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1. Yes really. Beyond really. Absolutely.
2. Hero game won by the multi wound heros wielding power fists and melta bombs. Getting them into combat with the enemies hero is one of the biggest aspects of the game.
3. Yes, cheese units are overpowered. For every cheese unit with a gun, you will see 2 that are geared towards close combat and although they may carry a gun, a bolt pistol is not a game changer. 50 rending strength 5 attacks are.
4. Learn to use your transports. You may have your games confused "Methul Bawks" are not items used in 40k.The ability to hop out of a transport in the enemy deployment zone into cover where you get a 4+ save in addition to your armor save and striking first if you are assaulted after deployment is a great thing. Then shooting and assaulting on your following turn is even more great. Add in the large numbers of open toped or assault vehicles where you can just assault right out of them and you top off the cake.
5. Getting cover saves is actually easier now than ever before. You don't even have to be in cover, just have another unit intermixed and you get it in the wide open. So yes, if you are unable to get one, it is due to your own lack of playing skill.
6. Throwaway units are just that. cheap units that you spend next to zero points for to guarantee your heavy hitters take out who you want them to. Again, check your own playing skill if you are unable to effectively use them. Tau overwatch can be killer. Fortunately, after you get into close combat, they are dead (even if lowly guardsmen assault them.
7. There are very MANY ways to get around a gunline in this edition. If you are unable to find them, don't blame the game, learn to play better. Post for help in a tactics forum or talk to someone with more experience.
8. I have actually played since Rogue Trader and every edition since then.
9. If presenting a reasonable argument and backing it up with facts and evidence is your idea of trolling, so be it .Instead of name calling, you would better served in understanding that there are players who have more experience than yourself along with a greater grasp of tactics and strategy. Your best bet would be to play a few games with both army types and learning new tactics. If simply rushing across open fields don't work for you, try something else, try different combinations and army builds. If you are looking for a coach, I am sure that there are plenty of old timers here who would be willing to help you out.

"

Echoing some other threads in this post, a game from way back in 1990 stands out to me.

Playing at the Games Workshop in College Park, Maryland, facing a Genestealer cult army. At the start of the game, my opponent told me I will get one round of shooting with my Ultramarines and that was it. His words proved to be true, the genestealers assaulted squads, ate them, and consolidated into assault with the next squad again and again. There wasn't enough room on the board to get away from them. Drove me to Chaos just to get a CL who could stand up to these things.

This game stops being fun when people are prevented from having full turns. Consolidating into assault is a mechanic that makes the game particularly unfun for players. I could totally see how this rule suited genestealers and made them seem a little more realistic, but also made them nearly impossible to beat. It's one of those things where the game can't be too real or it stops being run.

EVIL INC wrote:
1. Yes really. Beyond really. Absolutely.
2. Hero game won by the multi wound heros wielding power fists and melta bombs. Getting them into combat with the enemies hero is one of the biggest aspects of the game.
3. Yes, cheese units are overpowered. For every cheese unit with a gun, you will see 2 that are geared towards close combat and although they may carry a gun, a bolt pistol is not a game changer. 50 rending strength 5 attacks are.
4. Learn to use your transports. You may have your games confused "Methul Bawks" are not items used in 40k.The ability to hop out of a transport in the enemy deployment zone into cover where you get a 4+ save in addition to your armor save and striking first if you are assaulted after deployment is a great thing. Then shooting and assaulting on your following turn is even more great. Add in the large numbers of open toped or assault vehicles where you can just assault right out of them and you top off the cake.
5. Getting cover saves is actually easier now than ever before. You don't even have to be in cover, just have another unit intermixed and you get it in the wide open. So yes, if you are unable to get one, it is due to your own lack of playing skill.
6. Throwaway units are just that. cheap units that you spend next to zero points for to guarantee your heavy hitters take out who you want them to. Again, check your own playing skill if you are unable to effectively use them. Tau overwatch can be killer. Fortunately, after you get into close combat, they are dead (even if lowly guardsmen assault them.
7. There are very MANY ways to get around a gunline in this edition. If you are unable to find them, don't blame the game, learn to play better. Post for help in a tactics forum or talk to someone with more experience.
8. I have actually played since Rogue Trader and every edition since then.
9. If presenting a reasonable argument and backing it up with facts and evidence is your idea of trolling, so be it .Instead of name calling, you would better served in understanding that there are players who have more experience than yourself along with a greater grasp of tactics and strategy. Your best bet would be to play a few games with both army types and learning new tactics. If simply rushing across open fields don't work for you, try something else, try different combinations and army builds. If you are looking for a coach, I am sure that there are plenty of old timers here who would be willing to help you out.

"

1. What facts make CC better than shooting this edition? 2. Wait... then why are Tau so popular? Oh silly me I forgot about O'Sho'vire and his power fist and melta bomb! Oh! And the Eldar with their close combat stick of not transport gun. It is a big aspect because people like it.
3. You keep on saying somebody back it up with evidence yet where is that evidence? What is this 50 rending strength 5 attacks coming from?
4. And why don't I point out transports can also help shooty armies get closer to shoot, escape and shoot, and in the case of Eldar, be the shooting? You also seem to imply that the medium-low armored vehicles aren't easy to kill. Rhinos don't last long in the meta. Also same for guns. Also wait... having to wait a turn is better for me to do cc? Where I get shot at and then overwatched? Wait... where's my open topped rhino for my assaulty chaos army? Or my chaos daemon open topped vehicles?
5. Waaait. Season 5 you only needed a percentage of your units in cover which meant you could have a guy in the open that got a cover save. Now though, hey my giant horde can be focus fired actually!
6. And throwaway units also work for shooting. Hey look they want to assault me! Well time to put these units that have been whittled down or are my own throwaway units to block their way to my important dudes.
7. Then why aren't there more ork cc specialized armies, Black Templar, CSM, pretty much any army that isn't chaos daemons?
9. Here's the thing. THere is no evidence. There are claims and then spouting you just need to learn better tactics. What evidence have you that CC is better? Have you seen the dominant members of competitive gaming? At best cc is there in a small way of a few elite units the rest all shooting oriented. Tau dominate the competitions with eldar specialized in shooting being up there as well. CC is not the dominant powerhouse and hasn't been since 3rd edition or so. And shooting isn't a disadvantage. I'd rather have a plasma gun than a power sword any day.

EVIL INC wrote:
1. Yes really. Beyond really. Absolutely.
2. Hero game won by the multi wound heros wielding power fists and melta bombs. Getting them into combat with the enemies hero is one of the biggest aspects of the game.
3. Yes, cheese units are overpowered. For every cheese unit with a gun, you will see 2 that are geared towards close combat and although they may carry a gun, a bolt pistol is not a game changer. 50 rending strength 5 attacks are.
4. Learn to use your transports. You may have your games confused "Methul Bawks" are not items used in 40k.The ability to hop out of a transport in the enemy deployment zone into cover where you get a 4+ save in addition to your armor save and striking first if you are assaulted after deployment is a great thing. Then shooting and assaulting on your following turn is even more great. Add in the large numbers of open toped or assault vehicles where you can just assault right out of them and you top off the cake.
5. Getting cover saves is actually easier now than ever before. You don't even have to be in cover, just have another unit intermixed and you get it in the wide open. So yes, if you are unable to get one, it is due to your own lack of playing skill.
6. Throwaway units are just that. cheap units that you spend next to zero points for to guarantee your heavy hitters take out who you want them to. Again, check your own playing skill if you are unable to effectively use them. Tau overwatch can be killer. Fortunately, after you get into close combat, they are dead (even if lowly guardsmen assault them.
7. There are very MANY ways to get around a gunline in this edition. If you are unable to find them, don't blame the game, learn to play better. Post for help in a tactics forum or talk to someone with more experience.
8. I have actually played since Rogue Trader and every edition since then.
9. If presenting a reasonable argument and backing it up with facts and evidence is your idea of trolling, so be it .Instead of name calling, you would better served in understanding that there are players who have more experience than yourself along with a greater grasp of tactics and strategy. Your best bet would be to play a few games with both army types and learning new tactics. If simply rushing across open fields don't work for you, try something else, try different combinations and army builds. If you are looking for a coach, I am sure that there are plenty of old timers here who would be willing to help you out.

"

1) You haven't yet given a single piece of evidence as to this. You haven't even given us an in-game example, such as form personal experience.

2) Have you seen the rules this ed? This is factually incorrect. Characters tend to be in for either the buffs or the shooty.

3) Name some. Cheese this ed: Heldrakes (cannot assault), Riptide (is immeasurably better shooting than assaulting), Vendettas (cannot assault). And so on.

4) I call on anyone in this thread to prove my earlier statement about transports to be wrong. And the standard cover save is a 5+, 4+ is uncommon.

5) You seem to forget how fliers and barrage weapons work. And the fact that meatshields can be circumvented. And that there are numerous weapons around that ignore cover. It takes an uncommonly skilled player to succeed in assault, unless they're playing daemons. In which case, they may have a fair chance.

