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Well, my vote goes for the Wraiths. They are able to tie up any kind of melee units for a while. This gives the rest of your army time to get into position.

I think the game state makes this question about survivability and I think the seer council wins because of that. Screamerstar is probably harder to kill, but a bunch of screamers and tzeentch herald don't have the killing power to compete. Everything else is very gimmicky or has reasonable counters. For pure killing power however, the death company has to win right? Maybe I'll do the math on the morning.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The Swarmlord.

This. Absolutely brutal.

DCA/Crusader blob is pretty nasty, not seen a list with one in awhile though

7 Deathwing knights and a interrogator chaplain in a land raider Crusader is the best I can think of.

DCA/Crusader blob is pretty nasty, not seen a list with one in awhile though

I have, but as nasty as they can be...they are way too easy to kill with shooting. 4 Crusaders, and 8 DCA are statistically killed by 24 wounds. And on T3 that's not hard.

I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon. Actually, and I've been trying to promote this at the shop I go to from time to time, I'd like to see a Deathmatch styled battle.

Rules:
Independent (Character) choices only.
Re-spawn Points
Bring whatever your Character can carry.

THROW DOWN. LAST HERO STANDING.

Bets? Actually, scratch that. Starting a new thread. XD

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon.

The top three is CC characters in 40k are

Swarmlord
Deamon Prince with the black mace
Abaddon

In that order IIRC.

Search for labmouse's Abbaddon will take your lunch money thread. Its all already been mathed out too

My most powerful cc unit so far is Abby with 10 termies with a mix of weapons, with the MoS and FNP.
Beats stuff up.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon.

The top three is CC characters in 40k are

Swarmlord
Deamon Prince with the black mace
Abaddon

In that order IIRC.

Search for labmouse's Abbaddon will take your lunch money thread. Its all already been mathed out too

My most powerful cc unit so far is Abby with 10 termies with a mix of weapons, with the MoS and FNP.
Beats stuff up.

Again, 30 Death Company with everything is probably the strongest melee unit if we're ignoring costs.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon. Actually, and I've been trying to promote this at the shop I go to from time to time, I'd like to see a Deathmatch styled battle.

Rules:
Independent (Character) choices only.
Re-spawn Points
Bring whatever your Character can carry.

THROW DOWN. LAST HERO STANDING.

Bets? Actually, scratch that. Starting a new thread. XD

What happens is they are closely matched. If Ghaz gets 2 rounds of 2++ save, he has the edge, otherwise Abbadon does.

Here is an old thread you can look at up
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page

Swarmlord.

Are we going for a single model, or for a unit? what is the point size limit on the unit? Skarbrand is an instant death murder machine who should have no trouble with the Swarmlord, or any other single character for that matter.

WS10, he will hit just about everything on 3, while everyone else will hit him on 4, 5, or 6. Being initiative 10 means your opponent may not have a chance to get the glory of hatred that Skarbrand grants to friend and foe alike.

DP with black mace is powerful, but will fold to a bloodthirster, or even a keeper of secrets. Any MC with Initiative 9 or 10 will smash once and black mace DP will die. Any of the greater daemons with full rewards has a decent shot against a black mace DP, T5 is weak in an MC fight. A lvl3 keeper of secrets with invisibility would mess just about everything up. but pending on the rolls on the powers and rewards tables, the greater daemons can become gods, or just really strong MCs.

Lord of change with forewarning, misfortune, and prescience, rolling: re-roll failed saves and ++4FnP is stupid hard to kill.


I think Wraiths will win against an individual foe just about always, all of them basically having storm shields is nice, nice enough to soak up 5-9 instant death attacks without too much worry. Then the resulting rending attacks should put the hurt on whatever is hitting them.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Are we going for a single model, or for a unit? what is the point size limit on the unit? Skarbrand is an instant death murder machine who should have no trouble with the Swarmlord, or any other single character

Swarmlord has a 4/6 chance of having eternal warrior (iron arm). His attacks cause instant death and you have to reroll successful invulnerable saves against his attacks. He has a 4++ in melee.

So the fight is probably 50/50 overall (including the chance to not roll iron arm).

Lord of change with exalted sword for +d3 I/A/WS S8 from staff and 2++ rerollable is pretty solid. Can fly and shoot too!

If you add psychic powers in, seer council is by far the best unit in combat.

Doom
Presience
Misfortune
Hallucinate

Warlock buffs
(+Iniative and Weapon skill)
(+str (for baron everything else is fleshbane))
(- armor save(if the armor save is better)


So basically with perfect powers, you have a unit that always hits first, hits on at worst 4+ (WS 10) rerollable always wounds on 2+ (4+ with a buffed baron against T10) rerollable, that forces you to reroll successful saves (negates rerolling saves) that can also make you not attack back in combat (hallucinate).

