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Hey, I've started to play Fantasy lately and there was one really cool rule about it.
If you chase your enemy and you run into another unit you get into combat with that other unit.

The idea is if your D6" consolidation allows one model from your unit to base with an enemy model, then you can get into combat with that unit.
This prevents gunline armies that bunch up in a corner as one assault unit would just tear through the entire army.

I think this adds a lot more tactical decision to the gunline army side as:
- they can't deploy too close to each other, but needs to make sure the range is good enough to support another unit.
- Bunching up at a distance means pie plate bait, so again more decision on how to spread out.

What do you guys think?

That's how 40k last used to be lol it was good for some armies terrible for others it didn't work out balanced in the end that why it was taken out of 6th edition.

There's a reason that the rule was removed a few editions ago.

Dat Guy wrote:
That's how 40k last used to be lol it was good for some armies terrible for others it didn't work out balanced in the end that why it was taken out of 6th edition.

Didn't know that only started in 6th...

But honestly that's the whole point, while Gunline armies are good with shooting they can dominate with shooting and overwatch which should give them an edge under these circumstances.

Also, a rule taken out doesn't necessarily mean it is bad, it might be due to the overhaul of the entire system hence leading to the removal of the rule.

That's how 40k last used to be lol it was good for some armies terrible for others it didn't work out balanced in the end that why it was taken out of 6th edition.

I don't know if thats a fair statement to make. Its certainly not balanced with it gone.

Well I can't make that call for sure about it balancing out or being unbalanced for sure but, I know genestealers can no longer hop around from close combat to close combat to close combat and so forth. But a unit can only over watch during a charge being declared against them not a consolidation also on top of that a unit can only over watch once per turn.

Dat Guy wrote:
Well I can't make that call for sure about it balancing out or being unbalanced for sure but, I know genestealers can no longer hop around from close combat to close combat to close combat and so forth. But a unit can only over watch during a charge being declared against them not a consolidation also on top of that a unit can only over watch once per turn.

While true, you could easily change the overwatch rules to allow a unit that is being brought into close combat by a consolidation move is allowed to fire overwatch. It should still have the restriction of only one overwatch per turn however. Still, that would only really affect tau (because of support fire rule), space marines (ATSKNF not allowing overrun so the same unit getting consolidated into), or a unit that was previously charged that turn but the charge failed. Not game breaking changes and it would help prevent close assault units hanging in the wind if they manage to wipe out a unit.

This really makes sense in my opinion as then it penalizes gunline armies for cramming in a little corner in the far right.
It also allows you to recatch units that have fled combat if they rolled low enough for you to catch them.

But then, shooting wouldn't be all powerful, and we can't have that now can we.

 Dakkamite wrote:
But then, shooting wouldn't be all powerful, and we can't have that now can we.

I, the Orks, the Tyranids, the Daemons and the CSM disagree
Personally, I can't imagine a Daemon Prince not munching half an army.

It'd make the price tag bearable.

 Dakkamite wrote:
But then, shooting wouldn't be all powerful, and we can't have that now can we.

Yeah, why don't we make a hit on overwatch halve the charge distance, would definitely be perfect

Honestly though, I think that adding this little thing in would bring assault armies back to the same level as the shooting armies.

Only if you let me shoot into my own combats. They're Tau, everybody knows they're already dead. Might as well drop large blast templates and speed up the inevitable.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Only if you let me shoot into my own combats. They're Tau, everybody knows they're already dead. Might as well drop large blast templates and speed up the inevitable.

Well said, commander of every artillery gunline ever!

Assault armies are still good, people who know how to play can do it well, chaos demons tear face. Also tyranids and orks still need to be updated, I would wait before this happens.

I actually think warhammer 40k right now has the best play style since 3rd edition. And assaults still happen and they are still effective and dirty.

People are complaining cause they want and expect too rampage across the board and kill everything and always win. Shooting is hard now with all these cover saves, yeah their is stuff that ignores cover but if you got skill you will know how to respond and counter act situations. Then it comes down to dice rolls.

I agree shooting is more powerful over all compared to close combat, but when close combat happens it FREAKING wrecks face!