6) 5 ppm is not next to zero. And they are pointless if they are getting eradicated in one round anyway. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on melee users this ed simply being incompetent, rather than explaining what we're doing wrong.

7) So far you have given no evidence as to why melee is more powerful than shooting. And you have given none of your "million" ways to get around a gunline.

8) Methinks we have a fibber.

9) You have not in any way provided a reasonable argument with any sort of facts or evidence or explanation. I have provided a number of examples where shooting is very powerful, and yet you seem adamant that melee is better. Until such time as you actually explain yourself, you're a rather useless part of this "debate".
And as for "simply rushing across", I don't do that. I tried advancing through cover and using transports, it never worked out. So I've moved onto being shooty. And it has proved far more effective.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Echoing some other threads in this post, a game from way back in 1990 stands out to me.

Playing at the Games Workshop in College Park, Maryland, facing a Genestealer cult army. At the start of the game, my opponent told me I will get one round of shooting with my Ultramarines and that was it. His words proved to be true, the genestealers assaulted squads, ate them, and consolidated into assault with the next squad again and again. There wasn't enough room on the board to get away from them. Drove me to Chaos just to get a CL who could stand up to these things.

This game stops being fun when people are prevented from having full turns. Consolidating into assault is a mechanic that makes the game particularly unfun for players. I could totally see how this rule suited genestealers and made them seem a little more realistic, but also made them nearly impossible to beat. It's one of those things where the game can't be too real or it stops being run.

Keep in mind that was 1990 . Things have changed since then. It also implies that the enemy has bunched all their models in a way you can just hop 6" from one unit to another. That being said, this is why I disagree with consolidating into other combat. Between shooting and cc, cc is the worse of the two. That being said, a buff such as this to cc would arguably only buff the mobile units that CAN make turn 2 charges. The units that really suffer are the ones that have to wait until turn 4 to generally actually get into cc. Yeah sure thiis would make up for turn upon turn of watching your models die, it wouldn't be much fun to just break it down right there.

I think my most crushing game was some time ago. I built a khorne list. Lots of zerkers, a khorne lord on steed with spawn guard, some oblit support.... I wanted to play a cc army and tally the dead. Entirely casual game. I was fighting a friend playing eldar. Wave serpents, Warp spiders, and a tank that could make mince my berzerkers. He crushed me. I had not made it past halfway before he had slaughtered my spawn guard, was about to kill my khorne lord (I failed a charge that lost my spawn. I needed a 3. I got a 2). His wave serpent ran around me slaughtering more. Any attempt to get closer only meant him shoving his troops into a skimmer to fly over me and escape all the while shooting me down. And then he charged me and gave me the win. The game was going to be a tabling turn 3 with me having killed not a single one of his models. There was nothing I could do. He saw that and charged me because he was my friend and wanted me to have just as much fun as him. I gave him the victory for the tournament match . He would have won and the fact that he did that meant so much to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh! And welcome to dakkadakka EVIL INC!

1. I have provided credible evidence along with actual proof. Your using lack of playing ability as an excuse to ignore it does not negate that it is a simple fact. Again, Learn tactics and strategy to help you overcome this lack of playing ability. I am sure that there are plenty here who would be willing to coach you.
2. Yes, I have seen the rules for this edition. It is factually correct. Your stating otherwise does not alter the black and white words written into the rulebook.
3. Helldrakes vector strike, close combat, genestealers and variants, orks, the list goes on and on. Even the riptide which is considered a shooty unit is extremely effective in close combat.
4. Believe it or not, you ARE allowed to assault out ork trucks and battlewagons and storm ravens along with such items as the 3 land raider varients. All of which you see quite often (usually in multiples). Look into the rulebook under open topped and assault vehicles. The rules are listed for them in there and explain in detail about how you are able to assault out of them. Combine that with the ability to disembark out of non-assault vehicles up to 6 inches into cover to get a 4+ save, 5+ on the rare occasions you are unable to get a 4+ which is indeed rare, shoot and be in cover when assaulted make even non-assault transports effective. Another option is to use those non assault transports as mobile cover to walk and run behind safely across the field of battle in which case you have a mobile piece of terrain to provide cover (that is if you are so shortsighted as to want to ignore normal cover or the ability to intertwine units.
5. I am well aware of how fliers and barrage weapons work. You might want to look up the rules for the in the rule book to refresh your memory.Fliers still need to have a line of sight to a target so their targets are just as able to get cover from their shots as they are from land based shots. Additionally, if a flyer has chosen to fire at land based targets, any additional shots they take at other flyers will be snap shots. Barrage weapons do not ignore cover (except for a rarely used and overpriced guard variant). The shots are considered to have come from the center of the blast instead of the actual model firing it. This means that it is still possible to get cover saves from them. Additionally, if fired indirectly, it deviates the full distance rolled. So yes, even the newest players can make it into an assault and it is a rare player that is bad enough that cant. Again, seek help learning the game and how to play it.
6. 5 points per model is very cheap. Effectively next to zero when taken into account the underpricing of the hard hitting close combat units. When your heavy hitter close combat unit is underpriced by 5 points and it takes a 5 points per model to make the meat shield that guarantees they make it into battle, the meat shields are practically free.
7. I have provided proof and I have already given you several easy ways tyo get around them. If you do not wish to take advice from a veteran player, don't take it. That is your choice, but don't lie and deny the options given to you.
8. Think what you like. I do not have to prove that to you. I am providing more than enough evidence to support my stance. Needless to say, that the models have gotten better done since those days I remember but they have (I think) lost a lot of "character" since then. Particularly in the chaos marines and orks.. Would be nice to see them bring back biker squats and space slann though.
9. I have provided reasonable evidence and factual proof. We can do this little dance till the cows come home with me providing proof and you denying the proof through lame excuses to cover for poorplaying ability and a lack of grasp on tactics and strategy. Continue if you wish, I will continue to refute you.

I object! Joke aside, let's analyze for a moment.

Your first post talks about the speed of many armies and ability to plop down into the middle of an enemy.
First of all, that is something sternguard, a shooty army does, second of all, it requires a turn of doing nothing praying to the sweet and merciful emporer that he doesn't decide to make you scatter into something bad or off the table. It also means standing still for a turn likely in open terrain to be blasted off the face of the earth. Your second argument, that gunline armies are at a distinct disadvantage because of short ranges and the small size of the board. Now, to begin with there are several forms of deployment many of which favor the gunline. Second of all, whilst in reality 24" is a small range, considering this is the average for most standard infantry guns, let's think about that. Assuming that the enemy model moves 6" and then runs 4" (I rounded up rather than 3.5). That is about 10 inches per turn. This ignores high and low runs as well as having to move through cover. It also ignores the fact that there are many guns that have 30"-76" ranges that involve blasting the enemy off of their deployment zone. ALong with that, it assumes that the gunline armies move zero inches and all of their guns are 24" or less which is frankly nonsense.

Your next post goes on to state how you have played since Rogue Trader. You say that shooting has become stronger yet you say it is still weaker. This contradicts most individual's arguments that CC was best in 3rd and gradually has been increasingly nerfed whilst shooting has risen to the point where you can't last am onth without some post complaining about assault being inferior. Then you go on to say how the bug or ork players will always cry claiming shooting is too strong. If this argument is valid "evidence", then I counterject with the fact that shooting armies such as Tau will argue that CC is too strong even when it is the inferior of the two. THen you start talking about nerfing the cc to the ground by denying any capability for the enemy to have any protection from shooting to claim it might make shooting just a bit overpowered.

In your next post, you speak of 40k being a hero game. 2nd edition was hero hammer. 3rd edition was the edition of cc. 5th edition was the edition of vehicles (shooting) and 6th is FMC, flying planes, skimmers, and gunlines. You claim CC is where the game is won or lost yet never any real evidence. You go on to say that fleet of foot and transports still get cc armies into combat on turn 2. Well then, let's analyze that. Chaos Daemons do. I won't disagree with that. But SM? The rhino is av12 and then 11. Most armies spam mid strength guns (plasma guns S7) and lootas (better range). These can easily break a vehicle and so rhinos have been considered first blood donors to the enemy. Also, unless the enemy charges at you, runs towards you, and then positions themself outside of cover, it is almost impossible for an assault army to get a turn one charge. Then you argue that cover is better now. Except the counterpoint that cover also buffs shooting armies like IG, that cover still slows down assault armies, that the general cover went from 4+ -> 5+, and the fact that in earlier editions it was easier for hordes to give 4+ to entire units. You throw aside overwatch but the thing is, it is more of icing on the cake to kick in the teeth one last time. Your next argument is that there are ways to get around it with no real evidence.

