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Hello all,

I have an interest in the rivalry between loyalist SM chapters and the Inquisition. Consequently, I am looking for some ideas that might draw the attention of the Inquisition, but not necessarily lead to instant excommunication - at least not until the investigation is over! I confess that I am building a chapter of my own (White Scars successors); in the interest of being general and having a broad appeal, ideas that don't suit this particular kind of chapter are welcome as well.

Below are some examples of things I was mulling over during creation of my own chapter. Be forewarned, some of the ideas skirt 40k canonicity lines as well as lines of heresy; I was hoping to keep the debate about how serious these offenses (or even rumors of these offenses) would be in-universe, not whether they are possible in the first place (some of these are only rumors, after all, and thus don't have to be possible).

1) The chapter is 21st Founding, and is plagued by rumors of unorthodox gene-seed contribution, such as Canis Helix or even a traitor legion (Night Lords, Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, etc. all have surprisingly stable gene-seeds, and these were not destroyed after the Heresy). The gene-seed tithe frequently is "lost in transit" or seems tampered with.
2) The chapter has an expansive fiefdom consisting of a large star system containing multiple inhabited worlds, or worse, multiple star systems. Rather than an austere lifestyle, they tend to live like kings on their home worlds. Since the chapter is distributed on multiple worlds, its numbers are not known, but it seems like it may be a bit too large.
3) The chapter tends to indulge the flesh in an inappropriate manner. This includes rumors that the gene-seed and/or physical conditioning and/or psychological conditioning that normally prevents SM from having children didn't exactly work out so well this time. Some individuals are purported to have multiple families and children on different worlds.
4) While excessive violence is sanctioned and even expected, this chapter has an aspect of savagery that smacks of heresy. Ritualized blood sport, claiming of fetishes from corpses, and factions within the chapters that adopt totem animals (reminiscent of Warrior Lodges) are all rumored to exist in the chapter.
5) The chapter has a unique mission: they monomaniacally hunt down and execute hated foes at the expense of towing the Imperial line. Consequently, they routinely ignores distress calls from PDFs, the IG, and the Imperial Navy, and have occasionally even refused orders to contribute troops to High Lords of Terra or the Inquisition itself.

So those are the ideas I was kicking around. I am interested in feedback! Would rumors of these traits arouse the ire of the Inquisition, or would they be so over-the-top that they would lead to an instant excommunication? Also, what ideas do you all have that might be right on the edge of arousing the ultimate sanction of Excommunicate Traitoris from the Inquisition?



Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this topic... I'm new to the forum and don't quite have a handle on how this all works. Feel free to move the topic wherever it belongs, of course!

Just a few...

1) Making use of Xeno equipment.
2) Reverse-Engineering human and/or Xeno equipment (also called Tech-heresy).
3) Failure to submit the tithe of their geneseed to the Adeptus Mechanicus for purity testing. (Got something to hide, do we?)
4) Deviant religious practices.
5) Deviant battlefield practices (cannibalism, for example)
6) Making long-term alliances with Xeno cultures, or permitting Xeno cultures to co-exist with human cultures (such as permitting a Tau enclave to trade with a human world under the Chapter's dominion).
7) Failure to respond to a call to arms issued by the High Lords of Terra.


... drop the Canis Helix link. It's been demonstrably established that it only ever works on Fenrisian natives. Everyone else gets fethed up real bad real quick.

I learned today that the Lamenters once refused an iron halo from Marneus Calgar, which some saw as an insult, thus brewing distrust, but I don't know if the Inquisition was paying attention. Being the "eye that sleepeth not," I doubt they weren't.

But unless your chapter is either overly humble or distrustful of all, this probably wouldn't work. I do think I can rule out the humble option, what with the regal lifestyle used to describe them.

Wouldnt go too much overboard with a lot of reasons, or you might end up closer to being the red corsairs. But otherwise a few of those reasons posted i believe would be enough for the inquisition to be wary of your actions (i like the 21st foundin bit myself)

An inquisitor has gone missing and his/her last known location was this system.

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
ideas

I'd say only number five would draw the attention of the Inquisition.

Being 21st founding means that the Inquisition already has been watching you since the time you were created, so that's not as big of a deal.
Having an expansive fiefdom is fine as long as they're not over-recruiting and they have the means of protecting all worlds they claim. And besides, there's nothing wrong with having a system with multiple inhabited worlds. With the use of terraforming and colonization efforts, it's most likely the norm in 40k.
Number three really isn't as big a deal as the fandom tends to believe. It's just another odd genetic quirk. Not exactly spontaneously combusting into flames.
Number four is quite common among chapters actually.