 Dakkamite wrote:
But then, shooting wouldn't be all powerful, and we can't have that now can we.

The problem isn't that it makes assaulting more powerful (or shooting too weak), it's that it makes assaulting even more black and white than it is now. Consolidating into combat doesn't help with the biggest problem with assault armies, getting into charge range in the first place. It just makes it so once you successfully charge you just massacre your way from unit to unit without spending any time out in the open where you can be shot at. So it's even more a case of "if I charge, I win, if I fail, you win".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
But then, shooting wouldn't be all powerful, and we can't have that now can we.

The problem isn't that it makes assaulting more powerful (or shooting too weak), it's that it makes assaulting even more black and white than it is now. Consolidating into combat doesn't help with the biggest problem with assault armies, getting into charge range in the first place. It just makes it so once you successfully charge you just massacre your way from unit to unit without spending any time out in the open where you can be shot at. So it's even more a case of "if I charge, I win, if I fail, you win".

Isn't that how Waaaghs tend to go?

With the speed of many of the armies and the ability to literally plop down into the middle of an enemy, that totally unbalanced the game. Gunline armies are at a distinct disadvantage because of the short ranges of the weapons and the small size of the board. We even have had many bug and ork players shave their gaming boards down even smaller yet to make it worse (oh the other other guy wont notice if my table is 2 inches smaller than regulation).
Taking that out of the game did not give gunline armies any advantage at all. As a matter of fact the game is still close combat game oriented. It merely balanced it out a little bit to help add in more tactics and strategy.

EVIL INC wrote:
With the speed of many of the armies and the ability to literally plop down into the middle of an enemy, that totally unbalanced the game. Gunline armies are at a distinct disadvantage because of the short ranges of the weapons and the small size of the board. We even have had many bug and ork players shave their gaming boards down even smaller yet to make it worse (oh the other other guy wont notice if my table is 2 inches smaller than regulation).
Taking that out of the game did not give gunline armies any advantage at all. As a matter of fact the game is still close combat game oriented. It merely balanced it out a little bit to help add in more tactics and strategy.

...Have you played since 3rd edition? Because shooting has primarily been strong since 4th, got better in 5th, and generally got far too strong in 6th.

I have been playing since Rogue Trader and seen close combat and shooting in all of their incarnations. Yes, shooting has been getting stronger as the game has progressed. Currently in 6th, it is at it's strongest. Almost as powerful as close combat. Of course, you will always see the bug or ork players who will always cry and whine that it is "too strong". The game calls for the use of tactics and strategy. If you played on planet bowling ball with zero cover and removed fleet of foot, removed transports, removed deep strike and infiltrating, THEN shooting might be a little overpowered. As it stands, it is still 2nd to close combat in power.

EVIL INC wrote:
I have been playing since Rogue Trader and seen close combat and shooting in all of their incarnations. Yes, shooting has been getting stronger as the game has progressed. Currently in 6th, it is at it's strongest. Almost as powerful as close combat. Of course, you will always see the bug or ork players who will always cry and whine that it is "too strong". The game calls for the use of tactics and strategy. If you played on planet bowling ball with zero cover and removed fleet of foot, removed transports, removed deep strike and infiltrating, THEN shooting might be a little overpowered. As it stands, it is still 2nd to close combat in power.

Almost as powerful as...Yeah something is horribly off if you actually think CC is actually powerful aside from very, very specific builds. Screamerstar for example, but it certainly doesn't prove CC is awesome, it just means that the units are really, really good enough to survive in a shooting edition

Deepstriking: Most gunline armies will shoot your army down piece meal, in the case of tau they'll shoot you as you arrive, only good deepstrikers now are those with decent SHOOTING weaponry, such as combi-Terminators, combi-sternguard, and etc, even Daemons prefer to move across the board in most cases unless they have something specific setup.

Infiltrating: Same deal, except now your at the whims of the board edge, and you'll still be needing to stand there for a turn and be shot.

Fleet of Foot: Haha, really, it was good in 5th as it actually mattered, now it's just trying to help your hopefully lucky charges.

Transports: Unless its assault you are now stuck outside the vehicle for a turn and getting shot up, or the transport itself is weak and shot down forcing you to footslog.

