tau are in the same respect. Summary...really is as you said with the latter

I assume that most Imperial forces have occasional rivalry and ever rarely come to blows, but that they mostly work together for a common goal. I like the idea of creating background material that allows for bitter nemeses, close allies, and everything in between. I especially like the idea that some forces of the IoM get along with each other better than others.

1) The chapter is 21st Founding, and is plagued by rumors of unorthodox gene-seed contribution, such as Canis Helix or even a traitor legion (Night Lords, Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, etc. all have surprisingly stable gene-seeds, and these were not destroyed after the Heresy). The gene-seed tithe frequently is "lost in transit" or seems tampered with.

Black Dragons are the most blatant canon example. They're definately absolutely loyal for the most part, but they have their HUGE mutant bladed bones jutting out of many of them right there for everyone to see. Yet their gene seed tithes are 100% pure (really REALLY pure). Hilariously enough, instead of getting the mechanicus to scream "Foul!", most mechanicus instead would love to know how they pull it off. But it does stretch the tolerance of the inquisition.

I'm not aware of any "lost in transit" or "seems tampered with" cases. I doubt a chapter could get away with that if their mutations/flaws were generally obvious. Black Dragons get away with it because they somehow have pure geneseed tithes that don't even show signs of tampering (which, again, makes the mechanicus wonder how the hell they pull that off). Most other loyalist cursed founding chapters seem to just hand over the gene-seed as-is, and hope that the glaring flaws in that seed aren't so bad as to get them declared heretics. By the 40th Millenium, I imagine the few loyalist cursed founding chapters still around have had their gene-seed flaws tolerated long enough that are probably in the clear regarding that if their gene seed isn't degrading, at least. The exception possibly maaaaybe being the Black Dragons if anyone can ever get proof of them tampering with their gene-seed.

Those with traitor gene-seed would presumably have their gene-seed information classified or something. So far the chapters we know of that possibly come from traitor gene-seed (Minotaurs, Red Scorpions, Blood Ravens, Sons of Antagonis. ...one for each Chaos God! ) seem to just hand over their gene-seed as is, with the results simply being classified "at the highest level". In the Red Scorpion's case, they formally complain when various people investigate their gene-seed, but that's as far as it goes as far as we can tell.

2) The chapter has an expansive fiefdom consisting of a large star system containing multiple inhabited worlds, or worse, multiple star systems. Rather than an austere lifestyle, they tend to live like kings on their home worlds. Since the chapter is distributed on multiple worlds, its numbers are not known, but it seems like it may be a bit too large.

So far the two cases we've seen of this seem to mostly go ignored. Ultramarines have Ultramar, although perhaps they're ignored because they're a first founding chapter. The Astral Claws, on the other hand, had a huge fiefdom in practice but whether or not they would have been called out on it is uncertain. The reasons the Badab War started and their ultimate heresy was for other reasons (late laaate tithes of gene seed and ultimately having waaaay more than 1,000 marines, for one thing)

3) The chapter tends to indulge the flesh in an inappropriate manner. This includes rumors that the gene-seed and/or physical conditioning and/or psychological conditioning that normally prevents SM from having children didn't exactly work out so well this time. Some individuals are purported to have multiple families and children on different worlds.

GW never really addressed if they could have children or not, so... who knows, I guess? We technically don't even know if Space Marine love, if it's possible in the first place, is heretical or not. The issue/question/subject has literally never come up. AT ALL.

4) While excessive violence is sanctioned and even expected, this chapter has an aspect of savagery that smacks of heresy. Ritualized blood sport, claiming of fetishes from corpses, and factions within the chapters that adopt totem animals (reminiscent of Warrior Lodges) are all rumored to exist in the chapter.

Pretty much. The line where this is drawn can be vague sometimes. It's mentioned for the renegade chapter Sons of Malice that many Marine chapters did have rather iffy rituals. In the end, the Sons of Malice were declared ex-communicates because theirs were TOO brutal and savage and downright horrific. Far as I'm aware, the exact line between what's acceptable (if barely) and what isn't is a bit blurry. Hence this is flirting the line with heresy, for sure.

5) The chapter has a unique mission: they monomaniacally hunt down and execute hated foes at the expense of towing the Imperial line. Consequently, they routinely ignores distress calls from PDFs, the IG, and the Imperial Navy, and have occasionally even refused orders to contribute troops to High Lords of Terra or the Inquisition itself.

In this case, someone has to be giving the orders, though, right? A Space Marine chapter can't just decide who's the most hated foe by itself. I'm not even sure how they'd get the information needed to figure out and decide that sort of thing. It's not like Space Marines have a lot of intelligence gathering resources like other Imperial factions do. So far, the Space Marine chapters we've seen that get assigned "special elite" tasks like this at the cost of ignoring lots of other things are ones that are firmly in the palm of an Imperial organization that does have the intelligence gathering resources to determine what foe needs executing NOW. (The Minotaurs for the High Lords, and maybe the Red Hunters for the Inquisition. And the Death Watch, actually, who actually do just watch from the sidelines in many cases but swoop in for those specialist ones).