Your next sources of evidence are claiming that multiwound heroes are what changes the game that are good in cc. This ignores the fact that the top two codices are shooting oriented codices, at the beginning of 6th edition, the shooty codex of Necrons was the best, and the most frightening broken units almost always are shooting oriented in this edition. You also state for every 1 unit with a gun that is cheese there are 2 to make up. What evidence backs this up? What is this 50 rending str 5 attacks coming from? You mention it but never describe its origins. Is it from a multi wound hero space marine? You talk about transports except shooting armies can also use them, the fact that rhinos are fragile, and that 4+ saves are less common nowadays. Also you don't get cover and an armor save and striking first if you are assaulted after deployment doesn't even make sense. Along with that, you claim there are a massive number of open toppes and assault vehicles even though there aren't. Orks have them (but they tend to be fragile), DE have them (but they are even more fragile), and that is about it. SM variants have land raiders but those are largely considered overpriced for their output and unless SM you can only load at most 10 dudes into them. Getting cover saves being easier also helps shooting armies. Throwaway units benefit both shooting and assault armies.

Now then, in your most recent post you bring some hard evidence. We might want to analyze them. Helldrake vector strike doesn't really count. It's more of a shooting attack that you have to fly over for it to work and its main selling point is its template flamer of doom. Genestealers aren't the most popular unit of tyranids. People prefer the dakkagaunts for the hoardy numberi n conjunction with a momma that births more of them. Tyranids win by tons of guns before rushing in to finish off their prey. Orks aren't at the top of meta in the slightest. They are doing okay but they are held up by lootas and the sorts not ork boys. The Riptide can fight in cc but it's his merits at shooting and being so bloody tanky that makes him great. Take his guns and he means nothing and you will find few that will send him into cc unless there is like 1 tau or one guardsman left.

Also, actually ork trucks, battlewagons, storm ravens, and land raiders aren't seen that commonly. You are more likely to see wraithserpents (eldar), tau, Heldrakes, and vendetta spam armies. Fliers can go over cover making it a bit more difficult to find cover and barrage can snipe vital targets in a way chaos can't as easily do. ANd being able to indirecetly fire still means you can fire even when you can't see them making cover not as usueful. 5 points is cheap until you realize it totals into about 200 points which is still a decent chunk out of your 1500 or so point army especially since you have to hope they still reach the enemy to be of any use.

To be earnest, you haven't provided proof. And for it all, you seem to ignore that the best two codices specialize in shooting one of which has almost no close combat capabilities in the slightest. For such a glaring weakness, why is it that the army that is the worst in cc happens to be the all around best codex?

And most importantly.... Hello EVIL INC! Although I might firmly disagree with you, I wish that you enjoy your time at Dakkadakka and hope you have fun here.

EDIT: And don't forget you have to remove models from the front as well as the fact that charge ranges are from 2" to 12" however most assault players would rather wait until at least 8" before charging and usually try to be more along the lines of 5" before charging.

I will admit that shooting is finally starting to come into it's own and become a valid and effective part of the game. However, all evidence shows that it is not overpowerfull. it is still possible to get to grips with a close combat army, you just need to learn to be smarter in how to do it. As a matter of fact, When I get the time, I will type up a thread starter for just what we are talking about to put into the tactics section. We can agree or not here or even agree to disagree. Spending page after page discussing the exact tactics of how to do what we are talking about is more appropriate there than here. For every strength in the game, there is an exploitable weakness.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Echoing some other threads in this post, a game from way back in 1990 stands out to me.

Playing at the Games Workshop in College Park, Maryland, facing a Genestealer cult army. At the start of the game, my opponent told me I will get one round of shooting with my Ultramarines and that was it. His words proved to be true, the genestealers assaulted squads, ate them, and consolidated into assault with the next squad again and again. There wasn't enough room on the board to get away from them. Drove me to Chaos just to get a CL who could stand up to these things.

This game stops being fun when people are prevented from having full turns. Consolidating into assault is a mechanic that makes the game particularly unfun for players. I could totally see how this rule suited genestealers and made them seem a little more realistic, but also made them nearly impossible to beat. It's one of those things where the game can't be too real or it stops being run.

It's really your fault for bunching them up so that he could consolidate into combat with your next unit.
I don't know about back then, but with a D6" consolidate, unless you are really bunched up chances are you won't get assaulted by that.

So now you're split up, and the enemy has to make a decision as well, should I focus more of my melee units into this side or go after the other side of the table?
It adds tactical depth to both side, gunline armies have to be more considerate when deploying and melee based armies have to decide which side they need to throw units at.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

EVIL INC wrote:
I will admit that shooting is finally starting to come into it's own and become a valid and effective part of the game. However, all evidence shows that it is not overpowerfull. it is still possible to get to grips with a close combat army, you just need to learn to be smarter in how to do it. As a matter of fact, When I get the time, I will type up a thread starter for just what we are talking about to put into the tactics section. We can agree or not here or even agree to disagree. Spending page after page discussing the exact tactics of how to do what we are talking about is more appropriate there than here. For every strength in the game, there is an exploitable weakness.

What all evidence?
The biggest evidence is that shooty armies are winning tournaments and assault ones aren't.
Unless you're saying tournaments don't represent this game, then I don't know where you're pulling your facts from :/

Your not always given a choice in the matter. The "official" table size is 4'/6'. In stores, you will find that unles there is a tourney going on the average game table size is more like 2'/3' or 3'/5' which gives the huge advantage to the close combat army. many ork and bug players will even use smaller tables in home friendly games. Then, you look at the terrain set up that is designed for the game and you will see that it is simply impossible to spread your entire army out to the point of never ever allowing an assaulter to go from one unit to the next. The consolidating into combat was simply broken giving close combat the advantage to the point of comparing army lists "Oh, you have an ork army while mine is guard. rock paper scissors, you auto win". Taking it out added a new level of tactics to the game that was just not there before while actually making it more balanced.

EVIL INC wrote:
Your not always given a choice in the matter. The "official" table size is 4'/6'. In stores, you will find that unles there is a tourney going on the average game table size is more like 2'/3' or 3'/5' which gives the huge advantage to the close combat army. many ork and bug players will even use smaller tables in home friendly games. Then, you look at the terrain set up that is designed for the game and you will see that it is simply impossible to spread your entire army out to the point of never ever allowing an assaulter to go from one unit to the next. The consolidating into combat was simply broken giving close combat the advantage to the point of comparing army lists "Oh, you have an ork army while mine is guard. rock paper scissors, you auto win". Taking it out added a new level of tactics to the game that was just not there before while actually making it more balanced.

Uh... if we're talking about unofficial table sizes then it's a different story.

Why don't we play on a 1' by 1' table and call assault cheesy???????

Shrinking the table is pretty much changing the game mechanics.............

2. Hero game won by the multi wound heros wielding power fists and melta bombs. Getting them into combat with the enemies hero is one of the biggest aspects of the game.

Yesterday I played tau vs nids. I set up a gun line of 36 firewarriors, within 6 of each other, with an ethereal at the centre. Thats 108 str 5 shots within half range, how do you think that game went for his horde of gaunts?
Even if he did manage to charge, because of tau overwatch rules thats another 108 snapfire shots on overwatch. This averages out to be 18 hits on overwatch.
Because of situations like this, melee is not what it once was.

Still, melee is not entirely dead, and some armies or specific units can do it rather well. However I feel you are overstating both its importance and how common place it is in 6th edition.
Maybe amongst your gaming group people do not shift to the meta or power game. But in places where they do, armies like DA devestation-standard bikes, Tau gunlines or move-shoot-run Eldar (not even mentioning Wave Sperpents) should make melee obsolete in most situations.

Back on topic: Whilst in previous editions sweeping into additional units after a charge might have been over powered, I feel the addition of random charge distances and overwatch in 6th ed. would be enough to warrant and also balance its appearance again.
Going back to my given example, even if the Nids managed to get into cc and wipe a squad of firewarriors, the next turn they would be cooked by the remaining two squads. This hardly seems fair for all the effort and luck it took for them to get there.

There should be some kind of buff to melee in 6th imo, and also more methods to deal with castling gunlines. True sweeping advances would do both, and if they maintain overwatch shots and random charge distances, then I would not believe it to be overpowered as in previous editions.