Nothing can survive this as it can kill every unit in the game while not taking wounds back at all since the opponent doesn't attack back.

 changerofways wrote:
I dont think there is a clear answer here. There are several points of a powerful CC unit that makes them powerful:

Number of attacks: Single CSM units with Khorne marks and Daemon weapons can have 15+ attacks on a charge. The sheer number of units that these monsters can kill at once is incredible, charging from one squad to the next, taking each out with a single round of combat at the cost of 300 or so points.

Strength and AP: Monstrous creatures are excellent at killing termies and what not with high armor.

Toughness: Things like Hive tyrants and other Tyranid/Nurgle Daemons can have T7-10 and 6,7,8,9 wounds. Durability is important for CC monsters because they will be shot a lot. They are bullet magnets. It doesnt matter how powerful you are if you get killed after one round of shooting.

With all of this in mind, here are some of the games most powerful CC units:
Greater Unclean One with greater gifts
Bloodthirster with greater gifts
DaemonPrince of Tzeentch with Black mace power armor and wings
Typhus
Abbadon
The Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host
The Avatar of Khaine
Lord Kaldor Draigo
Castellan Crowe
All of the C'tans
Ghazghkull Thraka
Space Marine Captain Darnath Lysander
Bjorn the Fell-Handed
Logan Grimnar
Not familiar with nids, but lots of them

changerofways wrote:Castellan Crowe

No.

You're mistaking should be good in CC for is good in CC. Crowe very definitely should be good, but is in fact, useless.
Crowe is a liability.

I agree with the rest though.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon.

The top three is CC characters in 40k are

Swarmlord
Deamon Prince with the black mace
Abaddon

In that order IIRC.

Search for labmouse's Abbaddon will take your lunch money thread. Its all already been mathed out too

My most powerful cc unit so far is Abby with 10 termies with a mix of weapons, with the MoS and FNP.
Beats stuff up.

How is a DP with black mace more powerful than Ghazzy? Ghazzy would cut him in half in 1 round of combat. Or are we just talking about points to killyness ratio? If thats the case then the DP should probably be at the top lol.

tiber55 wrote:
If you add psychic powers in, seer council is by far the best unit in combat.

Doom
Presience
Misfortune
Hallucinate

Warlock buffs
(+Iniative and Weapon skill)
(+str (for baron everything else is fleshbane))
(- armor save(if the armor save is better)


So basically with perfect powers, you have a unit that always hits first, hits on at worst 4+ (WS 10) rerollable always wounds on 2+ (4+ with a buffed baron against T10) rerollable, that forces you to reroll successful saves (negates rerolling saves) that can also make you not attack back in combat (hallucinate).

Nothing can survive this as it can kill every unit in the game while not taking wounds back at all since the opponent doesn't attack back.

This, Seer Council is the best.

Although if we get less realistic, you could take a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Black Mace, Warp Speed, Iron Arm, Endurance and Invisibility from someone else, Grimoire and Forewarning.

5 + D6 + D3 attacks at STR 6 + D3 at WS 9 + D3 at I8 + D3 with Fleshbane forcing toughness tests or removed from play. T5 + D3 with Eternal Warrior and a rerollable 2++ Any attacks coming back at him, including from the Seer council are at WS1 (due to Invis)

10 Ratlings with full command.

I've done the mathhammer, and there isn't a single model in 40k with a better than 50% chance of taking out the Swarmlord in CC, so as far as single models go it's Swarmy all the way. But when it comes to units, and factoring in survivability, reliability, killing potential, speed and points cost, I'd have to give the mantle of best CC unit to Wraithstars.

They're certainly not the best CC unit, but I'm a big fan of a Tyranid Prime with 9 Warriors kitted for close combat. Pretty fragile and slow, but they hit like a truck.
Just did some quick math...if they got the charge against that 30 TH Death Company unit, they would butcher the entire unit in two turns. (They kill 25 Death Company on the first round, at a higher initiative.)
Not too bad for ~550 points.

My vote is for a Black Legion Chaos Lord with MoT, the Spineshiver Blade, Crucible of Lies, Skull of Ker'ngar, melta bombs, jet pack and Sigil of Corruption.

He has a 3+ invulnerable save, rerolls 1s, eternal warrior, hits at I6 and brings a ton of attacks on the charge. I have played him in about 10 games, he's taken maybe 2 wounds from the enemy total (and many more from failed DW rolls). Pairs well with raptors and bikers, anything to take a challenge for him. Can get preferred enemy, IWND, and instant death as warlord traits to really wreak havoc.

I know some people want to debate about whether or not multiple artefacts are legal, but I think we are waiting for a FAQ for that. Upcoming clarifications from GW could be his only weakness.

 Billagio wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon.

The top three is CC characters in 40k are

Swarmlord
Deamon Prince with the black mace
Abaddon

In that order IIRC.

