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 juraigamer wrote:

Also tau are bad at killing land raiders.

Why are people saying tau are bad at killing lr's? Seriously? Who the Please don't try and bypass the language filters like this. Reds8n actually believes that? I play tau and routinely pop lr's the first turn from my two hh's?

Someone please explain why str 10 ap1 is a terrible at destroying land raiders? Someone anyone? I must know why long strike can kill any vehicle in the game on a 4+ is bad.

And I'm being serious. Someone please tell me why tau suck at killing land raiders.

4 TL shots from missiles, not godamn 8.
Whole other story.

The SMS is another 4 TL shots, but as tehy are only S5, they can't even glance the stormraven.


Tau shift in the new codex is funny, they went from the gods of AT fire, to one of the armies with the hardest time to deal with heavly armored targets



And the reason S10AP1 is "horrible" at killing LR, is that it's 1 shot only. with 66% to hit (unsupported) and 50% to actually penetrate for that AP1 to even matter, and then 50% to kill.
That means a railhead (an uncommon choice these days) has 16.5% to actually 1-shot a land raider OUT of cover.

How you commonly kill a LR on turn 1 is beyond me, and brakes statistics even when using longstrike AND markerlight support.

And longstrike is a single special character, who does not add and durability to the not-that-hard-to-kill hammerhead.

 BoomWolf wrote:
4 TL shots from missiles, not godamn 8.
Whole other story.




And the reason S10AP1 is "horrible" at killing LR, is that it's 1 shot only. with 66% to hit (unsupported) and 50% to actually penetrate for that AP1 to even matter, and then 50% to kill.
That means a railhead (an uncommon choice these days) has 16.5% to actually 1-shot a land raider OUT of cover.

How you commonly kill a LR on turn 1 is beyond me, and brakes statistics even when using longstrike AND markerlight support.

And longstrike is a single special character, who does not add and durability to the not-that-hard-to-kill hammerhead.

Please reread what I wrote then apply math hammer and statistics as needed.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

Also tau are bad at killing land raiders.

Why are people saying tau are bad at killing lr's? Seriously? Who the actually believes that? I play tau and routinely pop lr's the first turn from my two hh's?

Someone please explain why str 10 ap1 is a terrible at destroying land raiders? Someone anyone? I must know why long strike can kill any vehicle in the game on a 4+ is bad.

And I'm being serious. Someone please tell me why tau suck at killing land raiders.

Well, I do. A normal Hammerhead deals an average of .11 Destroyed Results to a Landraider and an average of .33 HP/Turn before cover saves. Longstrike is much better, he deals an average of .22 Destroyed Results and .62 HP/Turn before cover saves.

So, on average you should kill a Land Raider on the first turn approximately once every three games with both a normal Railhead and Longstrike. Once every five games if they have cover or are popping smoke. Many Tau players don't include even one Railhead not to mention the target painted on LongStrike's head if an opponent does have Heavy Armor. The GodHamer raider is better at killing the Hammerhead .20 than the Hammerhead is at destroying it, .11. Only Longstrike is marginally better at .22.

Math would tend say you are inflating your Hammerhead's performance.

 Zagman wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

Also tau are bad at killing land raiders.

Why are people saying tau are bad at killing lr's? Seriously? Who the actually believes that? I play tau and routinely pop lr's the first turn from my two hh's?

Someone please explain why str 10 ap1 is a terrible at destroying land raiders? Someone anyone? I must know why long strike can kill any vehicle in the game on a 4+ is bad.

And I'm being serious. Someone please tell me why tau suck at killing land raiders.

Well, I do. A normal Hammerhead deals an average of .11 Destroyed Results to a Landraider and an average of .33 HP/Turn before cover saves. Longstrike is much better, he deals an average of .22 Destroyed Results and .62 HP/Turn before cover saves.

So, on average you should kill a Land Raider on the first turn approximately once every three games with both a normal Railhead and Longstrike. Once every five games if they have cover or are popping smoke. Many Tau players don't include even one Railhead not to mention the target painted on LongStrike's head if an opponent does have Heavy Armor. The GodHamer raider is better at killing the Hammerhead .20 than the Hammerhead is at destroying it, .11. Only Longstrike is marginally better at .22.