EVIL INC wrote:
1. I have provided credible evidence along with actual proof. Your using lack of playing ability as an excuse to ignore it does not negate that it is a simple fact. Again, Learn tactics and strategy to help you overcome this lack of playing ability. I am sure that there are plenty here who would be willing to coach you.
2. Yes, I have seen the rules for this edition. It is factually correct. Your stating otherwise does not alter the black and white words written into the rulebook.
3. Helldrakes vector strike, close combat, genestealers and variants, orks, the list goes on and on. Even the riptide which is considered a shooty unit is extremely effective in close combat.
4. Believe it or not, you ARE allowed to assault out ork trucks and battlewagons and storm ravens along with such items as the 3 land raider varients. All of which you see quite often (usually in multiples). Look into the rulebook under open topped and assault vehicles. The rules are listed for them in there and explain in detail about how you are able to assault out of them. Combine that with the ability to disembark out of non-assault vehicles up to 6 inches into cover to get a 4+ save, 5+ on the rare occasions you are unable to get a 4+ which is indeed rare, shoot and be in cover when assaulted make even non-assault transports effective. Another option is to use those non assault transports as mobile cover to walk and run behind safely across the field of battle in which case you have a mobile piece of terrain to provide cover (that is if you are so shortsighted as to want to ignore normal cover or the ability to intertwine units.
5. I am well aware of how fliers and barrage weapons work. You might want to look up the rules for the in the rule book to refresh your memory.Fliers still need to have a line of sight to a target so their targets are just as able to get cover from their shots as they are from land based shots. Additionally, if a flyer has chosen to fire at land based targets, any additional shots they take at other flyers will be snap shots. Barrage weapons do not ignore cover (except for a rarely used and overpriced guard variant). The shots are considered to have come from the center of the blast instead of the actual model firing it. This means that it is still possible to get cover saves from them. Additionally, if fired indirectly, it deviates the full distance rolled. So yes, even the newest players can make it into an assault and it is a rare player that is bad enough that cant. Again, seek help learning the game and how to play it.
6. 5 points per model is very cheap. Effectively next to zero when taken into account the underpricing of the hard hitting close combat units. When your heavy hitter close combat unit is underpriced by 5 points and it takes a 5 points per model to make the meat shield that guarantees they make it into battle, the meat shields are practically free.
7. I have provided proof and I have already given you several easy ways tyo get around them. If you do not wish to take advice from a veteran player, don't take it. That is your choice, but don't lie and deny the options given to you.
8. Think what you like. I do not have to prove that to you. I am providing more than enough evidence to support my stance. Needless to say, that the models have gotten better done since those days I remember but they have (I think) lost a lot of "character" since then. Particularly in the chaos marines and orks.. Would be nice to see them bring back biker squats and space slann though.
9. I have provided reasonable evidence and factual proof. We can do this little dance till the cows come home with me providing proof and you denying the proof through lame excuses to cover for poorplaying ability and a lack of grasp on tactics and strategy. Continue if you wish, I will continue to refute you.

1) Credible evidence and proof? Thus far, your evidence has been no more than "you're incompetent" and "Melee is op!". You have not given a single game mechanic or in-game example to support your opinion. Your entire argument sounds extremely similar to a guy in a previous thread who was getting all butthurt about TH/SS terminators, calling them OP, and claiming that all armies spam them. I get the feeling that you play something like Tau, but keep failing to defeat anyone, despite the awesome guns in your force, and thus call melee OP.

2) The black and white words for the rulebook allow them to choose who to hit on any to-hit roll of a six, and to fight another character in single combat. The melee precision hit is hardly much, but the shooting one can see forces like the Orks be utterly unable to fight (take out the PK nob).

3) Vector strike is a shooting attack that occurs in the movement phase. It counts as firing one weapon. Orks are fairly underpowered. They rarely make competitive armies besides mass flakka-dakka with mekboys.

4) Most armies have no open topped vehicles, and the ones that do find them gone by turn 1 or 2, as they have terribad armour. And land raiders are never seen en masse, due to their overpricing.

5) You forget that fliers can see over objects and other units. Barrage weapons allow you to wound enemies from the centre of the blast, thus circumventing cover oftentimes. And it is rare to see any player even bother to assault. Even the Ork players prefer shoota boyz over sluggas.

6) Melee units such as terminators are far to costly to even bother with, and the ones that aren't so costly evaporate under fire.

7) Read your own posts. Your only method so far is: walk forwards, hit them with any melee unit. Insta-win!

8) Still not a single iota of evidence...

9) Refute all you like. I challenge you to make a tactica thread on the matter, to educate us "noobs". Please, enlighten us as to why your delusions are so powerful.

Bill, I would say that if your opponent had only a single small unit of gaunts to assault you with, than something was wrong. He should have hammered your gunline with shooting to whittle your ranks down a little bit beforehand. That small unit of gaunts should have been screening nasties so that after you were done overwatch (possibly removing a couple disposable gribblies, his heavy hitters waltz in scott free. With the new random assault distance and their ability to go further, they can do this from a full 12 inches away at times. rarely will you ever see a player roll under a six. Where was his monstrous creature fliers and his guy that pops up and makes all nearby units take wounds based on leadership tests?

Selym
1. If the shoe fits, wear it. Thus far you have provided no evidence at all beyond saying that shooting is op and melee is useless. I have provided game mechanics and in game examples to demonstrate my point. th/sh termies? I have not even mentioned marines in this. As a matter of fact, I have concentrated on bugs and orks. I have played several different armies ranging from chaos (my main one for decades), to marines of different flavors (toyed with orks and elder, pun intended) and now have a decent guard, grey knight and marine armies. Having played since rogue trader, I have had time to collect and use many different armies and go through the game using many different rulesets. I consider myself only an average gamer who would be much better if I stooped to mathhammer instead of using tactics and strategy.As far as being unable to win a game, I came in first at our last tourney and usually average about 3rd.
2. You only roll sixes? Perhaps someone should check your dice. Those loaded things must be mean on leadership rolls and psychic tests, or do you have a separate set for those that only roll low numbers? Even without their power claw nob, orks are devastating in combat. The huge number of dice they can roll even after having been whittled down by shooting along with being fearless (they will have more than 12 in the unit when they roll into you on turn 2 (turn one if they did not get the initiative).
3. Vecter strike is when a creature gets to assault another flyer in the movement phase. You can guarantee a chaos turkey will take out a flyer a turn with that. I will say, the orks are due for a new codex but using certain cheese lists, they can still be effective.
4. Orks have open topped vehicles and those battlewagons shielded by mechs almost always hit enemy lines. Dark elder also usually hit enemy lines as well with the wargear and jink combined. Space marine armies (there are many different ones and yes, they each count as a separate army( and you rarely see less than two land raiders as they are usually used in pairs. You cant just say "space marines and have it encompass them all as they are each separate. Grey knights (I find these especially good) all have assault vehicles that pop their units down in your face.
5. Yes, flyers can see over some objects such as infantry and some vehicles. You still need to draw a line of sight. This means that you can have parts of units take cover behind even a lowly rhino and buildings are still effective LOS blockers. That is unless they use non-standard flying bases. Barrage weapons can fire over walls. Sometimes they might even hit I wouldn't hold my breath very often on that though. However, they do not ignore terrain. When your unit is in area terrain or better yet, the ground floor of a ruin, they still get their cover or in the case of the ruins or buildings simply laugh as the dust settles around the from the top floor because barrage weapons always hit the top floor.
6. I usually don't take termies myself. Too many eggs in one basket. I found that larger units of power armored marines are more survivable and still have a great armor save that more often than not allows them to shrug off overwatch shots.
7. I have read my own posts. Not a single one says walk forward/insta win. There are many ways to get to grips with the enemy (I will write a tutorial and post it soon). I used to run afoul of some of them and have learned to compensate but as it is impossible to avoid melee, I still get hit at times. I learned from these different people and their different tactics over the years and employ their tactics myself when I want to reach combat.
8. re-read the posts. I am the only one who has provided evidence. You could start putting some forward to support your own.
9.I will indeed post a tactica thread on it. There you may post your delusions of why shooting is the only aspect of the game and why they have totally removed close combat from it altogether and why it is impossible to ever EVER reach close combat in any circumstances along with why it is impossible for a close combat oriented model to ever EVER win close combat against a lowly guardsman with a gun and bayonet.

I'm pretty sure no one here thinks that you have provided solid evidence besides putting down a statement that "melee is OP".

I like how you actually say that you have provided evidence while you in reality haven't.

Most of your examples are so wrong that it's not even worth counter arguing...
Like Vector strike is when a creature gets to assault another flyer?
WHAT? Vector strike is treated as a shooting attack for all purposes by the rules.

And NO ONE EVER has said that melee is utterly useless, everybody has just agreed to
Shooting > Melee

And stop insulting people with accusations such as "delusions", "maybe you should check your dice", these words just make you sound like you lack all support for your statements.

So, stop trolling and learn how to discuss something properly without insulting anybody.

This is a quote from Selym "Please, enlighten us as to why your delusions are so powerful". I am the one being insulted. I used the term "delusion" to point out to him how it felt to have someone use it towards him. Your apology is accepted and assumed.
Indeed, you like how I say I have provided evidence. If you read the posts, you will like how it is actually there even more.
Vector strike is counted as shooting in the rules in that the target gets to make a jink save. There is no other cover because the models are actually touching one another at that point in time and the "shooting" attack is the game representation of the models clawing and biting at the other flyer as it goes by. In my mind, when you are clawing and biting at someone, it is a close combat attack jink save or not.
You guys keep on and on about how useless close combat it and how OP shooting is.
So feel free to stop trolling and learn to discuss a topic without insulting others. This is a public forum and you we all need to "live together". Learn that not everyone has had the same experiences that you have and that you are not the end all be all font of godly information. You can ALWAYS learn something new or get new perspectives. I learn new things all the time because my mind is open to them. We may not agree on this and that is fine by me because I understand that we are not mindless robots to be programmed. However, I will continue to support my position in a reasonable and respectful manner so we can do this dance (and I am willing to) forever for hundreds upon hundreds of pages or until the thread is locked. The choice is yours. Accept that I see the topic differently, or keep trolling.