In an era where Eldar, Tau, and IG exist, you've got plenty of anti-CC options if you want to take an all corners list. You gotta deal with Wave Serpant Spam, Riptides and cover ignoring markerlights, and large amounts of barrage sniping. CC is so laughable now.

No thanks, returning to the days when assault armies automatically won if they reached close combat doesn't really thrill me. A powerful enough CC unit would kill the first target and consolidate into the next before you even had a turn to move stuff away. Armies that sucked at CC would just fold after a 1st/2nd turn rush, the game being only about how long it takes to get wiped out instead of any thought about victory.

Spetulhu wrote:
No thanks, returning to the days when assault armies automatically won if they reached close combat doesn't really thrill me. A powerful enough CC unit would kill the first target and consolidate into the next before you even had a turn to move stuff away. Armies that sucked at CC would just fold after a 1st/2nd turn rush, the game being only about how long it takes to get wiped out instead of any thought about victory.

Yes because Third edition Rhino Rush assault was CC at the height of it's power. After that though it was about equal in 4th, then it drops quite a bit in 5th, and now it's not really an option anymore unless you have a deathstar unit capable of it.

Spetulhu wrote:
No thanks, returning to the days when assault armies automatically won if they reached close combat doesn't really thrill me. A powerful enough CC unit would kill the first target and consolidate into the next before you even had a turn to move stuff away. Armies that sucked at CC would just fold after a 1st/2nd turn rush, the game being only about how long it takes to get wiped out instead of any thought about victory.

That's kinda the whole point, if you bunch your things up then they should all die because there is nowhere to run.
Don't forget consolidation is only 6" MAX.

The whole purpose is to penalize armies that bunch up in a bunker style.
Gunline armies tend to do that currently and it makes it much more difficult for armies that are suffering from high quality assault units.

EVIL INC wrote:
Taking that out of the game did not give gunline armies any advantage at all. As a matter of fact the game is still close combat game oriented. It merely balanced it out a little bit to help add in more tactics and strategy.

Wat.

EVIL INC wrote:I have been playing since Rogue Trader and seen close combat and shooting in all of their incarnations. Yes, shooting has been getting stronger as the game has progressed. Currently in 6th, it is at it's strongest. Almost as powerful as close combat. Of course, you will always see the bug or ork players who will always cry and whine that it is "too strong". The game calls for the use of tactics and strategy. If you played on planet bowling ball with zero cover and removed fleet of foot, removed transports, removed deep strike and infiltrating, THEN shooting might be a little overpowered. As it stands, it is still 2nd to close combat in power.

Dafuq kind of drugs have you been on for the last two editions?
In 5th you could make a reasonable effort with assault, but it was not much better than shooting, now in 6th, even Tyranids have to focus on shooting.
Melee is almost entirely out of the question in this ed, everyone is slapping down gunlines, using fliers, and generally invalidating anything less than TH/SS termies.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing a true 'sweeping advance' where models actually move after combat as they do in fantasy - and if this move brings them into contact with another enemy, then so be it.

In most cases, getting into close combat in 6th ed. is harder than ever, so I don't see much of a problem in buffing the state of affairs for melee units once they get there. Logically it makes no sense for a unit that has just swept all opponents before it to stop, stand in the open, take a turn of shooting, and then take a further 'turn' of shooting from overwatch when they charge.

Another thing that this would hopefully change in my mind, is attempting to prolong a combat to last into your opponents turn.
I know some people consider it part of the challenge/ strategy of warhammer 40k, when trying to plan an assault to last through your turn, and then finish in the opponent's (this is of course to tie up an opponent's squad, and also keep yours out of the line of fire for a turn). However I find it wholly against the narrative of the game (competitive aspects aside). Why would a squad of Khorne Berzerkers try to minimalize casualties under any circumstance? We should offer some kind of reward or benefit to a squad that routs or wipes an enemy in the first turn of combat, not penalize them with an additional turn of shooting directed at them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
But then, shooting wouldn't be all powerful, and we can't have that now can we.

