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Like the Mastiffs used by the Roman Legions! Haroof!

 Barzam wrote:
I seriously doubt the Imperium has a better understanding of how an animal's mind works.

 Barzam wrote:
As good as Space Marine senses are supposed to be, I find it extremely unlikely that they'd be able to enhance their sense of smell or hearing anywhere near the level of a dog's.

... why?

I mean... you realize... that this is a sci-fi/fantasy universe... where 8-foot tall manmeat charge into battle with chainsaw swords, randomly mutate into dogs and get ridden by other 8-foot tall manmeat after they mutate into dogs?

Read the first book from the Bequin trilogy.

Technically.. they can?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
I seriously doubt the Imperium has a better understanding of how an animal's mind works.

 Barzam wrote:
As good as Space Marine senses are supposed to be, I find it extremely unlikely that they'd be able to enhance their sense of smell or hearing anywhere near the level of a dog's.

... why?

I mean... you realize... that this is a sci-fi/fantasy universe... where 8-foot tall manmeat charge into battle with chainsaw swords, randomly mutate into dogs and get ridden by other 8-foot tall manmeat after they mutate into dogs?

I do realize this. Why do you think I want to have armored dogs with machine guns mounted on them? But, within the fluff that's established, with how straight up backwards the Imperium tends to be towards science, I'm going to go with my gut here and assume that the Imperium's "scientists" have never really given animal psychology much thought.

As to why I don't think the space marines senses can rival those of a dog, well, they physically can't. Now, I'll grant you that Space Wolves probably do have senses that can rival those of a canine's, but they also tend to have a lot of canine features as well. I'd imagine that there's probably quite a few who feature similar nose structures. Canine noses are structured differently from a human's. If you've ever looked at a dog's nose, you'll notice these little slits towards the back of the nose. Those slits are partly what give a dog such a great sense of smell. Those slits make little flaps and when the dog inhales, it pulls in scent particles. As it exhales, those flaps close up the nose in such a way that it keeps the scent particles in the nose but allows the air to escape. That's how they're able to keep a scent. Plus they just plain have way more scent receptors than we do. Dogs are capable of smelling cancer. I haven't read the Bequin novels, but I don't recall any instances where a space marine exhibited similar or superior abilities.

Like people have said, the things SM face like Tyranid hivefleets, Daemonic invasions or Ork Hordes, means Dogs would be utterly useless and redundant. Unless you gave them fully enlcosed power armour (which is a waste of resources, which would be better used constructing armour for actual Space Marines), they would be dead in a few seconds. Why would SM need to smell their prey? They have infrared, night vision and sound filters. Even Modern forces don't use the dogs for front-line offensive combat roles, they are used for base defense and detecting IED's, which an SM could probably detect anyway. Even if he couldn't detect the IEDs. They are the weapon of an insurgency not a Daemonic horde or a Tyranid hivefleet. A counter insurgency would be dealt with by IG so they might use a canine animal for such a role.

How about this?
A dog on planet whatever, saves a spacematine captain from,,, um... A witch (dark eldar)
Captain likes dog, captain is also stranded on planet alone. Dog follows captain. Captain likes dog. Vaptain is rescued. Dog follows onto thunderhawk. Captain keeps dog. Has it altered. Talks to salamander friend. Has custom armor built.

Works for me.

With the above mentioned, I'll have to rebuke my point. That said, I think I did just hear a couple of admissions of hypocrisy in the Loyalists though.

Starting with: So mutants are bad....and Space Marines are essentially super-humans/mutants......so then Space Marines go against Imperial Doctrine?

Furthermore, if the practices of the Gene Seed are in such limbo (to the point recovery of the Gene Seed and reimplanting is the only seemly option to creating more Space Mariens) doesn't this mean that all Space Marines are subject to a slow and agonizing death? Because eventually, they'll all either be taken, corrupted or destroyed and if no new Gene Seeds are produced, then no new Space Marines can be produced either?

On a side note, how can the Imperium, with all of it's "Kill the Heretic! Burn the Mutant! Rape the Alien!" keep Seraphs, mutants, Ogryns and Servitors in it's ranks? Aren't all of these an affront to the Human Form? Isn't the ASTARTES an affront to that perfection?

The Rot smells deeper, me thinks.

Starting with: So mutants are bad....and Space Marines are essentially super-humans/mutants......so then Space Marines go against Imperial Doctrine?

The Sisters of Battle often think so, yes, though this is not a all-encompassing thought.

Furthermore, if the practices of the Gene Seed are in such limbo (to the point recovery of the Gene Seed and reimplanting is the only seemly option to creating more Space Mariens) doesn't this mean that all Space Marines are subject to a slow and agonizing death? Because eventually, they'll all either be taken, corrupted or destroyed and if no knew Gene Seeds are produced, then no new Space Marines can be produced either?

Yes. Welcome to Grimdark.

On a side note, how can the Imperium, with all of it's "Kill the Heretic! Burn the Mutant! Rape the Alien!" keep Seraphs, mutants, Ogryns and Servitors in it's ranks? Aren't all of these an affront to the Human Form? Isn't the ASTARTES an affront to that perfection?

A Cherubim (a Seraphim is a type of Sister of Battle) is a vat-grown organic machine. A servitor is a machine that uses organic components. The Adeptus Mechanicus, however, is responsible for these things and they are not the Ecclesiarchy.

On many worlds, Ogryns and Ratlings *are* burned at the stake for being mutants (and many Puritan Inquisitors will have them purged on sight). However, every world of the Imperium is different. On some worlds, they are accepted as a second-class citizen (of sorts), so long as they don't show up in polite society. On other worlds? Well, on other worlds, possession of technology as complex as a comm-bead will get you burned at the stake for witchery.

