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IssacClarkeisBatman99 wrote:
where would deathwing knights fit in the list of good melee units?

near the bottom of the "good" melee units

well above bad melee units


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IssacClarkeisBatman99 wrote:
As said in the title, what is the most powerful melee unit in the game?
Ive been wondering about this and decided to ask here since you people have more experience with a much wider array of units.

screamer star. Rerollable 2+ invunerable save.


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 juraigamer wrote:

For damage, banshees against anything with a 3+ or worse that isn't a MC.

Beats WS5 Str4 FNP FC AP2 Incubi?


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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
In terms of best, probably the seer council.

Most Powerful?

Well, 30 Death Company Jump Packers with Dual THs with a Reclusiarch, a Captain, a fully kitted out Iron Hands Chapter Master and Lemartes.

3615 Points.

That is probably the most expensive, but I dont know about most powerful.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Also, does Disarming Strike even work against Tyranid biomorphs?

Who knows. We're still waiting on the FAQ for that one.

The Eldar player in me says yes.
The Tyranid player in me says yes.
The fluff monkey in me says I'm an idiot for even contemplating yes as a viable answer.

Asurmen in a Seer council, empower.

S6 AP2 attacks at initiative. Each wound suffered triggers a Ld test or be removed from play. Horrify can be cast in combat. Multiple Horrifys can be cast until one gets through even a 4+ DTW.

Asurmen can get a 3+ invulnerable (to weather models which have massive 1st round bonuses), fortune from the council, can get reroll 1's as a warlord trait. and benefits from almost any of the runes of battle.

Since we're clearly throwing out point considerations, I'm assuming dual FOCs, and you can even throw in 5 Iyanden spiritseers for more buffing/debuffing goodness. Renew can target Asurmen.

 Exergy wrote:

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 juraigamer wrote:

For damage, banshees against anything with a 3+ or worse that isn't a MC.

Beats WS5 Str4 FNP FC AP2 Incubi?

Yes, simply because the banshees go first.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I've done the mathhammer, and there isn't a single model in 40k with a better than 50% chance of taking out the Swarmlord in CC, so as far as single models go it's Swarmy all the way. But when it comes to units, and factoring in survivability, reliability, killing potential, speed and points cost, I'd have to give the mantle of best CC unit to Wraithstars.

Brotherhood Champions probably have a better than 50% chance to kill him, but it's kinda cheating I suppose.

Probably either Seer Council or Scremer Star. The Fact they most units cannot even hurt these units in the first place, and they they can do damage in return is big. Screamer star is probably better against Elite units due to AP2 attacks, while Seer Council is better in general due to flesh bane attacks. Swarmlord though if he can survive the first round would be pretty scarey for either of these units, Shadows in the warp and negating re-rolls causing instant death makes him pretty scarey.


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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I've done the mathhammer, and there isn't a single model in 40k with a better than 50% chance of taking out the Swarmlord in CC, so as far as single models go it's Swarmy all the way. But when it comes to units, and factoring in survivability, reliability, killing potential, speed and points cost, I'd have to give the mantle of best CC unit to Wraithstars.

Brotherhood Champions probably have a better than 50% chance to kill him, but it's kinda cheating I suppose.

Actually they have a far worse that 50% chance to kill him.

With Shadows in the warp they are 50-50 to just pass the psychic test, then need to hit him (at best 75%) which puts them at between 25-37.5% to kill him.

Funny nobody mentioned a Juggy Lord with a full unit of spawn. A very killy squad.

mind shackle scarabs.

Gotta give a shout out to any reasonable melee unit (DCA squad/Paladins/etc.) with attached Inquisitors/Grandmasters with psychotroke/rad grenades. To be fair, it's only the first round of combat but that -2T and crazy effects table can really swing the battle.

Probably not the most powerful in the long run, but can certainly has a large advantage over other melee units for a single round of combat.

DoW

 Whereswaldo wrote:
mind shackle scarabs.

Seriously, a fully kitted out necron lord with a fully kitted out royal court would eat the swarm lord for breakfast. Instant death isn't so good if it's turned back at you.

I'm not sure how they would do against 30 death company. the court would make the death company hit themselves 6 times, plus 19 warscythe hits, and the unit would have a 3 up invuln and a 4 up rp.

The Swarmlord has a 2/3 chance of getting Iron Arm. It's not guaranteed, but it is the norm. Even Mindshackle can't get through eternal warrior.

 NinjaStars wrote:

 Whereswaldo wrote:
mind shackle scarabs.

Seriously, a fully kitted out necron lord with a fully kitted out royal court would eat the swarm lord for breakfast. Instant death isn't so good if it's turned back at you.

I'm not sure how they would do against 30 death company. the court would make the death company hit themselves 6 times, plus 19 warscythe hits, and the unit would have a 3 up invuln and a 4 up rp.

That's a couple units in one, even still the death company would have 25 remaining S8 AP2 hits rerollable hit/wound if all of the 'cron hits landed and wounded...

For 1 force or entry, there is no unit stronger in CC...and they still only really see any table time in apoc games due to cost and the nerfs to CC in 6th

 NinjaStars wrote:

 Whereswaldo wrote:
mind shackle scarabs.

Seriously, a fully kitted out necron lord with a fully kitted out royal court would eat the swarm lord for breakfast. Instant death isn't so good if it's turned back at you.