The problem isn't that it makes assaulting more powerful (or shooting too weak), it's that it makes assaulting even more black and white than it is now. Consolidating into combat doesn't help with the biggest problem with assault armies, getting into charge range in the first place. It just makes it so once you successfully charge you just massacre your way from unit to unit without spending any time out in the open where you can be shot at. So it's even more a case of "if I charge, I win, if I fail, you win".

Which thus would make the units that can make it into cc already all the more terrifying. If you look at the chaos daemon codex, the assault armies don't tend to be chock full of bloodletters or anything. They tend to have a Lord of Change or Fateweaver (Fateweaver seems more popular), daemon princes, and then some flesh hounds and for some time slaanesh was being toted about for moves through cover fast moving models. All of these were popular because they could reach close combat in enough time to do enough damage whilst not being shot for 4 turns before making it there. With the advent of consolidation into another wave, as Pergrine states, this wouldn't help the ork boy make it into combat. It wouldn't help the footslogger slowly reach the enemy... All it would do is make the Chaos Spawn, Khornelord, nurgle biker lord, winged daemon prince CD, FMC, and Fleshounds better further distancing themselves from the CC units that are really struggling (if you are still really in the urge to test it out. I say perhaps at the very least making overwatch on the second and up charge at full bs. They just saw their buddies die. They might be afraid, but they are probably ready to shoot at them).

I love CC. Heck, I play daemons, I own quite a few berzerkers and spawn, and I'm planning on expanding to a small army of nids and orks someday. To me, cc is underpowered with very few lists being able to capably do it a good cause. The only real codex that can seemingly make it work is chaos and often they still drag tzeentch for the dakka and have to toss away their bloodletters and bloodchrushers due to the current edition. Yet, for all of that, I don't feel this would solve much for the bloodletters, bloodcrushers, orks, and the sorts and feel it would only better the few units that can already do damage.

I respect your guys opinions. You have a right to them and to express them. However, the facts simply do not support them. Warhammer 40k is still a "hero" game where the battle is won or lost in close combat. I have seen a lot of people express the opinions that shooting is overpowered when the all evidence shows that it simply is not. Fleet of foot and transports still get close combat armies into combat on turn 2, turn one if your opponent have first turn as the "no assaulting on turn one only applies to the player who actually gets to go first. I say if you find that you are losing to shooty armies, than instead of throwing up your hands and saying shooting is overpowered, understand that the fault lies in yourself.
1. Make use of cover-currently, more cover saves are allowed than ever before. You don't even need to actually be in cover, the silly tactic of staggering and mixing units alone gives you saves in the wide open spaces. Use buildings, vehicles and other units as cover and your killy killy units make t to combat unscathed. Use transports effectively.
2. Overwatch- by itself allows you to kill a model or two at the most since you need natural sixes to hit never mind those that actually wound still need to wound and allow armor saves. There is also the fact that they can only fire at the first unit making the charge attempt. You charge first with your cheapy throwaway unit and follow up with your heavy hitters.
3. There are a million ways to get around it. Learn more than one aspect of the game. Learn tactics and learn strategy, yes, they are two separate things.
Simply crying that shooting is too powerful will never make it so. The irrefutable fact remains, the game is geared towards close combat and the close combat armies have always had the advantage. This remains so now. The gap is narrowing but it is still there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are unable to make your way past a lasgun, try posting a thread for help in the tactics and strategy section and asking others with more experience to help you out and assist you in learning to wargame. Spamming here that shooting is too powerful and putting up bogus reasons will never help you. Become a better player and simply learn to overcome your weaknesses..