Thus, the Inquisition doesn't really care what you get up to in your off-time, as long as you actually do your damn job as an astartes chapter.

A chapter whos system has been cut off by a warp storm for 5000 years and the warp storms only abated recently? They are back in the imperial fold, but nothing is really known of what the chapter has been upto for the past 5000 years. Combine that with the fact that the chapter is used to even more freedom than most chapters and is uneasy at having imperial decrees forced upon it. In those 5,000 years they have been able to enlarge the size of their chapter due to not having any gene thithe and are currently hiding their numbers to prevent from being split into smaller chapters... that would raise inquisitorial suspiscion.
Or a chapter who has been lost in the warp for a millenium... the inquisition may expect the taint of the warp has seeped into them.

Thanks for the feedback! I disagree about #4, the "factions within the chapter adopting totem animals" bit. The warrior lodges are known, in-universe, to be a major contributing factor to the HH. True, not everyone would be aware of this, and many SM might not even know. However, I think it'd be a red flag for the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, and/or Commissariat - basically, anyone whose job it is to ensure loyalty and weed out heresy.

That being said, I have taken all of your advice into consideration and edited the list slightly. Again, none of these things should be totally damning in-and-of themselves; the goal is to create a loyalist chapter here. Just one that has enough uncomfortable rumors swirling around it that its relationship with the Inquisition (and maybe a few other loyalist organizations that would act at the Inquisition's behest) is strained, and possibly has occasional open conflict.

I have a few more questions: How would the chapter operate during an Inquisitorial investigation? What if they didn't fully cooperate (I know they basically have no choice, but what if they just dragged their heels as much as possible)? If the Inquisition is displeased but finds no evidence of outright heresy, are there sanctions they can apply short of Excommunicate Traitoris?

You really should NOT worry about the commissariat...They have no say in matters where SM are involved.

As another said, just don't go overboard.

The Inquisition would go up against Space Marines because:

The chapter's Chaplains are preaching an interpretation of the Imperial Creed deemed heretical

The chapters' gene-seed has grown debased and impure and the Inquisition "needs" a sample.

The Chapter Master has manifested prodigious psychic powers.

The chapter's Librarians are able to call upon Psychic Powers unseen in those of any other SM force.

Many chapters are independent and one such chapter has refused to give aid when requested resulting in the loss of a strategically vital world.

Aspirants are being recruited from a feral world and the natives' gene-pool is corrupted.

Dat Heresy...



Saw the title, couldn't help it. Forgive me.

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Thanks for the feedback! I disagree about #4, the "factions within the chapter adopting totem animals" bit. The warrior lodges are known, in-universe, to be a major contributing factor to the HH. True, not everyone would be aware of this, and many SM might not even know. However, I think it'd be a red flag for the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, and/or Commissariat - basically, anyone whose job it is to ensure loyalty and weed out heresy.

That being said, I have taken all of your advice into consideration and edited the list slightly. Again, none of these things should be totally damning in-and-of themselves; the goal is to create a loyalist chapter here. Just one that has enough uncomfortable rumors swirling around it that its relationship with the Inquisition (and maybe a few other loyalist organizations that would act at the Inquisition's behest) is strained, and possibly has occasional open conflict.

I have a few more questions: How would the chapter operate during an Inquisitorial investigation? What if they didn't fully cooperate (I know they basically have no choice, but what if they just dragged their heels as much as possible)? If the Inquisition is displeased but finds no evidence of outright heresy, are there sanctions they can apply short of Excommunicate Traitoris?

Pretty common for us Space Wolves. We're all about Wolf Fetishes and Totems, believing in Wolf Gods and lures that the Inquistion tried to investigate us...We blasted them before they even came close to Fenris then got into a week long battle when they tried it again until they gave up. Point is Space Wolves perform a lot of hat is said yet are still loyal to the All Father(Emperor) with Russ holding just that much more.

Some more reasons the inquisition would investigate a chapter
1: Holding numbers over the codex regulated 1000
2:Frequent run-ins with either a certain Chaos group, or Legion of the Damned
3:Leaving the battlefield at a time when they are needed (Hence the mistrust of the Unforgiven)
4: Telling multiple inquisitors off(for instance blocking an investigation, or refusing to assist inquisition multiple times)
5:Unconfirmed reports of firing on a loyalist chapter.
6: Major instability in geneseed
7: Depending on if ward writes it; withholding technology from AdMech
8: Run in with grey knights.

