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me and a friend were talking about this a while ago. do space marines have attack dogs?, if not why not?

Aside from the obvious (Space Wolves), no, I don't think that they do.

If I had to give a reason why, I would just say that they don't fill any role that the marines themselves cannot. They're not particularly faster than marines, and if they are, it's only marginally. They would not last at all in a fight, where as marines can take a beating. Lastly, they'd be pretty awful in a melee, seeing as they have to stick to their bite and claws, where as marines have chainswords, power weapons that can cut through armor, and thunder hammers. Hell, marine's would probably be better off fighting with their fists.

Just my two cents

 the shrouded lord wrote:
me and a friend were talking about this a while ago. do space marines have attack dogs?, if not why not?

What's that boy you smell chaos ?

Go get those chaos space marines !!!

Thats a good boy here is a nice Ork steak for you.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
me and a friend were talking about this a while ago. do space marines have attack dogs?, if not why not?

Because at war, there is no time for cute pets
Just imagine what any of the foes worthy for a Space Marine attack, would do to a dog.

See I'm thinking more along the lines of a massive genetically augmented german shepord with like , lighting claws embedded in their paws.

In Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 3.5 edition, you could take up to four chaos hounds per character (12 pts each).
http://86bb71d19d3bcb79effc-d9e6924a0395cb1b5b9f03b7640d26eb.r91.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dawn-of-war-2-chaos-rising-wallpaper-small.jpg

Good old times for Chaos.

First up: The systems in a marine's armor is far better than anything a dog could possibly provide. Smell, hearing, speed, etc.

More importantly though is that a Marine is supposed to be dropped in the most horrible battlefields in the known galaxy. An attack dog of any sort would simply be torn to shreds before being useful in any sense of the word.

one of the biggest reasons to use dogs in the military is to make use of their superior senses. this is less then relevent for space marines. it's universally known space wolves have, at least, "canine level senses" and it's been suggested in at least one BL novel that this is common to all marines

BrianDavion wrote:
one of the biggest reasons to use dogs in the military is to make use of their superior senses. this is less then relevent for space marines. it's universally known space wolves have, at least, "canine level senses" and it's been suggested in at least one BL novel that this is common to all marines

So in other words the marines ARE the attack dogs.

There are attack dogs of sorts in fluff.

I think they are called Cyber Mastiffs or something (there are cybernetic, all flesh, or all robotic kinds I think)
Theres one in Cadian Blood but its used by a Cadian sergeant not the space marines.

I would assumed it would be possible for Space Marines to use them for patrol and detection purposes but I've never seen mention of Space Marines using them. Plus like others said, Power Armor systems (and biological augmentations possibly) that space marines possess could make them moot in a tactical or strategic use.

Arbites use cyber mastiffs.

Space Marines don't need dogs. The "wolves" the Vylka Fenrika use are debased, failed aspirants, and they are basically giving them a chance to die doing something at least somewhat useful.

Dogs won't survive deployment via drop-pod. They would end up being a furry red smear on the ceiling.

BrianDavion wrote:
one of the biggest reasons to use dogs in the military is to make use of their superior senses. this is less then relevent for space marines. it's universally known space wolves have, at least, "canine level senses" and it's been suggested in at least one BL novel that this is common to all marines

Dogs are also expendable and smaller. You can get a dog into holes that a person cannot, they can sniff for bombs or foes and if they die it is less costly than a man, etc.

So, dogs would still have a place in say Imperial Guard armies, but as Marines often don't do a lot of the jobs you'd use a dog for, they are less important.

I'm just going to point out, The Iron Snakes do use dogs. Part of their training involves using dogs to hunt down Dark Eldar. They make mention of using dogs early in the story, but don't mention it again and no dogs are mentioned during the scenes at their HQ, but I'd say it can be assumed that the Iron Snakes at least have a stock of dogs to use in battle.

As good as Space Marine senses are supposed to be, I find it extremely unlikely that they'd be able to enhance their sense of smell or hearing anywhere near the level of a dog's. Especially since part of the reason dogs have such good senses is due to the actual shape and design of their ears and noses. Maybe Space Wolves come close, but I really doubt any of the others do.

I'd love to see a chapter using genetically engineered dogs in power armor with servo harnesses and bolters attached.

 Barzam wrote:
I'm just going to point out, The Iron Snakes do use dogs. Part of their training involves using dogs to hunt down Dark Eldar. They make mention of using dogs early in the story, but don't mention it again and no dogs are mentioned during the scenes at their HQ, but I'd say it can be assumed that the Iron Snakes at least have a stock of dogs to use in battle.