Math would tend say you are inflating your Hammerhead's performance.

In my post I stated I always take 2 hammerheads but you and boom wolf didn't read that part! So how am I inflating the performance of 2 hammerheads? And yes i focus land raiders down with my 2 hammerheads. Besides every turn they are shooting at my hammerheads is them not focusing heavy weapons on my riptide(1) and crisis suits.

And as you DIDNT read ours, we DID read yours,
The odds of a hammerhead to pop a land raider turn 1 are low enough that even if you had longstrike and 5(!!!) other hammerheads, you would not average on a land raider on turn 1 every game. so 2 hammerhead are NOTHING for lard raider killing power.

A single fusion/fusion suit does not only cost half, but has much higher killrate on them. railgun hammerheads are swiss army knifes, always decent-never quite perfect. (unlike the ion who are amazing against artillery, 3+ MC and MeQ, but poor against other stuff)

Thanks for the info everyone. Again I repeat to the people who are 'amazed a Grey Knight player has to use tactics to win,' I joined the game a year ago during 6th ed and I've had to use tactics in every game I've played. I win some and lose some and no match has been a onesided match.

Against the new Tau and Eldar there is currently no competition. I am literally tabled by turn 3 in every game I've played and its incredibly demoralising. This is why I am asking for advice so I can amaze people with the concept of a grey knight player needing tactics to win :O

I have considered Red Hunters ubt not sure what I could use most of. I'm also under the impression that they need to be the main force and not my Grey Knights?

GK were not invulnerable in 5th, they just had very, very good tech. In general, they were killing my BA only somewhat faster than I could kill them.

But now, GK are stuck playing the LOS blocking hopscotch the rest of us are.

Or land raiders. land raiders are awesome in the "bring less melta" opinion in the current meta.

Triple-raider lists are very, VERY hard to beat without some melta spam.

Well triple raider lists aren't shooting that well, and their occupants do have to get out at some point. I'm not sure how sold I am on that solution. Of course, I never go into battles without at least some melta, so maybe my perception is skewed.

Tau and Eldar excel at defeating small elite armies by throwing a ton of shooting dice and waiting for you to fail saves.

You can approach that 3 ways as I see it. None of them are auto-win, but they can help mitigate some of the Tau/Eldar advantages.

1. More bodies. Search out Hulksmash's GK lists or the one Gonyo won DaBoyz GT 2012 with. They both had ~50 power armored GK with some support units. I play Eldar and haven't lost to GK yet, but the GK I've faced have had 40 models or less in the entire army.

2. MSU mech. Min/max your units with razorbacks. Either 5 man strike squads, purifiers, or coteaz with henchmen. Aim for 6-9 razorbacks and max your heavies out with riflemen or NDK's. Yes all those units are easyish for Tau/Eldar to kill, but MSU theory says they waste overkill on small cheap units and when your turn comes around you still have enough to cause damage.

3. Tailor to their weaknesses. Bring a land raider or two and a stormraven or two. Probably the least reliable option but Tau/Eldar can struggle against LR's and SR's more than anything else in the GK codex.

On a side note, tons of shooting is also good for dealing with hordes. Because it's, you know, tons of shooting. Weight of fire is superior to the AP concept in every way, except when trying to get explodes on the vehicle table.

 BoomWolf wrote:
And as you DIDNT read ours, we DID read yours,
The odds of a hammerhead to pop a land raider turn 1 are low enough that even if you had longstrike and 5(!!!) other hammerheads, you would not average on a land raider on turn 1 every game. so 2 hammerhead are NOTHING for lard raider killing power.

A single fusion/fusion suit does not only cost half, but has much higher killrate on them. railgun hammerheads are swiss army knifes, always decent-never quite perfect. (unlike the ion who are amazing against artillery, 3+ MC and MeQ, but poor against other stuff)

And yet you fail to understand the number one rule with dice. You mileage may vary! You cannot guarantee the outcome of every roll with math more than top scientist can explain why twins who are genetically similar have completely different personality's. Railhead hammerheads have never failed me! There is not tank my twin railhead hammerheads who I named Beavis and Butthead don't kill every turn they shoot. Conversely I have never had a Ion head EVER perform the way it should. I have yet to kill more than a 40pts of anything in the past 3 years. beavis and butthead both shoot a squad of marines roll 6 dice I roll 4 ones, and 2 threes. Statiscitcaly I shouldnt be rolling more ones than anything every other turn, but thats the way it goes. Why? Because its called CHANCE! And people who worship numbers and staticistcs should stick to card games because dice can be traitorous!