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Pretty common for us Space Wolves. We're all about Wolf Fetishes and Totems, believing in Wolf Gods and lures that the Inquistion tried to investigate us...We blasted them before they even came close to Fenris then got into a week long battle when they tried it again until they gave up. Point is Space Wolves perform a lot of hat is said yet are still loyal to the All Father(Emperor) with Russ holding just that much more.

I was not aware of open conflict between the SW and the Inquisition. What is the source of this, C:SW?

Why would the Inquisition just stop? They wouldn't even need to conquer Fenris themselves, just excommunicate the chapter, no? I mean, I suppose the SW are a powerful chapter with friends, but the Inquisition would definitely win that political struggle....

Any other examples of open combat between a chapter and the Inquisition or Grey Knights not leading to excommunication?

As for dragging of the feet with an investigation, The Dark Angels drag their feet for whoever investigates them. This is due to a flaw in their gene-seed.

It is expected from 1 or 2 members of a chapter to go rouge and nobody bats an eye, but when 50% of the chapter goes rogue, that is a flaw in the gene-seed of the unforgiven.

So their is an example of a chapter that has been dragging their feet ever since the destruction of caliban.

Often inquisitorial attention is gained due to interaction between the chapter and individual inquisitors. CHapters can get away with things for years, then a single inquisitor sees them do something bad or whatever and then they're subject to investigation. For example, the Relictors got away with using demoan weapons for quite a while until they attacked an imperial stronghold that had one, killed the guardsmen guarding it and in the process almost killed a visiting inquisitor.

So generally it will be something the chapter has gotten away with for a while, then an inquisitor notices and launches a personal investigation. The inquisition doesn't really have a central governing body so its all down to individual inquisitors.

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Hello all,

I have an interest in the rivalry between loyalist SM chapters and the Inquisition. Consequently, I am looking for some ideas that might draw the attention of the Inquisition, but not necessarily lead to instant excommunication - at least not until the investigation is over! I confess that I am building a chapter of my own (White Scars successors); in the interest of being general and having a broad appeal, ideas that don't suit this particular kind of chapter are welcome as well.

Below are some examples of things I was mulling over during creation of my own chapter. Be forewarned, some of the ideas skirt 40k canonicity lines as well as lines of heresy; I was hoping to keep the debate about how serious these offenses (or even rumors of these offenses) would be in-universe, not whether they are possible in the first place (some of these are only rumors, after all, and thus don't have to be possible).

1) The chapter is 21st Founding, and is plagued by rumors of unorthodox gene-seed contribution, such as Canis Helix or even a traitor legion (Night Lords, Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, etc. all have surprisingly stable gene-seeds, and these were not destroyed after the Heresy). The gene-seed tithe frequently is "lost in transit" or seems tampered with.
2) The chapter has an expansive fiefdom consisting of a large star system containing multiple inhabited worlds, or worse, multiple star systems. Rather than an austere lifestyle, they tend to live like kings on their home worlds. Since the chapter is distributed on multiple worlds, its numbers are not known, but it seems like it may be a bit too large.
3) The chapter tends to indulge the flesh in an inappropriate manner. This includes rumors that the gene-seed and/or physical conditioning and/or psychological conditioning that normally prevents SM from having children didn't exactly work out so well this time. Some individuals are purported to have multiple families and children on different worlds.
4) While excessive violence is sanctioned and even expected, this chapter has an aspect of savagery that smacks of heresy. Ritualized blood sport, claiming of fetishes from corpses, and factions within the chapters that adopt totem animals (reminiscent of Warrior Lodges) are all rumored to exist in the chapter.
5) The chapter has a unique mission: they monomaniacally hunt down and execute hated foes at the expense of towing the Imperial line. Consequently, they routinely ignores distress calls from PDFs, the IG, and the Imperial Navy, and have occasionally even refused orders to contribute troops to High Lords of Terra or the Inquisition itself.

So those are the ideas I was kicking around. I am interested in feedback! Would rumors of these traits arouse the ire of the Inquisition, or would they be so over-the-top that they would lead to an instant excommunication? Also, what ideas do you all have that might be right on the edge of arousing the ultimate sanction of Excommunicate Traitoris from the Inquisition?



Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this topic... I'm new to the forum and don't quite have a handle on how this all works. Feel free to move the topic wherever it belongs, of course!

Haha. Sooooo. Spacewolves then?