Wrong.

The dog that was used at the beginning of Brotherhood of The Snake belonged to the woman that met and went with the Space Marine that past training (not scout, not initiate, but full-blown battle-brother space marine) to track the Dark Eldar. For starters, the Iron Snakes do not use dogs as part of their training nor would they have a stock of dogs ever seeing as how they're from a sea-faring planet. I'd say that you should probably either re-read the novel or check your reading comprehension since one dog, mentioned for one part of the story, does not a "stock of dogs" make.

Ithaka isn't a purely water planet. It has land masses. It would stand to reason that the human population on Ithaka lives on the land masses and owns dogs. Plus, their main base is on Ithaka's moon Karybdis, not Ithaka itself. Furthermore, I did say that the dog was only in one part and never mentioned again.

And I'm going to quote Lexicanum here:

One of their unique battle practices is that they trained to use dogs in combat, especially in tracking and attacking Dark Eldar

Here's the link if you don't believe me.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Snakes
Just scroll down to section on "Tactics and Equipment"

So... wrong? No. Not really.

Funny enough, I'm painting a Dark Angels successor chapter called the "Wolfhounds" which was cut off for a few hundred of years and severely savaged by Tyranids before reforming under new livery etc, which specialises in killing xenos (tyranids specifically). They are loosely based on Celtic Mythology (Fianna, Red Branch Knights, the Hound of Ulster etc). In the background fluff (not finished) they used a breed of Wolfhound (used by the natives of a death world they recruit from to hunt large native and stranded feral tyranids). Essentially these hounds are akin to the Wolves on fenris. I thought I was being original.... I guess not.

Damn GW you could have a winner here Chiwawa in power armor a Marines best friend.

But seriously, scouts and lone snipers would be the ones IMO who could have (augmented) dogs

I can't see why a Space Marine Chapter or two would not use attack dogs if you wanted them to/came up with a reason for their existence. I wanted to do a Space Marine Chapter based on the old English fox hunts, with the 'hunters' mounted on bikes - no idea how I would have included the hounds. Still the idea was there.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
me and a friend were talking about this a while ago. do space marines have attack dogs?, if not why not?

Because at war, there is no time for cute pets
Just imagine what any of the foes worthy for a Space Marine attack, would do to a dog.

Now this is crap. Khorne, the God of Battle, has puppies. Karanak, three headed puppy with superior senses. So great his Karanak that he felled a Dark Eldar Ravager and it's leader after allowing himself to be captured. The Hounds of the Warp serve an extremely fierce and grave purpose, one that spells inevitable death and torment for whoever hears their howls. +__+

But that is Chaos and senses greater than the mundane, blah-blah. Let's talk Space Marines: Did anyone forget one of the best primary assets of having an attack dog? That they have a significantly lower and more agile profile? You have an attack dog because it can get in close, quick and lock in melee while you walk up and put one in the head and two in the chest. The fact that the Space Marines DON'T seem to use their own variant of attack dogs, suggest a greater limitation of their tactical prowess. That's right. I said it. +__+ Chaos = Evolution.

Another "attack puppy" from Chaos that the Space Marines could learn a lesson from by getting that stick unwedged: Chaos Space Marine Maulerfiends. Or any of the Daemon Engines for that matter. Defilers are funny in that because they are sentient, they are just as likely to pick up your command rhino and blast away point blank with the Battle Cannon as it is shred you to pieces and burn the remains. Sure, it doesn't fit the physical requirements we're talking about, but the spirit is there.

Space Marines would do well to get themselves some attack dog equivalents. +__+

Edit: Could you imagine if the Space Marines created Jetpack Beasts? :O That would be ungodly.

Like I said, power armored, genetically enhanced war dogs for Space Marines. Give them servo harnesses and have a bolter fitted to one of those arms. That would be badass.

Power Armor isn't cheap. They don't have a pattern for it to fit a non-humanoid body.

At best, they might get the cyber-mastiffs that the Arbites have, only to lose them on first contact with anything of the sort that the Space Marines are designed to face, because Xenos or Daemons of that caliber are not worried about your little dog...

... and might, in fact, possess it (in the case of Daemons), because animals don't have the capacity for faith, or the will to resist something like a Daemon.

Tactically, these are an unsound choice.

While I'm willing to concede to Psienesis' points (especially in regards to animal effectiveness against Daemons, when Machines are already in question) however, I'd like to expand a little more on the idea of attack dogs.