I'll leave you with a quote from Han Solo.

Never tell me the odds!

You can't violate the laws of large numbers of dice, even if you think that you can. This is the real rule number one with dice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Try again. I don't believe you about your railheads. Their combined odds of taking out even a predator from the front aren't that hot, much less AV 14. Which you need a 5+ to pen, btw. So even if they both hit, there is a 4/9 chance that neither pen.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't violate the laws of large numbers of dice, even if you think that you can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Try again. I don't believe you about your railheads. Their combined odds of taking out even a predator from the front aren't that hot, much less AV 14. Which you need a 5+ to pen, btw. So even if they both hit, there is a 4/9 chance that neither pen.

And as long as we are dealing with Dice probability, there is the probability they dont perform to statistically odds. And your also assuming the dice you use are balanced right?

 Gitsmasher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't violate the laws of large numbers of dice, even if you think that you can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Try again. I don't believe you about your railheads. Their combined odds of taking out even a predator from the front aren't that hot, much less AV 14. Which you need a 5+ to pen, btw. So even if they both hit, there is a 4/9 chance that neither pen.

And as long as we are dealing with Dice probability, there is the probability they dont perform to statistically odds. And your also assuming the dice you use are balanced right?

That probability you speak of goes to zero over a large number of rolls. If you're using loaded dice, then yes, that messes everything up.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't violate the laws of large numbers of dice, even if you think that you can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers

Try again. I don't believe you about your railheads. Their combined odds of taking out even a predator from the front aren't that hot, much less AV 14. Which you need a 5+ to pen, btw. So even if they both hit, there is a 4/9 chance that neither pen.

And as long as we are dealing with Dice probability, there is the probability they dont perform to statistically odds. And your also assuming the dice you use are balanced right?

That probability you speak of goes to zero over a large number of rolls. If you're using loaded dice, then yes, that messes everything up.

No go read the article *not all dice are created equal* to learn about *balanced* dice. Or you could use those laser cut precision uncolored game science dice, that are supposed to be the most statistical dice you can get. I bought some and rolled a bunch of snake eyes with them. I got laughed out of the game store that day

And we are talking about railgun single shots, not ork shoota boys.

Yes, but over the course of hundreds of games, those railgun shots will still obey the law of large numbers. If we randomize the dice you are using, the unbalanced factor will average out as well.

It's not even that important, because most Tau aren't rolling out hammerheads anyway. For this exact reason: only one quality shot per tank.

Martel732 wrote:
Well triple raider lists aren't shooting that well, and their occupants do have to get out at some point. I'm not sure how sold I am on that solution. Of course, I never go into battles without at least some melta, so maybe my perception is skewed.

They gotta get out at some point-but that point can be after tank-shocking half the enemy army off board.
Forcing silly LD checks is an efficient way to remove MC from the field.

But are you using the same dice over those hundred or so games? If so then your dice corners will become worn down and will not roll to statistical average.
Are you using those small GW 12mm dice? It was proven that those roll more ones due to the way they are made.

If your gonna use mathematical laws then you need to take into consideration the condition of your dice, as well as how they were manufactured.

I don't think the land raider list will win the race of tank shocking vs dangerous terrain tests. Because that's where a lot my troops will be until your tanks are immobilized.

MCs don't automatically die when they fail a LD check on tank shock. They just fall back and then regroup. I don't understand why this is so good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gitsmasher wrote:
But are you using the same dice over those hundred or so games? If so then your dice corners will become worn down and will not roll to statistical average.
Are you using those small GW 12mm dice? It was proven that those roll more ones due to the way they are made.

If your gonna use mathematical laws then you need to take into consideration the condition of your dice, as well as how they were manufactured.

No, I'm talking about a random assortment of dice as well. If the dice are imbalanced to the point of statistical significance, that's cheating. I'm assuming no cheating here.