Yes, well, I was considering the possibility of a successor chapter of mixed gene-seed, part of which was SW. Apparently, however, that's not possible, as the Canis Helix is fatal for non-Fenrisians? Although, I suppose almost anything is possible in the 21st founding.

More to the point, though: yes, my chapter is intentionally similar to the SW to some extent. WS and SW have a lot in common, at least in the fluff. However, I'm interested in other peoples ideas about how to FLIRT with heresy without getting outright excommunicated. Where do you guys think the line is? What is the process of crossing that line? Does a single Inquisitor just decide to excommunicate you one day, if you offer even the slightest provocation? This seems to be the general consensus, but on the other hand, there are examples of even open combat between chapters and other Imperial forces that didn't lead to excommunication.

Maybe the answer is that the IoM is a huge, complicated place, and "real" life there is governed by politics, just like it is in real life here.

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:

 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Pretty common for us Space Wolves. We're all about Wolf Fetishes and Totems, believing in Wolf Gods and lures that the Inquistion tried to investigate us...We blasted them before they even came close to Fenris then got into a week long battle when they tried it again until they gave up. Point is Space Wolves perform a lot of hat is said yet are still loyal to the All Father(Emperor) with Russ holding just that much more.

I was not aware of open conflict between the SW and the Inquisition. What is the source of this, C:SW?

Why would the Inquisition just stop? They wouldn't even need to conquer Fenris themselves, just excommunicate the chapter, no? I mean, I suppose the SW are a powerful chapter with friends, but the Inquisition would definitely win that political struggle....

Any other examples of open combat between a chapter and the Inquisition or Grey Knights not leading to excommunication?

5th Ed C:SW, the SW get into a pissing match with the GK and the Inquisition after the events of the Third War of Armageddon. What follows is a period called the Months of Shame. The only reason the SW still exist as a Chapter is because of Plot Armor. Literally no other Chapter in the Imperium would be around after the SW did what they did (including killing several GK, firing on the Inquisition, and fighting off a Sector Battlefleet). The reason the Inquisition stopped, in-universe, is because so many lives had been lost and the possibility of it erupting into a full-blown civil war was deemed too risky.

So, yes, plot-armor, and I say that as someone who rather likes the Space Wolves. They basically got away with something that no one should get away with, for all the wrong reasons, and were, from the very outset, clearly in the wrong in their opinions on the subject. Noble savages? No. Noble idiots.

in defense of Space Wolves we're very loyal to our friends. Not out fault the Inquistion are a bunch of terds. we fought the Flesh Tearers because of the messed up stuff they did on a planet. Get into small scuffs with the good o'l Dark Angels. Us and the Grey Knights aren't on the best of terms after the months of shame. Stack that with the fact it's literally in our fluff that we mess with the Inquistion when we get the chance to ever since the issue that happened on Armageddon and well ya...Pretty much we get away with a lot of what we do because it'd erupt into full blow civil war. Bjorn The Fell-Handed pretty much explained that when Old Grimnar(our chapter master) decided to say "OFF WITH THY HEAD!" to a Grey Knight big shot, was pretty funny to see that Knight's head go flying . Not to mention Bran Redmaw, a wold Lord, pretty much told an Inquistor to go F himself when his company went to the aid of some IG being attacked by Eldar. Yeah...we get away with a lot of stuff heh ^^; Also pretty sure the WS and SW get along thanks to their Primarchs being friends along with good old Sanguinus. Those three were close after all ^^ So ya man if you want to flirt with Heresy...just look at us Wolves. Pretty much all you need to know XD We're breaking so many rules....it's just that dang awesome!!!

You could have something in realty that could be quite subtle, yet could also be seen as something HUGE, and the Inquisitors are investigating to find out whether it is via manipulation or design (that they aren't aware of).

What I mean by this is in the gene seed tithes... All the gene seed collected is pure, yet seems to be never from one chapter, always sharing common traits to near identical to other chapters.

Now is this because the chapter was created out of varied stock and has always recruited and implemented gene seed from varied stock... Or do they 'acquire' the stock they use for their tithes, for as yet unknown reasons....

And that reason could again be another layer you add later on...