Give them all the physiological goodness of a Space Marine. Make them considerably more intelligent, to the level of a Sphinx, making them more stalwart against psyker influence (kinda how Khorne bestows blessings upon his hounds). Dunno about bolters short of maybe a single back mounted unit, or perhaps on a larger breed have cyclone missile launchers.

While it may not seem sound at first, creativity could make it far more interesting, much the way the Inquisition employs "seraph" body guards that are void unto the warp, which confounds me the way Imperium peoples are confounded by the Warp and such.

I still say though that if the Chaos Daemons can employ hounds like Khornes Flesh Hounds and Nurgles Beasts, then the Space Marines could concot some blasphemy of their own.

Give them all the physiological goodness of a Space Marine. Make them considerably more intelligent, to the level of a Sphinx, making them more stalwart against psyker influence (kinda how Khorne bestows blessings upon his hounds). Dunno about bolters short of maybe a single back mounted unit, or perhaps on a larger breed have cyclone missile launchers.

If they could do that, they could repair the flaws in the geneseed of the existing Marines. However, they cannot. The geneseed project, which is what makes a Space Marine a Space Marine, is the purview of the Emperor. He alone knows how he did it, even Fabius Bile has had serious difficulties in replicating the process.

So what you'd end up with is a bunch of horribly mutated dead dogs. They can't make the geneseed work in half of the human population, what makes you think they'll get it to work in a non-human creature?

Why do Khornates get Flesh-hounds? Because those are daemons. Khorne wanted hunting dogs, so he made hunting dogs. He also made giant brass rhino-dogs and lets people ride around on them and name them Stampy. Point being, the Flesh-hounds of Khorne aren't natural creatures, they're warp-spawn.

There is nothing stopping Marines from using dogs. However, Roboute Guilliman disdained the use of augmented allies in his Codex Asarties, preferring to sharply divide the powers of the Imperium in order to prevent any one faction from retaining power.

Thus the Adepts of Mars no longer could provide military weaponbeasts and cyberfamiliars to their loyal Asarties allies. Except of course divergent chapters like the Space Wolves who retain the use of augmented animals.

Certainly, the Wolves and other chapters like them don't need the enhanced senses that the animals have, but their bodies can be enhanced to near Space Marine levels and used as loyal forces to augment the Marine's numbers. For some foes, such as Traitor guard or Xenos Tau are notably lacking in close in combat, and the swift and deadly canine companions can make short work of isolated squads, leaving the Marines to deal with larger threats such as Battlesuits and Tanks.

Of course, whispers that some of these beasts were themselves Marines, such as the creature known as the Redmaw, and are herded into the enemy to find absolution with the Emperor, continue to spread.

 Barzam wrote:
Ithaka isn't a purely water planet. It has land masses. It would stand to reason that the human population on Ithaka lives on the land masses and owns dogs. Plus, their main base is on Ithaka's moon Karybdis, not Ithaka itself. Furthermore, I did say that the dog was only in one part and never mentioned again.

And I'm going to quote Lexicanum here:

One of their unique battle practices is that they trained to use dogs in combat, especially in tracking and attacking Dark Eldar

Here's the link if you don't believe me.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Snakes
Just scroll down to section on "Tactics and Equipment"

So... wrong? No. Not really.

I'm going to quote Lexicanum here as well, but include the source of your original quote:

Lexicanum wrote:
One of their unique battle practices is that they trained to use dogs in combat, especially in tracking and attacking Dark Eldar.[1]

Sources
•1: Brothers of the Snake (Novel), by Dan Abnett

The reference for that line about training and using dogs to track Dark Eldar comes from the novel by Dan Abnet and the only dog ever mentioned in the book belonged to the humans of the planet, not the marine sent to investigate Dark Eldar sightings. To adress your other point, the humans on Ithaka and the Space Marines in the fortress monestary on its moon are two completely different sets of beings, so while I agree that humans on the planet own dogs, I disagree that the marines do.

So...wrong? Yes. Yes really.

But, in your defense, Lexicanum does say that, but whomever added that in was mistaken about where the dog came from.


And NOW TO GET BACK ON TOPIC. I don't think Space Marines would ever need the specialized skills that combat dogs provide since they're post-human super men already. They don't need to the sense of smell of a dog, they have that already. They wouldn't need a dog's speed or ability to take down fleeing targets since they're already much faster and bulkier than un-augmented humans (and several forms of xenos). They don't need the snuggliness of dogs since they already have serfs train their minds constantly to become an veritable island of manliness. I mean, everything a dog provides for a man is not needed by a Space Marine.