EVIL INC wrote:
I respect your guys opinions. You have a right to them and to express them. However, the facts simply do not support them. Warhammer 40k is still a "hero" game where the battle is won or lost in close combat. I have seen a lot of people express the opinions that shooting is overpowered when the all evidence shows that it simply is not. Fleet of foot and transports still get close combat armies into combat on turn 2, turn one if your opponent have first turn as the "no assaulting on turn one only applies to the player who actually gets to go first. I say if you find that you are losing to shooty armies, than instead of throwing up your hands and saying shooting is overpowered, understand that the fault lies in yourself.
1. Make use of cover-currently, more cover saves are allowed than ever before. You don't even need to actually be in cover, the silly tactic of staggering and mixing units alone gives you saves in the wide open spaces. Use buildings, vehicles and other units as cover and your killy killy units make t to combat unscathed. Use transports effectively.
2. Overwatch- by itself allows you to kill a model or two at the most since you need natural sixes to hit never mind those that actually wound still need to wound and allow armor saves. There is also the fact that they can only fire at the first unit making the charge attempt. You charge first with your cheapy throwaway unit and follow up with your heavy hitters.
3. There are a million ways to get around it. Learn more than one aspect of the game. Learn tactics and learn strategy, yes, they are two separate things.
Simply crying that shooting is too powerful will never make it so. The irrefutable fact remains, the game is geared towards close combat and the close combat armies have always had the advantage. This remains so now. The gap is narrowing but it is still there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are unable to make your way past a lasgun, try posting a thread for help in the tactics and strategy section and asking others with more experience to help you out and assist you in learning to wargame. Spamming here that shooting is too powerful and putting up bogus reasons will never help you. Become a better player and simply learn to overcome your weaknesses..

I must curiously ask. If it is decided in cc... then why is it that the generally considered two best armies involve one list that is pure shooting and another that very few lists actually bring cc specialists?

1. Less cover than before. Last edition all you needed was half your army in cover for it to work. IG, Orks, heck even arguably nids used this to their advantage to let them advance forward without having to fret about how crummy their armour was. Along with that, you seem to forget barrage weapons, the super popular heldrake, the super popular wraithserpent vehicles that shoot out enough dakka to laugh at your cover saves, the recent upgrade to the legion of the damned with ignores cover, and, perhaps most importantly, the advent of the Tau being upgraded from a middling codex that had pretty much only 1 effective build to becoming a codex with many powerful units. Now then, what do the tau have again that makes cover much less useful? Ah yes markerlights. Few lists don't have at least some of those in them. Yes, not every target they will shoot shall have markerlights blazing upon them, but they don't need it. To counter assaults all one needs is proper target prioritization. There's only so many fast and mobile targets that are designed to wrap you up in cc until the rest of the army catches up.
2. The throwaway unit might make the difference between first blood and denying them that. Along with that, charging that lone model comes with its own risk. The enemy might not actually shoot them. This is a gamble for the enemy but can still occur. Supporting fire is another thing that Tau have and although random, the overwatch can be buffed. Certain divination members can make their overwatch at natural bs, and necrons have a gun that if you roll a to hit of 6 x2 shots. Oh, and rolling a 6 isn't as bad on bs2 orks nor is it the worst possible thing on even bs3 dudes (still not optimal I will admit). It also means we need two units to be close enough to be capable of charging.
3. Try and play a pure Khorne daemon army against any proficient eldar/tau player. You'll find it isn't as easy as you might expect.
If you want to hear other reasons why many consider (In their own opinion), then I'll link Ailerous. I don't always agree with him, but in this one case he has a lot of valid reasons for why assault is generally considered worse and the only army that is generally considered to be able to do CC well in this edition is Chaos Daemons

In terms of the basics, it isn't really one thing per say. It's really a combination of small and tiny factors that continue to hammer down. Random charge distances that make every charge a ? meaning that people are much less prone to risking a charge unless even closer than the average of 7" strictly because there are those times you will roll 2 ones. It doesn't matter if the max range is 12. To charge 12" is so unlikely that unless you don't want to run and the enemy has a useless or no overwatch at all you'd never even try it. Overwatch is a minor one. Whilst it has made the difference between a foe making a charge on me once or twice, it isn't that common. It's more of a icing on the top as in cc you will risk even more losses. Doesn't matter if tau are worthless at CC. The worst they can do is hit you on a 5+ and most units on a 4+. Losing models from the front also was another little nerf. The buffing of the greatest shooting army as well as handing out more ignores cover guns crushed quite a few cc armies that tended to have bad armor to begin with. These things and more compounded into a crippling. The CC armies that can quickly reach their foes still work with brutal efficiency. The problem isn't with them. The problem is with the slower assaulting units.

Also vehicles and deep striking don't just help assault armies. They help shooty armies. Sternguard aren't known for their CC capabilities . The wraithserpent and Leman Russ as well as Heldrake aren't known for their ability to fight in cc either and don't forget the pretty little interceptor guns.