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:

1) The chapter is 21st Founding, and is plagued by rumors of unorthodox gene-seed contribution, such as Canis Helix or even a traitor legion (Night Lords, Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, etc. all have surprisingly stable gene-seeds, and these were not destroyed after the Heresy). The gene-seed tithe frequently is "lost in transit" or seems tampered with.
2) The chapter has an expansive fiefdom consisting of a large star system containing multiple inhabited worlds, or worse, multiple star systems. Rather than an austere lifestyle, they tend to live like kings on their home worlds. Since the chapter is distributed on multiple worlds, its numbers are not known, but it seems like it may be a bit too large.
3) The chapter tends to indulge the flesh in an inappropriate manner. This includes rumors that the gene-seed and/or physical conditioning and/or psychological conditioning that normally prevents SM from having children didn't exactly work out so well this time. Some individuals are purported to have multiple families and children on different worlds.
4) While excessive violence is sanctioned and even expected, this chapter has an aspect of savagery that smacks of heresy. Ritualized blood sport, claiming of fetishes from corpses, and factions within the chapters that adopt totem animals (reminiscent of Warrior Lodges) are all rumored to exist in the chapter.
5) The chapter has a unique mission: they monomaniacally hunt down and execute hated foes at the expense of towing the Imperial line. Consequently, they routinely ignores distress calls from PDFs, the IG, and the Imperial Navy, and have occasionally even refused orders to contribute troops to High Lords of Terra or the Inquisition itself.

1. There is no technical way for them to gain the Canis Helix, really, since it is not natural to the geneseed of a Space Wolf. Actually, it is imbibed, and since each recruit drinks it, it can be reasoned out that it does not recreate itself in the second cloned gene seed. Traitor Legion gene-seed...is the quickest way to get kicked out of the Imperium. The gene seed was locked in stasis, but you would have to be personally vetted by the High Lords of Terra,

2. It's your homeworld/system, do what you want. Also, there are plenty of chapters that do not follow the guide. Look at the Black Templars. You just better be having reasons to need those numbers, like going on crusade for long periods of time.

3. Well...no one can really say one way or the other if this is possible, but I use the rule of G. No birds and the bees.

4. That's personal chapter things. They can care less for that, provided the marines do what needs doing.

5. You just described the Dark Angels, for the most part. Granted that your going to have to do some work to explain yourself to the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition, but it's been done. Then again, the Dark Angels simply just killed anyone asking too many questions and came up with an excuse. Take your pick on killing the guy investigating you. "Lost in the Warp?" Is like "My dog ate my homework." but the Imperium will actually believe it.

During a chunk of time cut off from the imperium this chapter essentially destroys the imperial cult and enforces the original imperial truth in a rigid fashion.

No gods, no masters, science and humanity over all, by the emperor's example and will. Conceptually I think it would be neat to see a mini 30k imperium VS 40k.

Just look at the Astral claws completely loyal but the imperium turned on them over politics and the greed of another system other wise in my opinion the alliance they were planing would have been a brilliant victory for the imperium.

Just my opinion though.

 Psienesis wrote:

5th Ed C:SW, the SW get into a pissing match with the GK and the Inquisition after the events of the Third War of Armageddon.

Wasn't it the first war?

Bah, you're right... transposed 3rd War from an ongoing discussion of it on another site...

Is there a good source for background on the SW vs. Inquisition? Besides the C:SW? As in a BL book about it?

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Is there a good source for background on the SW vs. Inquisition? Besides the C:SW? As in a BL book about it?

There is a decent account of it in AD-B's Emperor's Gift, but it's from a Grey Knight's perspective.

I think the space wolves getting away with stuff has to do with several things.

1) they are a first founding chapter of great renown and respect, both among other chapters as well as the imperium at large

2) the space marines don't often take kindly to the inquisition meddling in their affairs, this coupled with number 1 could lead to a conflict that would make the Badab war look like a toddlers squabble.

3) for all their faults the space wolves are undoubtedly loyal, even matt ward wouldn't cast doubt on the motivations of the chapter, this is pretty much undisputed so while there have been minor scuffles with other imperial forces which is not in itself uncommon ( looking at you DA) they could never be accused of heresy.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I think the space wolves getting away with stuff has to do with several things.

1) they are a first founding chapter of great renown and respect, both among other chapters as well as the imperium at large

2) the space marines don't often take kindly to the inquisition meddling in their affairs, this coupled with number 1 could lead to a conflict that would make the Badab war look like a toddlers squabble.

3) for all their faults the space wolves are undoubtedly loyal, even matt ward wouldn't cast doubt on the motivations of the chapter, this is pretty much undisputed so while there have been minor scuffles with other imperial forces which is not in itself uncommon ( looking at you DA) they could never be accused of heresy.

Pretty much.