EVIL INC wrote:
This is a quote from Selym "Please, enlighten us as to why your delusions are so powerful". I am the one being insulted. I used the term "delusion" to point out to him how it felt to have someone use it towards him. Your apology is accepted and assumed.
Indeed, you like how I say I have provided evidence. If you read the posts, you will like how it is actually there even more.
Vector strike is counted as shooting in the rules in that the target gets to make a jink save. There is no other cover because the models are actually touching one another at that point in time and the "shooting" attack is the game representation of the models clawing and biting at the other flyer as it goes by. In my mind, when you are clawing and biting at someone, it is a close combat attack jink save or not.
You guys keep on and on about how useless close combat it and how OP shooting is.
So feel free to stop trolling and learn to discuss a topic without insulting others. This is a public forum and you we all need to "live together". Learn that not everyone has had the same experiences that you have and that you are not the end all be all font of godly information. You can ALWAYS learn something new or get new perspectives. I learn new things all the time because my mind is open to them. We may not agree on this and that is fine by me because I understand that we are not mindless robots to be programmed. However, I will continue to support my position in a reasonable and respectful manner so we can do this dance (and I am willing to) forever for hundreds upon hundreds of pages or until the thread is locked. The choice is yours. Accept that I see the topic differently, or keep trolling.

Uh, that's him? so if people do something wrong you think it's ok to continue doing it?
I'm sorry but I'm not apologizing as it isn't I who said that.

Uh, the target isn't allowed to make a jink save for vector strike? Please check your rules first.
Also, it isn't CC because the other units can strike you back when you vector strike and that is what CC actually is.

At least I didn't say melee was useless, and I haven't really seen anybody say melee is useless.
Implying it is weak compared to shooting doesn't equate to being useless.

Again, no one says that melee is useless, and I always run lists with melee units, but these melee units are limited due to the nature of the rules.
- Khorne Beserkers per say, there's no way to get them into CC without getting getting blasted to bits, with a LR that boosts their units to 400-500 pts.
That's very expensive compared to say a Riptide or 3 Broadsides which can dish out the same amount of damage at ranged.

The main way nowadays to get around from being blasted off the table is high toughness units, fast units, or a combination of both.
I don't think I've ever seen any assault units outside of those criteria in tournament lists.
This is mainly due to the strength of shooting > assault.

Also, how can you then explain that most tournament lists are all Tau and Eldar then?
The lists they have all focus on heavy shooting if not mobility and shooting.
It's pretty obvious now that assault just is not as competitive as shooting unless with units that are heavily geared towards it.

The tau have the special support fire rule that is unique to them. I do feel that that is a little over the top. Of course, with the riptide and a few other things, they are coming into a little more close combat abilities as well. My main beef with them is the support fire and targeting lasers. Personally, I feel that you should be able to get a cover save from those because just as with a gun,ou need to hit the target to get the lil red light on them. However, because the tau have a few exploitable rules is not a reason to totally discount close combat. I got ate up by support fire exactly one time. After that, I learned to angle my approach to them where the extra units were not able to get a direct LOS towards my assaulting unit(s) or where if they did, I would get a cover save. Again, this is where transports come into play by parking them between your assaulting unit and those support fire squads to deny them their shots.

Eldar are actually very effective in close combat. Their abundance of power and force weapons, high initiative and speed allow them to hit hard.

When I speak of strategy, Part of that is in your build. shooting and close combat combined make up the game. Despite your claims otherwise, close combat still plays a vital role. A role that usually decides who wins or loses the game. As a matter of fact, my last game in the tourney I won last weekend was down to close combat with a guardsman and a dire avenger. Last turn of the game, he killed my guardsman and was denied the objective because I had parked a transport in such a way that he was unable to get within 3 inches of the objective we were fighting over with his follow up move. had I not used my transport in that way, he could have tied the game.

All told, it is a science fiction space game where guns are SUPPOSED to play a vital role. Removing them from the game would be like removing swords from warhammer fantasy battle.

Dear lord, this is going to be a long post.

Warning: Absurdly long post to follow. Tl;Dr: Shooting is more powerful than melee, I have given evidence to prove it, EVIL INC has not evidenced his assertion that the opposite is true.

EVIL INC wrote:
1) 1. If the shoe fits, wear it. Thus far you have provided no evidence at all beyond saying that shooting is op and melee is useless. I have provided game mechanics and in game examples to demonstrate my point. th/sh termies? I have not even mentioned marines in this. As a matter of fact, I have concentrated on bugs and orks. I have played several different armies ranging from chaos (my main one for decades), to marines of different flavors (toyed with orks and elder, pun intended) and now have a decent guard, grey knight and marine armies. Having played since rogue trader, I have had time to collect and use many different armies and go through the game using many different rulesets. I consider myself only an average gamer who would be much better if I stooped to mathhammer instead of using tactics and strategy.As far as being unable to win a game, I came in first at our last tourney and usually average about 3rd.

2) 2. You only roll sixes? Perhaps someone should check your dice. Those loaded things must be mean on leadership rolls and psychic tests, or do you have a separate set for those that only roll low numbers? Even without their power claw nob, orks are devastating in combat. The huge number of dice they can roll even after having been whittled down by shooting along with being fearless (they will have more than 12 in the unit when they roll into you on turn 2 (turn one if they did not get the initiative).

3) 3. Vecter strike is when a creature gets to assault another flyer in the movement phase. You can guarantee a chaos turkey will take out a flyer a turn with that. I will say, the orks are due for a new codex but using certain cheese lists, they can still be effective.

4) 4. Orks have open topped vehicles and those battlewagons shielded by mechs almost always hit enemy lines. Dark elder also usually hit enemy lines as well with the wargear and jink combined. Space marine armies (there are many different ones and yes, they each count as a separate army( and you rarely see less than two land raiders as they are usually used in pairs. You cant just say "space marines and have it encompass them all as they are each separate. Grey knights (I find these especially good) all have assault vehicles that pop their units down in your face.

5) 5. Yes, flyers can see over some objects such as infantry and some vehicles. You still need to draw a line of sight. This means that you can have parts of units take cover behind even a lowly rhino and buildings are still effective LOS blockers. That is unless they use non-standard flying bases. Barrage weapons can fire over walls. Sometimes they might even hit I wouldn't hold my breath very often on that though. However, they do not ignore terrain. When your unit is in area terrain or better yet, the ground floor of a ruin, they still get their cover or in the case of the ruins or buildings simply laugh as the dust settles around the from the top floor because barrage weapons always hit the top floor.

6) 6. I usually don't take termies myself. Too many eggs in one basket. I found that larger units of power armored marines are more survivable and still have a great armor save that more often than not allows them to shrug off overwatch shots.

7) 7. I have read my own posts. Not a single one says walk forward/insta win. There are many ways to get to grips with the enemy (I will write a tutorial and post it soon). I used to run afoul of some of them and have learned to compensate but as it is impossible to avoid melee, I still get hit at times. I learned from these different people and their different tactics over the years and employ their tactics myself when I want to reach combat.

8) 8. re-read the posts. I am the only one who has provided evidence. You could start putting some forward to support your own.

9) 9.I will indeed post a tactica thread on it. There you may post your delusions of why shooting is the only aspect of the game and why they have totally removed close combat from it altogether and why it is impossible to ever EVER reach close combat in any circumstances along with why it is impossible for a close combat oriented model to ever EVER win close combat against a lowly guardsman with a gun and bayonet.

1) Evidence I have provided in this thread, in chronological order:

 Selym wrote:

In 5th you could make a reasonable effort with assault, but it was not much better than shooting, now in 6th, even Tyranids have to focus on shooting.
Melee is almost entirely out of the question in this ed, everyone is slapping down gunlines, using fliers, and generally invalidating anything less than TH/SS termies.

 Selym wrote:

2) Define [*snip*] "characters". The battle in 6th tends to be decided by the big guns, not the pen knife Pvt. Larry has in his backpack. I have seen (and been on both ends of) games where one side gets shot off the table before getting within 6" of an enemy model.

 Selym wrote:

3) No. Shooting is not op. Excessive cheese units, however, are. It just so happens that those cheese unit in this edition happen to have guns, and don't take to melee particularly well.