Basically, I imagine a chapter can't have a unique mission to monomaniacally hunt down and execute hated foes of the Imperium without someone to actually tell them who those hated foes are in the first place that would demand such a thing. They don't have the intelligence-gathering resources for it, really.

...or you can just look at Dark Angels and their successors if you want a Space Marine chapter that does a variation of this (instead of "hated foes of the Imperium", this is a more private personal matter, though). They definitely flirt the line but so far in 10,000 years are still in the folds of the Imperium.

So those are the ideas I was kicking around. I am interested in feedback! Would rumors of these traits arouse the ire of the Inquisition, or would they be so over-the-top that they would lead to an instant excommunication? Also, what ideas do you all have that might be right on the edge of arousing the ultimate sanction of Excommunicate Traitoris from the Inquisition?

As you can see, there are in-canon cases you can look at for most of them. The exception being the family/love thing, which we technically have no idea if that's heresy in the first place or not because no one ever mentions anything about it either way

It is implied that the process of creating a Space Marine renders them sterile, and the hypno-indoctrination renders them effectively impotent.

Didn't stop Lukas The Trickster from humping 10 girls in one night....Then again it's never made clear if that was before or after he became a SW....From the way it's worded it seems like after since he's known for that...yet if information regarding the space marine biology is correct then this had to have happened before....You know what this is why fan fiction and fan fillers are made and are a thing. HECK this is why GW encourages people to form their own narrative! For moments like this!

Go for it Owl King! MAKE THIS MARINES HAVE ALL THE BABIES!!!

Though I now wonder.... Space Marine x Sisters Of Battle? would that work out better? Could produce a very awesome kid if anything. Or some manner of beast that both would call a heretic and burn with holy fire.

I think I will go for it. To make things even more fethed up, I was thinking the children should be giant abhumans, similar to Ogryn, but less... acceptable... to the Inquisition. Rather than kill these mutants, as is any honest Imperial citizen's duty, the Chapter covers up their existence.

Hey that's what we with our Thunderwolves. Just hide those big monsters and all the Inquistion will have to go off of is the bloody horrifying tale that they will hear your army has brought in the name of the allfather When they come knocking...

"What are these mutants in which you speak? We know nothing of the sort Inquistor."

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Didn't stop Lukas The Trickster from humping 10 girls in one night....Then again it's never made clear if that was before or after he became a SW....From the way it's worded it seems like after since he's known for that...yet if information regarding the space marine biology is correct then this had to have happened before....You know what this is why fan fiction and fan fillers are made and are a thing. HECK this is why GW encourages people to form their own narrative! For moments like this!

Go for it Owl King! MAKE THIS MARINES HAVE ALL THE BABIES!!!

Though I now wonder.... Space Marine x Sisters Of Battle? would that work out better? Could produce a very awesome kid if anything. Or some manner of beast that both would call a heretic and burn with holy fire.

From what I remember of C:SW, probably 3rd Ed, that was before he became a Space Marine.

The Sisterhood probably takes vows of celibacy and chastity, especially after Vandire had pimped them out to his cronies.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Didn't stop Lukas The Trickster from humping 10 girls in one night....Then again it's never made clear if that was before or after he became a SW....From the way it's worded it seems like after since he's known for that...yet if information regarding the space marine biology is correct then this had to have happened before....You know what this is why fan fiction and fan fillers are made and are a thing. HECK this is why GW encourages people to form their own narrative! For moments like this!

Go for it Owl King! MAKE THIS MARINES HAVE ALL THE BABIES!!!

Though I now wonder.... Space Marine x Sisters Of Battle? would that work out better? Could produce a very awesome kid if anything. Or some manner of beast that both would call a heretic and burn with holy fire.

From what I remember of C:SW, probably 3rd Ed, that was before he became a Space Marine.

The Sisterhood probably takes vows of celibacy and chastity, especially after Vandire had pimped them out to his cronies.

We meet again chastity my old foe...You continue to take fun away from us all I see in the Grim Dark Future where there is only war and friendship(Had to add that one ) Hmm seems fair enough....Then again Charisma is a powerful thing... whose to say there hasn't been...instances of such things occurring. Oh wait I know who...The pure amounts of holy fire and holy bolters being fired at any sister who breaks that vow. CURSES! Eh there's always the fan fiction and fan service. Well that and making your own stories ^^

The existence of the Sisters Repentia indicates that not all of them are perfect in adhering to their vows.

 Psienesis wrote:
The existence of the Sisters Repentia indicates that not all of them are perfect in adhering to their vows.

Who says Sisters don't know how to have fun lol Then again the cost is well... -looks on over at the SoB-...Very insane

What you have to remember is that the Inquisition doesn't really care if you're a loyalist or not. Puritan Inquisitors would call for your chapter's destruction probably instantly, more radical ones...well, we know how they roll.

I'm often reminded of...I think the Fire Lords? Or some 'Fire' chapter that during their first deployment, burst into flames that only harmed their enemies. Inquisition was on site and called in the Grey Knights to do what they do. Chapter was wiped out basically, no conversation, no "Hey...neat trick, how're you doing that?" just *blam'd*.

And the kicker of it is? They were celebrating their victory when the Grey Knights showed up and put their wangs in the punch bowl. These guys were all about playing for the Imperium and using their 'gift' to fight evil.