Search for labmouse's Abbaddon will take your lunch money thread. Its all already been mathed out too

My most powerful cc unit so far is Abby with 10 termies with a mix of weapons, with the MoS and FNP.
Beats stuff up.

How is a DP with black mace more powerful than Ghazzy? Ghazzy would cut him in half in 1 round of combat. Or are we just talking about points to killyness ratio? If thats the case then the DP should probably be at the top lol.

Read the thread labmouse linked to - the mathhammer says Ghazzy loses to Abby, but the DP will take Abbys lunch money. Here's the link again.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page


The DP on the charge gets (using smash) WS9, ST10,AP2, up to 9 attacks and for every wound you have to take a toughness test or be removed from play - That will take out most things.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504016.page
The DP on the charge gets (using smash) WS9, ST10,AP2, up to 9 attacks and for every wound you have to take a toughness test or be removed from play - That will take out most things.

That thread was written before the daemon book came out.
The daemons have changed things up a bit. Scarbrand hits like a truck.

However, there has not been an IC that stands up to Abbadon consistently. Ghaz is a very close second. C:SM chapter masters on bikes are good, but they don't have the attacks that Abbadon has.

When you start adding non ICs into the mix, you see the swarmlord pop up as #1. Greater daemons can be amazing depending on what gifts they get. In one game I had a LoC walk through my opponents entire ork army -- including Ghaz and meganobs.

#==============================

Now in regards to a unit, the seer council will spank the pants off a swarmlord. The witchblades don't care about his iron arm. A fortuned baron still gets a 2+ save. All that is assuming swarmy actually lives past the shuriken cats -- which are shockingly good when fired at a T6 'doomed' target. 30% of the hits will be AP2, so when your shooting 8 bikes at him, you can expect to do ~5 wounds.
I learned this the hard way in a game when I shot at a wraithknight thinking 'Oh yea, Ill take a wound or two off ahead of time' and I killed the damn thing! That prevented me from a nice multi-assault on the wraithknight and 2 wave serpents.

People might say 'Shadow of the Warp". Shadows won't do jack to a seer council unless its on a fast moving target. (Doom podding in or winged tyrants can be a problem). When facing termigon spam, I would just buff up out of range of shadows. Move 12" up and then kill the termigon. The same principal applies to the swarmlord.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I want to see Gazhgul throw down with Abbadon. Actually, and I've been trying to promote this at the shop I go to from time to time, I'd like to see a Deathmatch styled battle.

Rules:
Independent (Character) choices only.
Re-spawn Points
Bring whatever your Character can carry.

THROW DOWN. LAST HERO STANDING.

Bets? Actually, scratch that. Starting a new thread. XD

I did something similar, but way less simple. Just 1 IC for each, already in melee. Abbadon ate Draigo, and Skarbrand was the only one (even Eldar Avatar wasn't) capable of downing the Swarmlord.

Well, what about a tooled up Necron Royal Court with a tooled up Overlord (about 1305 points)

5 Crypteks and 5 lords in there. Tooled up right you have all kinds of tools and have 6 models with 2+, and 7 with 3++, also relentless, defensive grenades, D6 ST8 lightning hits when being charged. stormtek to kill vehicle, veil to jump anywhere on the table, two depsair tek with ST8 AP1 flamers, solar pulse for nightfighting, and then we get to the lords. Not many units can withstand 6 mindshacle scarab rolls, having most of the enemy hitting themselves to death (scramernstar, swarmlord, abbadon, mephiston...) is just hilarious on its own. They are all characters and a such have precision shots, so snipe out the key targets.

Then just for fun there is 2 resurrection orbs in there (can have 6), so a 4+ roll see any of these get back up again, plus with a cronometron in there you get to reroll any one roll every phase

This unit I think can hold their own in a lot of fights.

The most powerful single unit is the swarmlord. Without Iron Arm the swarmlord loses to Skarbrand though.

The most powerful non MC single is probably Abbadon.

The most powerful unit (deathstar) is probably seer council

 Vector Strike wrote:
Eldar Avatar wasn't capable of downing the Swarmlord.

Did you factor is Disarming Strike which would have a chance to force the Swarmlord to fight with a pointy stick?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Eldar Avatar wasn't capable of downing the Swarmlord.

Did you factor is Disarming Strike which would have a chance to force the Swarmlord to fight with a pointy stick?

A strength 6 AP 2 pointy stick. Also, does Disarming Strike even work against Tyranid biomorphs? Apart from Claws and Teeth none of them have any sort of weapon profile. Ruleswise, bonesabres are more analogous to a jump pack than a power sword.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Eldar Avatar wasn't capable of downing the Swarmlord.

Did you factor is Disarming Strike which would have a chance to force the Swarmlord to fight with a pointy stick?

Disarm is very annoying but remember swarmy gets enfeeble in 4/6 games so can still instant death with smash attacks if he is disarmed.