 Selym wrote:

4) I have minimal experience of fleet, but transports are something I know about. The average Methul Bawks will not allow you to assault on the turn you disembark. Considering that you'll be spending one turn moving, and then another moving/disembarking, at best a transported unit will assault on turn 3. Assuming they/their transport was not shot to death.
If something like a LR is taken, a turn 2 transport assault is possible. However, it costs 220-250 points base, and does sod all for most of the game.
If open-topped transports are taken, they tend to be on the rather flimsy side, offering about as much protection as the proverbial cardboard box (I'm looking at you,Battlewagon).
Loosing to a shooty army may be partially down to personal faults. Such as the choice to take a knife to a gunfight.

 Selym wrote:

5) Huh, and here I was thinking that open spaces are safer than those terrain pieces. Silly me. /sarcasm.
In a world where heldrakes ignore your saves, shooty units flank you (via either deployment or maneuverability), it's quite a bit harder to get cover than in the last ed. As for transports, I covered that in (4).

 Selym wrote:

6) Overwatch isn't the problem. It just exacerbates the mechanics already in place. And Tau like to abuse it.

 Selym wrote:

3) Name some. Cheese this ed: Heldrakes (cannot assault), Riptide (is immeasurably better shooting than assaulting), Vendettas (cannot assault). And so on.

 Selym wrote:

5) You seem to forget how fliers and barrage weapons work. And the fact that meatshields can be circumvented. And that there are numerous weapons around that ignore cover. It takes an uncommonly skilled player to succeed in assault, unless they're playing daemons. In which case, they may have a fair chance.

 Selym wrote:

9) [*snip*] And as for "simply rushing across", I don't do that. I tried advancing through cover and using transports, it never worked out. So I've moved onto being shooty. And it has proved far more effective.

 Selym wrote:

2) The black and white words for the rulebook allow them to choose who to hit on any to-hit roll of a six, and to fight another character in single combat. The melee precision hit is hardly much, but the shooting one can see forces like the Orks be utterly unable to fight (take out the PK nob).

 Selym wrote:

3) Vector strike is a shooting attack that occurs in the movement phase. It counts as firing one weapon. Orks are fairly underpowered. They rarely make competitive armies besides mass flakka-dakka with mekboys.

 Selym wrote:

4) Most armies have no open topped vehicles, and the ones that do find them gone by turn 1 or 2, as they have terribad armour. And land raiders are never seen en masse, due to their overpricing.

 Selym wrote:

5) You forget that fliers can see over objects and other units. Barrage weapons allow you to wound enemies from the centre of the blast, thus circumventing cover oftentimes. And it is rare to see any player even bother to assault. Even the Ork players prefer shoota boyz over sluggas.

 Selym wrote:

6) Melee units such as terminators are far to costly to even bother with, and the ones that aren't so costly evaporate under fire.

In addition to this, there are the other posters on this thread who oppose your point of view.

Evidence you have provided:

EVIL INC wrote:
Warhammer 40k is still a "hero" game where the battle is won or lost in close combat.

EVIL INC wrote:
the fault lies in yourself.

EVIL INC wrote:
The irrefutable fact remains, the game is geared towards close combat and the close combat armies have always had the advantage. This remains so now. The gap is narrowing but it is still there.

EVIL INC wrote:
If you are unable to make your way past a lasgun, try posting a thread for help in the tactics and strategy section and asking others with more experience to help you out and assist you in learning to wargame. Spamming here that shooting is too powerful and putting up bogus reasons will never help you. Become a better player and simply learn to overcome your weaknesses.

And most spectacularly (regarding the removal of consolidating into assault):

EVIL INC wrote:
Taking that out of the game did not give gunline armies any advantage at all. As a matter of fact the game is still close combat game oriented. It merely balanced it out a little bit to help add in more tactics and strategy

2)I never said I only roll sixes, just that they had the potential to be powerful.

3)Pg 43, BRB, "Vector Strike": "At the end of the movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy flyer. That unit takes [calculation] hits, resolved at [calculation]. Against vehicles, these hist are resolved against the target's side armour. A model that made a Vector Strike counts as having already fired one weapon in its following shooting phase."
Nothing to do with assault. It's an effect that occurs during the movement phse, counting as having shot a weapon.

4)Correction: You'll rarely see any LR's at all. Ever.

5) #Heldrakes. That rhino will only cover one flank of a unit, we're living in a 3-dimensional world, not a 2-d platformer. Yes, barrage weapons can scatter 3d6", and only hit the top of buildings. But not everyone will have overhead cover, and there is a 1/3 chance of not scattering at all. And it won't always scatter the full 18".

6) Who are also far more capable when used as a gunline...

7) If you are finding it impossible to avoid melee, it is you who needs some learning. Lesson 1: Point the barrel of the gun at the enemy. Lesson 2: Fire.

8) Just done so, point 1 of this post. And no, you are still not providing evidence.

9) I have never mentioned that shooting is the only aspect of the game. None of us have. You, however, are asserting that it is the inferior aspect.
Btw:

EVIL INC wrote:There you may post your delusions of why shooting is the only aspect of the game and why they have totally removed close combat from it altogether and why it is impossible to ever EVER reach close combat in any circumstances along with why it is impossible for a close combat oriented model to ever EVER win close combat against a lowly guardsman with a gun and bayonet.

Wat. Use some commas, please. And what do you mean "it is impossible for a close combat oriented model to ever EVER win close combat against a lowly guardsman with a gun and bayonet"?

____________________________________
{Part 2}
____________________________________

EVIL INC wrote:
10)This is a quote from Selym "Please, enlighten us as to why your delusions are so powerful". I am the one being insulted. I used the term "delusion" to point out to him how it felt to have someone use it towards him. Your apology is accepted and assumed.

11)Indeed, you like how I say I have provided evidence. If you read the posts, you will like how it is actually there even more.

12)Vector strike is counted as shooting in the rules in that the target gets to make a jink save. There is no other cover because the models are actually touching one another at that point in time and the "shooting" attack is the game representation of the models clawing and biting at the other flyer as it goes by. In my mind, when you are clawing and biting at someone, it is a close combat attack jink save or not.

13)You guys keep on and on about how useless close combat it and how OP shooting is.

14)So feel free to stop trolling and learn to discuss a topic without insulting others. This is a public forum and you we all need to "live together". Learn that not everyone has had the same experiences that you have and that you are not the end all be all font of godly information. You can ALWAYS learn something new or get new perspectives. I learn new things all the time because my mind is open to them. We may not agree on this and that is fine by me because I understand that we are not mindless robots to be programmed.However, I will continue to support my position in a reasonable and respectful manner so we can do this dance (and I am willing to) forever for hundreds upon hundreds of pages or until the thread is locked. The choice is yours. Accept that I see the topic differently, or keep trolling.

10) Don't be pompous, it doesn't suit you.

11)Point (1).

12) Refer to point (3).

13) None of us have called melee useless, or shooting OP. In fact, I stated earlier:

 Selym wrote:

3) No. Shooting is not op.

14)

EVIL INC wrote:
the fault lies in yourself.

EVIL INC wrote:
delusions

I'm going to take a break now, my keyboard is tired.

Evidence provided by myself that support my point of view.

EVIL INC wrote:

1. Make use of cover-currently, more cover saves are allowed than ever before. You don't even need to actually be in cover, the silly tactic of staggering and mixing units alone gives you saves in the wide open spaces. Use buildings, vehicles and other units as cover and your killy killy units make t to combat unscathed. Use transports effectively.
2. Overwatch- by itself allows you to kill a model or two at the most since you need natural sixes to hit never mind those that actually wound still need to wound and allow armor saves. There is also the fact that they can only fire at the first unit making the charge attempt. You charge first with your cheapy throwaway unit and follow up with your heavy hitters.

EVIL INC wrote:

3. Yes, cheese units are overpowered. For every cheese unit with a gun, you will see 2 that are geared towards close combat
"

EVIL INC wrote:

4. Learn to use your transports. You may have your games confused "Methul Bawks" are not items used in 40k.The ability to hop out of a transport in the enemy deployment zone into cover where you get a 4+ save in addition to your armor save and striking first if you are assaulted after deployment is a great thing. Then shooting and assaulting on your following turn is even more great. Add in the large numbers of open toped or assault vehicles where you can just assault right out of them and you top off the cake.
5. Getting cover saves is actually easier now than ever before. You don't even have to be in cover, just have another unit intermixed and you get it in the wide open. So yes, if you are unable to get one, it is due to your own lack of playing skill.
6. Throwaway units are just that. cheap units that you spend next to zero points for to guarantee your heavy hitters take out who you want them to. Again, check your own playing skill if you are unable to effectively use them. Tau overwatch can be killer. Fortunately, after you get into close combat, they are dead (even if lowly guardsmen assault them.
"

EVIL INC wrote:

4. Believe it or not, you ARE allowed to assault out ork trucks and battlewagons and storm ravens along with such items as the 3 land raider varients. All of which you see quite often (usually in multiples). Look into the rulebook under open topped and assault vehicles. The rules are listed for them in there and explain in detail about how you are able to assault out of them. Combine that with the ability to disembark out of non-assault vehicles up to 6 inches into cover to get a 4+ save, 5+ on the rare occasions you are unable to get a 4+ which is indeed rare, shoot and be in cover when assaulted make even non-assault transports effective. Another option is to use those non assault transports as mobile cover to walk and run behind safely across the field of battle in which case you have a mobile piece of terrain to provide cover (that is if you are so shortsighted as to want to ignore normal cover or the ability to intertwine units.
5. I am well aware of how fliers and barrage weapons work. You might want to look up the rules for the in the rule book to refresh your memory.Fliers still need to have a line of sight to a target so their targets are just as able to get cover from their shots as they are from land based shots. Additionally, if a flyer has chosen to fire at land based targets, any additional shots they take at other flyers will be snap shots. Barrage weapons do not ignore cover (except for a rarely used and overpriced guard variant). The shots are considered to have come from the center of the blast instead of the actual model firing it. This means that it is still possible to get cover saves from them. Additionally, if fired indirectly, it deviates the full distance rolled. So yes, even the newest players can make it into an assault and it is a rare player that is bad enough that cant. Again, seek help learning the game and how to play it.
6. 5 points per model is very cheap. Effectively next to zero when taken into account the underpricing of the hard hitting close combat units. When your heavy hitter close combat unit is underpriced by 5 points and it takes a 5 points per model to make the meat shield that guarantees they make it into battle, the meat shields are practically free.