I never said that particular dog belonged to the marine. And The Iron Snakes can't have dogs on Karybdis.... why?

Anyway, human understanding of animal minds is spotty even now. I seriously doubt the Imperium has a better understanding of how an animal's mind works. So, for all we know, animals do have a concept of faith that could protect them from daemonic possession.

And why wouldn't the Imperium be able to, shall we say "uplift" dogs to the level of the astartes? Perhaps it's easier for them to manipulate the genetics of an animal than a human's? We've already messed with dogs' genetics to the point that we can get massive dogs like Tibetan Mastiffs. Those things can take down tigers themselves, and that's without even using the kind of invasive genetic tampering the Mechanicus could do. I bet if they were so inclined, the Imperium could modify dogs to the point of actually being superior to the Astartes. The problem is, they won't. Human supremacy and all that.

I'll also argue that Astartes' senses aren't superior to a dog's. There's no way a regular Space Marine's sense of smell is going to be better.

The Iron Snake at the beginning does state that dogs are good at tracking Dark Eldar, whether they are used training is another story...

Anyway, human understanding of animal minds is spotty even now. I seriously doubt the Imperium has a better understanding of how an animal's mind works. So, for all we know, animals do have a concept of faith that could protect them from daemonic possession.

They wire animal brains into machines to make servitor machine-spirits with them. They're pretty good at it.

And why wouldn't the Imperium be able to, shall we say "uplift" dogs to the level of the astartes? Perhaps it's easier for them to manipulate the genetics of an animal than a human's? We've already messed with dogs' genetics to the point that we can get massive dogs like Tibetan Mastiffs. Those things can take down tigers themselves, and that's without even using the kind of invasive genetic tampering the Mechanicus could do. I bet if they were so inclined, the Imperium could modify dogs to the point of actually being superior to the Astartes. The problem is, they won't. Human supremacy and all that.

Because Humanity is destined to rule the stars unopposed by Xenos and Mutants. Uplifting a dog to be on par with Humanity, or better, is a violation of the word of the God-Emperor. This is why the Imperium purges the mutant, they are a debasement of the sacred human form. An affront to the God-Emperor. A blasphemy of the flesh.

 Barzam wrote:
I never said that particular dog belonged to the marine. And The Iron Snakes can't have dogs on Karybdis.... why?

Yeah, you did say it was that particular dog.

 Barzam wrote:
They make mention of using dogs early in the story, but don't mention it again and no dogs are mentioned during the scenes at their HQ...

It was the only dog mentioned in the entirety of the novel which your reference (Lexicanum) is referencing. And the marines on Karybdis not having dogs with them seems logical since:
1) Dogs are never mentioned as being in the monestary.

So, tell me how it's logical that they keep a stock of dogs when the only dog in the novel wasn't theirs and no dogs were ever mentioned as being at their HQ.

Barzam wrote:
Anyway, human understanding of animal minds is spotty even now. I seriously doubt the Imperium has a better understanding of how an animal's mind works. So, for all we know, animals do have a concept of faith that could protect them from daemonic possession.

This could be true, but I think that saying they have a sense of faith (as in religous devotion) would imply animals having a level of self-awareness that animals lack. It may be that animals just don't have the same kind of warp presence that humans have which protects them from daemonic pssession (ie the daemons can't perceive them, so they just pass them by.)

Barzam wrote:
And why wouldn't the Imperium be able to, shall we say "uplift" dogs to the level of the astartes? Perhaps it's easier for them to manipulate the genetics of an animal than a human's? We've already messed with dogs' genetics to the point that we can get massive dogs like Tibetan Mastiffs. Those things can take down tigers themselves, and that's without even using the kind of invasive genetic tampering the Mechanicus could do. I bet if they were so inclined, the Imperium could modify dogs to the point of actually being superior to the Astartes. The problem is, they won't. Human supremacy and all that.

They have. They're called Thunderwolves. And Cybermastiffs.

Also this:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because Humanity is destined to rule the stars unopposed by Xenos and Mutants. Uplifting a dog to be on par with Humanity, or better, is a violation of the word of the God-Emperor. This is why the Imperium purges the mutant, they are a debasement of the sacred human form. An affront to the God-Emperor. A blasphemy of the flesh.

Barzam wrote:
I'll also argue that Astartes' senses aren't superior to a dog's. There's no way a regular Space Marine's sense of smell is going to be better.

Maybe not, but I would argue that Space Wolves are on par, even if other Chapter's aren't.