New gene-seed is produced.
It's just slow.
More to the point i'm fairly sure Imperial doctrine is generaly hypocritical in all regards.
Navigators and Space Marines are fairly vital (SM less so) to the Imperium and yet both are mutants. Astartes and Navigators get a pass because the Emperor said so. That's pretty much it.
Ogryns and Ratlings are supposedly close enough to humans to allow them to live together.

I just like these admissions of the Imperiums not so greatness. lol

Too many times, I find fans treating them like Boy Scouts and the Chaos Marines I love so dearly as these great abominations deserving a slow death in a long fire.

Well, the latter is true, of course, but it would not be SciFi-Gothic if the Imperium was not a monolithic juggernaut rotting from within and creaking slowly forward, crushing all beneath it in its blind march towards armageddon.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, the latter is true, of course, but it would not be SciFi-Gothic if the Imperium was not a monolithic juggernaut rotting from within and creaking slowly forward, crushing all beneath it in its blind march towards armageddon.

But you've already got that. Now that it's settled and could be expanded on internally and independently because of the sheer scope of the environment, it's time to move on to something better. How about and even more grimdark where the baddies are in charge and systematically slaughtering the surviving chapters, and it is up to Man to defend the remnant Space Marines, no longer the other way around. The scope of warfare changes, more guerrilla tactics strong-men and the evolution of man to a greater potential naturally than the space marines could achieve through the gene seed. Something like that. I picture something like 7 ft tall, 180 lbs stick men with dense musculature, redundancy organs, etc. etc. Super fast with enough strength to be dangerous.

Something like that.

How about this?
A dog on planet whatever, saves a spacematine captain from,,, um... A witch (dark eldar)
Captain likes dog, captain is also stranded on planet alone. Dog follows captain. Captain likes dog. Vaptain is rescued. Dog follows onto thunderhawk. Captain keeps dog. Has it altered. Talks to salamander friend. Has custom armor built.

You, um...


You already posted that, dude.

How about this? A dog on planet whatever, saves a spacematine captain from,,, um... A witch (dark eldar) Captain likes dog, captain is also stranded on planet alone. Dog follows captain. Captain likes dog. Vaptain is rescued. Dog follows onto thunderhawk. Captain keeps dog. Has it altered. Talks to salamander friend. Has custom armor built.

 Extreaminatus wrote:
You, um...


You already posted that, dude.

This is why we don't copy paste after 1:00 am.

 uk_crow wrote:
Like people have said, the things SM face like Tyranid hivefleets, Daemonic invasions or Ork Hordes, means Dogs would be utterly useless and redundant. Unless you gave them fully enlcosed power armour (which is a waste of resources, which would be better used constructing armour for actual Space Marines), they would be dead in a few seconds. Why would SM need to smell their prey? They have infrared, night vision and sound filters. Even Modern forces don't use the dogs for front-line offensive combat roles, they are used for base defense and detecting IED's, which an SM could probably detect anyway. Even if he couldn't detect the IEDs. They are the weapon of an insurgency not a Daemonic horde or a Tyranid hivefleet. A counter insurgency would be dealt with by IG so they might use a canine animal for such a role.

Well the imperium does use animals in the armies in a combat, see rough riders. And really nothing but a lack of request is stopping the Mechanicuim BIologicous from doing the canine equivalent of Arcoflaggelents. A 250+ pound canine, which is not uncommon today, + another 150-200 lbs of Mechanicum enhancement and it will stand up to rather allot of nastiness.

why not greenstuff some spaniel ears on a space marine without his helmet? problem solved surely? maybe with a dead pheasant in his mouth?

i think dogs should be included in an IG list - perhaps doing what the russians did in WW2 by training them to think that food is under every tank and then releasing them with an anti tank mine strapped to their back!

I think brass eye did an episode on IRA bomb dogs too. Worthy of cultists !!!!!!

Just as humble humans evolved into the mighty Ogryn, so to could the average canine companion have evolved into a beast that would give a carnifex pause for thought.

Just because it's not been written about, doesn't mean it 'can't have happened'. GW's design team have always encouraged players to create their own chapters, regiments, craftworlds and waaghs.

If someone wants to create a chapter called 'Emperor's Huntsmen' and perhaps use the SW codex with mastiffs instead of wolves, it's perfectly feasible. The 'dogs would get wasted by the droppods/daemons/environments etc' arguments don't stand up in any way to 'if humans can become ogryns on deathworlds, just imagine what dogs could become...' counter.

Write a decent backstory and you're golden.




Also, I intend to have dogs in my Imperial Guard when I make them... mighty pugs!

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, the latter is true, of course, but it would not be SciFi-Gothic if the Imperium was not a monolithic juggernaut rotting from within and creaking slowly forward, crushing all beneath it in its blind march towards armageddon.

But you've already got that. Now that it's settled and could be expanded on internally and independently because of the sheer scope of the environment, it's time to move on to something better. How about and even more grimdark where the baddies are in charge and systematically slaughtering the surviving chapters, and it is up to Man to defend the remnant Space Marines, no longer the other way around. The scope of warfare changes, more guerrilla tactics strong-men and the evolution of man to a greater potential naturally than the space marines could achieve through the gene seed. Something like that. I picture something like 7 ft tall, 180 lbs stick men with dense musculature, redundancy organs, etc. etc. Super fast with enough strength to be dangerous.

Something like that.

Well... it depends on who those "baddies" are. Really, though, with their success rate (or lack thereof) at keeping Space Marines from turning to Chaos or becoming renegades, it might be best to scrap the project entirely, save for those who can prove that neither they nor any of their Successor Chapters have ever fallen or gone renegade, and send the rest on Penitent Crusades until there are none left.