EVIL INC wrote:

2. You only roll sixes? Perhaps someone should check your dice. Those loaded things must be mean on leadership rolls and psychic tests, or do you have a separate set for those that only roll low numbers? Even without their power claw nob, orks are devastating in combat. The huge number of dice they can roll even after having been whittled down by shooting along with being fearless (they will have more than 12 in the unit when they roll into you on turn 2 (turn one if they did not get the initiative).
4. Orks have open topped vehicles and those battlewagons shielded by mechs almost always hit enemy lines. Dark elder also usually hit enemy lines as well with the wargear and jink combined. Space marine armies (there are many different ones and yes, they each count as a separate army( and you rarely see less than two land raiders as they are usually used in pairs. You cant just say "space marines and have it encompass them all as they are each separate. Grey knights (I find these especially good) all have assault vehicles that pop their units down in your face.
5. Yes, flyers can see over some objects such as infantry and some vehicles. You still need to draw a line of sight. This means that you can have parts of units take cover behind even a lowly rhino and buildings are still effective LOS blockers. That is unless they use non-standard flying bases. Barrage weapons can fire over walls. Sometimes they might even hit I wouldn't hold my breath very often on that though. However, they do not ignore terrain. When your unit is in area terrain or better yet, the ground floor of a ruin, they still get their cover or in the case of the ruins or buildings simply laugh as the dust settles around the from the top floor because barrage weapons always hit the top floor.

Of course you arte entitled to your opinion and I respect that. facts and evidence however do not support your position. I will continue to disagree with you I will continue to think that close combat is still an effective part of the game, I will continue to believe that it is not a waste. I will continue to not think that just because an army has more guns, it will auto win. I will continue to believe that strategy and tactics can win a game. I will continue to believe that I have a right to express my opinion and disagree with you. We can play this game forever with me stating my opinions and you trolling. We have filled up two pages and I am willing to fill up as many as the server can handle before crashing in order to exercise my right to my opinion and support it with facts. So feel free to keep trolling or feel free to respect the fact that I have a right to my own point of view and to support it.

Because I'm getting sick of requoting every individual thing, I'll just put my comments in cyan inside the quote:

EVIL INC wrote:
Evidence provided by myself that support my point of view.

EVIL INC wrote:

1. Make use of cover-currently, more cover saves are allowed than ever before. You don't even need to actually be in cover, the silly tactic of staggering and mixing units alone gives you saves in the wide open spaces. Use buildings, vehicles and other units as cover and your killy killy units make t to combat unscathed. Use transports effectively.
Not evidence, you are simply assuming we have never tried this.

2. Overwatch- by itself allows you to kill a model or two at the most since you need natural sixes to hit never mind those that actually wound still need to wound and allow armor saves. There is also the fact that they can only fire at the first unit making the charge attempt. You charge first with your cheapy throwaway unit and follow up with your heavy hitters. It's still another mechanic that strengthens shooting, and weakens melee. It's not much of a game changer, but the little things stack up. Also, we're already well aware of "send in the fodder first".

EVIL INC wrote:

3. Yes, cheese units are overpowered. For every cheese unit with a gun, you will see 2 that are geared towards close combat.
Incorrect on a fundamental level. That level being the actual units in the game. You have yet to name ONE cheesy melee unit. I, however, have named several cheesy shooty units.

EVIL INC wrote:

4. Learn to use your transports. You may have your games confused "Methul Bawks" are not items used in 40k.The ability to hop out of a transport in the enemy deployment zone into cover where you get a 4+ save in addition to your armor save and striking first if you are assaulted after deployment is a great thing. Then shooting and assaulting on your following turn is even more great. Add in the large numbers of open toped or assault vehicles where you can just assault right out of them and you top off the cake. Standard saves are 5+, not 4+. Additionally, you are far from guaranteed getting into cover this way. Especially if the cover in place is an ADL, which would only help the gunline.

5. Getting cover saves is actually easier now than ever before. You don't even have to be in cover, just have another unit intermixed and you get it in the wide open. So yes, if you are unable to get one, it is due to your own lack of playing skill.
I have already commented on this. It is incorrect.

6. Throwaway units are just that. cheap units that you spend next to zero points for to guarantee your heavy hitters take out who you want them to. Again, check your own playing skill if you are unable to effectively use them. Tau overwatch can be killer. Fortunately, after you get into close combat, they are dead (even if lowly guardsmen assault them. You tell us that it is our playing skill that prevents us from winning with assault, yet tournament level players from yesteryear are failing miserably when attempting to assault in competitive games. And the more you spend on fodder, the less offensively capable you become.

EVIL INC wrote:

4. Believe it or not, you ARE allowed to assault out ork trucks and battlewagons and storm ravens along with such items as the 3 land raider varients. I never said you couldn't.
All of which you see quite often (usually in multiples). Nopesicles. Look into the rulebook under open topped and assault vehicles. I have. The rules are listed for them in there and explain in detail about how you are able to assault out of them. Yes. Either with great difficulty or not at all on the TT. Combine that with the ability to disembark out of non-assault vehicles up to 6 inches into cover to get a 4+ save, 5+ on the rare occasions you are unable to get a 4+ which is indeed rare The std. save is 5+ in this Ed. 4+ is uncommon, unless you took fortifications for your gunline., shoot and be in cover when assaulted make even non-assault transports effective. Again, nope.
Another option is to use those non assault transports as mobile cover to walk and run behind safely across the field of battle in which case you have a mobile piece of terrain to provide cover (that is if you are so shortsighted as to want to ignore normal cover or the ability to intertwine units. You seem to think that we've never tried any of this. We have. It is ineffective.

5. I am well aware of how fliers and barrage weapons work. And yet somehow still sorely underestimate them. You might want to look up the rules for the in the rule book to refresh your memory. Just commented on that in my last post. Fliers still need to have a line of sight to a target so their targets are just as able to get cover from their shots as they are from land based shots. Hell to the no. Additionally, if a flyer has chosen to fire at land based targets, any additional shots they take at other flyers will be snap shots. And we care, because? Barrage weapons do not ignore cover (except for a rarely used and overpriced guard variant). They circumvent cover by blasting from behind it. The shots are considered to have come from the center of the blast instead of the actual model firing it. Exactly. Thus circumventing cover. This means that it is still possible to get cover saves from them. Never denied it, just mentioned it as an obstacle to getting saves. Additionally, if fired indirectly, it deviates the full distance rolled. Which can be as little as 3" on the 2/3 chance that scatter happens. So yes, even the newest players can make it into an assault and it is a rare player that is bad enough that cant. I refer you to the tourney level. Even they cannot make assault be more effective than shooting. Again, seek help learning the game and how to play it. How about you actually play a game of 6th Ed 40k?
6. 5 points per model is very cheap. Effectively next to zero when taken into account the underpricing of the hard hitting close combat units. When your heavy hitter close combat unit is underpriced by 5 points and it takes a 5 points per model to make the meat shield that guarantees (there are no guarantees in 40k) they make it into battle, the meat shields are practically free. Melee units tend to be overpriced in this ed.