And if the Swarmlord has Iron Arm and passes at least 1 MSS test before killing itself or just passes the first MSS test it'll eat the unit alive, Considering it will have Iron Arm 67% of the time and pass MSS 50% of the time, that's not good odds on the Necron side.

There is one unit that can beat a swarmlord more than 50% of the time

Another swarmlord with a tyrant guard and a lash whip bone sword prime attatched!

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 NinjaStars wrote:

 Whereswaldo wrote:
mind shackle scarabs.

Seriously, a fully kitted out necron lord with a fully kitted out royal court would eat the swarm lord for breakfast. Instant death isn't so good if it's turned back at you.

And if the Swarmlord has Iron Arm and passes at least 1 MSS test before killing itself or just passes the first MSS test it'll eat the unit alive, Considering it will have Iron Arm 67% of the time and pass MSS 50% of the time, that's not good odds on the Necron side.

If the entire court has mss, then the swarmlord would have to pass the mss test 6 times, each turn.

He has to be talking about single combat...solo units

Swarmlord turns into a crawfish boil vs the DC...point for point swarmy wins, but not unit versus unit

Yep, I'm talking single combat. When it comes to unit vs unit I'd rather have a full unit of upgraded Genestealers with a Broodlord than Swarmy.

I would say one of the most deadly melee units is the CSM bikes of Khorn.

For 265ish points you get 10 bikers with a champion. (give him some fancy gear and some guns to the squad if you want)

The unit get more reliable charge range due to the banner, rage and furious charge.
If they charge a someone they will first rapid fire 10 TL bolters.
Then 10 impact hit with HoW, auto hit str 4.
Then 40 str 5 melee attacks. (rage and furious charge)

Thats 32 dead guardsmen on the charge!
Or 5,5 dead terminators.

 Vombat wrote:
I would say one of the most deadly melee units is the CSM bikes of Khorn.

For 265ish points you get 10 bikers with a champion. (give him some fancy gear and some guns to the squad if you want)

The unit get more reliable charge range due to the banner, rage and furious charge.
If they charge a someone they will first rapid fire 10 TL bolters.
Then 10 impact hit with HoW, auto hit str 4.
Then 40 str 5 melee attacks. (rage and furious charge)

Thats 32 dead guardsmen on the charge!
Or 5,5 dead terminators.

That plus what sweeping advance can do to anything without ATSKNF.

2xFoc game:

7 Wolf lords on thunderwolves with wtn, two fen wolves and a saga each (until you run out of them) including one with wolfkin. Attach them all to a unit of 15 Wolves. Add Logan to give everyone +1A and preferred enemy and thats 31 fen wolves with 4 attacks each on charge or when charged (counter attack) at I5 plus the wolflords 63 attacks. Arm the wolflords with plasma pistol+frostblade- this unit is beast and will ruin anything in the game.

That's not bad...for 9 units

 Exergy wrote:


That is probably the most expensive, but I dont know about most powerful.

If 150 Str 8 AP 2 attacks that reroll all missed hits and wounds doesn't earn that distinction then what will?

I can haz cheezbur... I mean facts?

I'll add one of my own to this discussion.



It is nice to see that Space Marines got their own durable guy that can even be kitted very well to a variable situations, and as a bonus, makes the sky fall down.

I think facts are the only way to discuss about competitive use of different models, although in casual gaming feelings are also very valid points.

One can do their own as a comparison for other units too.

Edit: Oh my Emperor, the Machine Spirit of my Data Slate must have strayed from the True Path and maligned the data. After some recital hymns chart is now corrected in the name of Emperor!

karandras15 wrote:
That's not bad...for 9 units

Its one unit when its on the board. OP didn't stipulate- but i see your point.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


That is probably the most expensive, but I dont know about most powerful.

If 150 Str 8 AP 2 attacks that reroll all missed hits and wounds doesn't earn that distinction then what will?

Actually Str 10 (Furious Charge) and they also have WS5

 soomemafia wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


That is probably the most expensive, but I dont know about most powerful.

If 150 Str 8 AP 2 attacks that reroll all missed hits and wounds doesn't earn that distinction then what will?

Actually Str 10 (Furious Charge) and they also have WS5

The +1 Str happens after the doubling = Str 9
Multiplication/Division always happens before Addition, its why Daemon Weapons rock so much when used with Smash Attacks. (For more info see the BRB section on modifications)

Swarmlord with powers and the ability to have PE.

4 rolls on biomancy means you're facing an on average t8 EW, 6 attacks , all ID causing you to reroll successfully saved INVs.

Lukas the Trickster has over a 50% chance of taking out the Swarmlord, or any other single model unit. He has his own small chance of winning, and then over a 50% of Stasis Bombing(Lukas wins the roll if it ties).

He dies too, but still has over a 50%

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


That is probably the most expensive, but I dont know about most powerful.

If 150 Str 8 AP 2 attacks that reroll all missed hits and wounds doesn't earn that distinction then what will?

striking last and having no reliable save. Screamer star will eat it.

First the screamers kill some death company, as they strike first
Then even with all those rerolls, some of the attacks will miss or fail to wound. (maybe 1/3 will fail to hit or wound)
2++ rerollable save means only 1 in 36 wounds actually goes through.
1-2 wounds to the screamers


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 soomemafia wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


That is probably the most expensive, but I dont know about most powerful.

If 150 Str 8 AP 2 attacks that reroll all missed hits and wounds doesn't earn that distinction then what will?

Actually Str 10 (Furious Charge) and they also have WS5

Even with jump packs they are not guarenteed the charge