Like others have said, it's been removed for a reason.

I think it'd be a cool rule for a certain unit to have, but not for every unit. Although this works nicely in Fantasy, and it is a great rule (Fantasy's full of 'em ) , it wouldn't really work in 40k. Overrun would be broken in Fantasy if you could do so in any direction, which is essentially what you're doing in 40k.

EVIL INC wrote:
1) However, the facts simply do not support them.

2) Warhammer 40k is still a "hero" game where the battle is won or lost in close combat.

3) I have seen a lot of people express the opinions that shooting is overpowered when the all evidence shows that it simply is not.

4) Fleet of foot and transports still get close combat armies into combat on turn 2, turn one if your opponent have first turn as the "no assaulting on turn one only applies to the player who actually gets to go first. I say if you find that you are losing to shooty armies, than instead of throwing up your hands and saying shooting is overpowered, understand that the fault lies in yourself.

5) 1. Make use of cover-currently, more cover saves are allowed than ever before. You don't even need to actually be in cover, the silly tactic of staggering and mixing units alone gives you saves in the wide open spaces. Use buildings, vehicles and other units as cover and your killy killy units make t to combat unscathed. Use transports effectively.

6) 2. Overwatch- by itself allows you to kill a model or two at the most since you need natural sixes to hit never mind those that actually wound still need to wound and allow armor saves. There is also the fact that they can only fire at the first unit making the charge attempt. You charge first with your cheapy throwaway unit and follow up with your heavy hitters.

7) 3. There are a million ways to get around it. Learn more than one aspect of the game. Learn tactics and learn strategy, yes, they are two separate things.

8) Simply crying that shooting is too powerful will never make it so. The irrefutable fact remains, the game is geared towards close combat and the close combat armies have always had the advantage. This remains so now. The gap is narrowing but it is still there.

9) If you are unable to make your way past a lasgun, try posting a thread for help in the tactics and strategy section and asking others with more experience to help you out and assist you in learning to wargame. Spamming here that shooting is too powerful and putting up bogus reasons will never help you. Become a better player and simply learn to overcome your weaknesses..

1) Oh, really?

2) Define "hero game". 40k is a hero game in that it operates on the "heroic" scale (28mm), and in this Ed has a ridiculous focus on "characters". The battle in 6th tends to be decided by the big guns, not the pen knife Pvt. Larry has in his backpack. I have seen (and been on both ends of) games where one side gets shot off the table before getting within 6" of an enemy model.

3) No. Shooting is not op. Excessive cheese units, however, are. It just so happens that those cheese unit in this edition happen to have guns, and don't take to melee particularly well.

4) I have minimal experience of fleet, but transports are something I know about. The average Methul Bawks will not allow you to assault on the turn you disembark. Considering that you'll be spending one turn moving, and then another moving/disembarking, at best a transported unit will assault on turn 3. Assuming they/their transport was not shot to death.
If something like a LR is taken, a turn 2 transport assault is possible. However, it costs 220-250 points base, and does sod all for most of the game.
If open-topped transports are taken, they tend to be on the rather flimsy side, offering about as much protection as the proverbial cardboard box (I'm looking at you,Battlewagon).
Loosing to a shooty army may be partially down to personal faults. Such as the choice to take a knife to a gunfight.

5) Huh, and here I was thinking that open spaces are safer than those terrain pieces. Silly me. /sarcasm.
In a world where heldrakes ignore your saves, shooty units flank you (via either deployment or maneuverability), it's quite a bit harder to get cover than in the last ed. As for transports, I covered that in (4).

6) Overwatch isn't the problem. It just exacerbates the mechanics already in place. And Tau like to abuse it.
I take quite a few throwaway units at times, and do you know what they all have in common? They get shot to pieces before I can use them as cannon fodder my way.

7) There are very few ways to get around the power of a gunline in this ed.

8) Okay, at this point I'm getting the feeling you've never played a game of 6th ed 40k. Or 5th, for that matter.

9) And you could tell us what rule mechanics and and units make melee more powerful than shooting in this Ed. If you're unable to accomplish this, I shall just assume you're trolling here.