EVIL INC wrote:

2. You only roll sixes? Never said I did. Perhaps someone should check your dice. Those loaded things must be mean on leadership rolls and psychic tests, or do you have a separate set for those that only roll low numbers? Even without their power claw nob, orks are devastating in combat. Welcome to 40k, may I introduce you to AV11+ and 2+ saves? The huge number of dice they can roll even after having been whittled down by shooting along with being fearless (they will have more than 12 in the unit when they roll into you on turn 2 Assuming the other guy forgot to bring guns. (turn one if they did not get the initiative) Wat. Assaults happen, at best, on turn 2..
4. Orks have open topped vehicles and those battlewagons shielded by mechs almost always hit enemy lines Until someone plays any kind of anti-armour.. Dark elder also usually hit enemy lines as well with the wargear and jink combined. Hey, guys, I just heard that AV10/11 is impenetrable! Space marine armies (there are many different ones and yes, they each count as a separate army( and you rarely see less than two land raiders as they are usually used in pairs. Very few people spend 440-500 pts or more on LR, as they are far too costly. You cant just say "space marines and have it encompass them all as they are each separate. Where did I say that? Grey knights (I find these especially good) all have assault vehicles that pop their units down in your face. And get munched by weight of fire.
5. Yes, flyers can see over some objects such as infantry and some vehicles. You still need to draw a line of sight. This means that you can have parts of units take cover behind even a lowly rhino and buildings are still effective LOS blockers. They can't block more than one flank. It is possible to move around them to get a shot. That is unless they use non-standard flying bases. Barrage weapons can fire over walls. Sometimes they might even hit I wouldn't hold my breath very often on that though. They auto-hit 1/3 times, and don't always scatter the full 18" However, they do not ignore terrain. When your unit is in area terrain or better yet, the ground floor of a ruin, they still get their cover or in the case of the ruins or buildings simply laugh as the dust settles around the from the top floor because barrage weapons always hit the top floor.

Of course you arte entitled to your opinion and I respect that. "delusions". facts and evidence however do not support your position. You have not read anything, have you. I will continue to disagree with you I will continue to think that close combat is still an effective part of the game, I will continue to believe that it is not a waste. We never said it was a waste, we are arguing that your assertion that melee is more powerful than shooting is incorrect. I will continue to not think that just because an army has more guns, it will auto win. I will continue to believe that strategy and tactics can win a game. Yes, they can. It also helps if your codex was written by ward and has lots of guns. I will continue to believe that I have a right to express my opinion and disagree with you. You do, that was not the argument. We can play this game forever with me stating my opinions and you trolling.Your opinions have no basis in fact, and trolling is something I don't do. We have filled up two pages and I am willing to fill up as many as the server can handle before crashing in order to exercise my right to my opinion and support it with facts. You seem to think that this argument is about me trying to supress you right to speak... So feel free to keep trolling or feel free to respect the fact that I have a right to my own point of view and to support it. I agree, you do have a right. Just as I have the right to prove that you are incorrect.

You call this evidence?

Absolutely, and that is just a taste of possible ways to get around a gunline. of course, this is a dynamic game where after you use those tactics to beat them, they will devise different builds and tactics which you in turn will have to counter and so on and so forth. Then after doing that a bit, you could always go back to your original build and tactics and win again because they will be tailored for something else. It is often also a matter of being a rock paper scissors game but a strategist and tactician can still come out ahead.

EVIL INC wrote:
Absolutely, and that is just a taste of possible ways to get around a gunline. of course, this is a dynamic game where after you use those tactics to beat them, they will devise different builds and tactics which you in turn will have to counter and so on and so forth. Then after doing that a bit, you could always go back to your original build and tactics and win again because they will be tailored for something else. It is often also a matter of being a rock paper scissors game but a strategist and tactician can still come out ahead.

Would anyone else like to explain to him why he is wrong? He's not even trying to string together a coherent argument.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Makutsu wrote:

Spoiler:

Hey, I've started to play Fantasy lately and there was one really cool rule about it.
If you chase your enemy and you run into another unit you get into combat with that other unit.

The idea is if your D6" consolidation allows one model from your unit to base with an enemy model, then you can get into combat with that unit.
This prevents gunline armies that bunch up in a corner as one assault unit would just tear through the entire army.

I think this adds a lot more tactical decision to the gunline army side as:
- they can't deploy too close to each other, but needs to make sure the range is good enough to support another unit.
- Bunching up at a distance means pie plate bait, so again more decision on how to spread out.

What do you guys think?

Ah, Makutsu, it seems we have gone wildly off topic before even the end of page 1.

On Topic, I would like to see either the consolidation rule return, or just generally more reliable melee in 40k.

 Selym wrote:

EVIL INC wrote:
Absolutely, and that is just a taste of possible ways to get around a gunline. of course, this is a dynamic game where after you use those tactics to beat them, they will devise different builds and tactics which you in turn will have to counter and so on and so forth. Then after doing that a bit, you could always go back to your original build and tactics and win again because they will be tailored for something else. It is often also a matter of being a rock paper scissors game but a strategist and tactician can still come out ahead.

Would anyone else like to explain to him why he is wrong? He's not even trying to string together a coherent argument.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Makutsu wrote:

Spoiler:

Hey, I've started to play Fantasy lately and there was one really cool rule about it.
If you chase your enemy and you run into another unit you get into combat with that other unit.

The idea is if your D6" consolidation allows one model from your unit to base with an enemy model, then you can get into combat with that unit.
This prevents gunline armies that bunch up in a corner as one assault unit would just tear through the entire army.

I think this adds a lot more tactical decision to the gunline army side as:
- they can't deploy too close to each other, but needs to make sure the range is good enough to support another unit.
- Bunching up at a distance means pie plate bait, so again more decision on how to spread out.

What do you guys think?

Ah, Makutsu, it seems we have gone wildly off topic before even the end of page 1.

On Topic, I would like to see either the consolidation rule return, or just generally more reliable melee in 40k.

I think he's just trolling, he won't provide proof, all of the things he said as 'proof' are easily denied just by looking things over, and generally yes.

I think nit is funny that any time someone has an opinion that is different from your own you spam nonsense and ignore actual facts and evidence that is given to you in a logical and reasonable fashion tossing out strawman arguments of your own. When you are unable to support your position, you toss about the word trolling in a vain attempt to discredit them. Spam all you like, reasonable and experienced players can see that it is indeed you who are trolling. I am more than willing to feed your trolling because I am willing to support the fact that I have a right to an opinion, a right to express it and support it with facts and evidence. Besides, your antics are funny.

EVIL INC wrote:
I think nit is funny that any time someone has an opinion that is different from your own you spam nonsense and ignore actual facts and evidence that is given to you in a logical and reasonable fashion tossing out strawman arguments of your own. When you are unable to support your position, you toss about the word trolling in a vain attempt to discredit them. Spam all you like, reasonable and experienced players can see that it is indeed you who are trolling. I am more than willing to feed your trolling because I am willing to support the fact that I have a right to an opinion, a right to express it and support it with facts and evidence. Besides, your antics are funny.

EVIL INC wrote:
We can play this game forever with me stating my opinions and you trolling. So feel free to keep trolling or feel free to respect the fact that I have a right to my own point of view and to support it.

Thus far you have made nothing more than wild assertions, whilst calling those who oppose you "trolls". You also insinuate that we are incompetent, and that we have no idea how to make an effective argument or even use basic game mechanics.

I and several others have used evidence to support our arguments, and you have done no more than tell us that you've used evidence.

I hereby declare you to be trolling, and cease to bother replying to you.

Thus far, I have made valid statements and I have supported them with factual evidence citing actual game mechanics while you make wild claims and refuse to support them. Just because I disagree with you, you started calling me a troll, telling me I have no right to have an opinion that differs from your own, that I have no right to express my opinion or support it with evidence and insinuate that I am incompetent as a player and unable to win games. You furthermore even flat out called me a liar when I stated that I have been playing this game since Rogue Trader.
Your behavior is what is called trolling in the "online" vernacular.
If you wish to stop trolling, than good, you will no longer be wasting the time of the rest of us.

So, as we were saying, consolidating into combat would balance out the melee forces to some degree, but it would be possible to construct an unstoppable rape train if the enemy kept a 6" or less spread of units.

It seems that if there were some way of making melee more reliable, whilst upholding the strengths of shooting, we'd be onto something.

Perhaps making it so that you can run and assault, and making whatever rule that already allows you to do that into something else...

Or we could make it so that you can only consolidate into one extra unit, rather than all of them.

Actually, consolidating into combat with secondary units was removed because it unbalanced the game. The removal of it has actually helped bring a more balanced and well rounded game.
if it were to be brought back, I would want to see something brought in to help counterbalance it in other ways. For example, the secondary assault targets getting overwatch shots of their own at BS 2 so that they hit on a 5 or 6.
I can see MAYE going into a single second unit if it gets a regular overwatch shot. However, when something is already fixed and no longer broken, I don't see why re-breaking it would be necessary.
As it is now a 12 inch assault from a unit that is able to cross the field unscathed on turn one is bad enough already. Add in to that units like the special genestealers that just pop out of the terrain your in without even having to bother crossing the field tip it way over.

I'm getting a buzzing noise.

Back when the consolidation rule was removed, it was because at the time melee was far more powerful than shooting. Not that the opposite is the case, having something to buff melee would be nice.

Still, I think that if consolidation into assault was brought back, we should keep the current consolidation distance (max 6"), and only allow it to take you into a second unit, rather than a third, fourth etc.