Well, for GK it will generally be an uphill battle against Eldar or Tau. Whatever army you are fielding, you better to go for the objectives and not for the enemy's throat. Both can outshoot you unless you manage to get into range of 24''.

eldar and tau have a very specific "range" you have to work with,

my GK will attack flanks, trying to be between 18-24" on a flank/exposed side, so that minimal units can shoot back, and they dont get 2x taps but I am still set up for the charge after,

I also have enough shots at 1500 pts -1850, with 20-30 pysbolt interceptors and 3 dks w flamers, to wipe out the entire squad + ethereal in one turn,

but you basically HAVE to take coteaz, and henchmen, to get troops + HQ cost down enough where you can properly load up on the intercepts + dks',

with eldar, you have to feint them, and get them to over commit.

usually they are doing WS or WK spam, or a combination of both, the WS will get their 6" + troops inside disembark 6" then fire 18" so 30" range on the guys inside with stuff that WRECKS the more eqpensive MEQ's in the gk list, and a good eldar player will know this,

so i tend to put my GK's at juuuust 25-30, so they have to over extend, put all their guys up as far forward as possible (hopefully bunching them up too) with a sacrifice squad, then jumping up, flaming/psybolting stuff to death, and disordered charging to lock everything in combat, and that very effectively deals with the contents of the WS's, and usually doesnt use the shunt move, which is normally needed to get behind the WS's and blow em up from behind.

not 100% GKS a wors codex now, so good luck

And if the Eldar don't overcommit? All they have to do is stay inside the WS one more round. Relying on a specific kind of enemy mistake is a bad plan.

Gitsmasher wrote:And yet you fail to understand the number one rule with dice. You mileage may vary! You cannot guarantee the outcome of every roll with math more than top scientist can explain why twins who are genetically similar have completely different personality's. Railhead hammerheads have never failed me! There is not tank my twin railhead hammerheads who I named Beavis and Butthead don't kill every turn they shoot. Conversely I have never had a Ion head EVER perform the way it should. I have yet to kill more than a 40pts of anything in the past 3 years. beavis and butthead both shoot a squad of marines roll 6 dice I roll 4 ones, and 2 threes. Statiscitcaly I shouldnt be rolling more ones than anything every other turn, but thats the way it goes. Why? Because its called CHANCE! And people who worship numbers and staticistcs should stick to card games because dice can be traitorous!

I'll leave you with a quote from Han Solo.

Never tell me the odds!

You know why this is silly? Because according to this philosophy a single lascannon is just as good as your longstrike railhead.

chnmmr wrote:Thanks for the info everyone. Again I repeat to the people who are 'amazed a Grey Knight player has to use tactics to win,' I joined the game a year ago during 6th ed and I've had to use tactics in every game I've played. I win some and lose some and no match has been a onesided match.

Against the new Tau and Eldar there is currently no competition. I am literally tabled by turn 3 in every game I've played and its incredibly demoralising. This is why I am asking for advice so I can amaze people with the concept of a grey knight player needing tactics to win :O

I have considered Red Hunters ubt not sure what I could use most of. I'm also under the impression that they need to be the main force and not my Grey Knights?

Happy to help if anything I have said has helped.

Then play on the ground then you cannot get tabled.

Yes Red Hunters would require you to play GK as allies and with an inquistor as your HQ. However you can take 1200 pts of GK with ease in an allies slot. 10 man Paladin squads are expensive! You could also just play SM allies as allies of convenience to get some grav guns into your list to help out with MCs.

On a side note. Dreadknights with porters and incinerators are really fantastic against Tau gunlines. Just make sure you have a LoS blocking terrain to hide behind.

With very little experience of playing as codex marines, what sort of things would be useful to grey knights? Been considering small devestator squads with lascanons, drop pod tacs, etc.

 ansacs wrote:
And yet you fail to understand the number one rule with dice. You mileage may vary! You cannot guarantee the outcome of every roll with math more than top scientist can explain why twins who are genetically similar have completely different personality's. Railhead hammerheads have never failed me! There is not tank my twin railhead hammerheads who I named Beavis and Butthead don't kill every turn they shoot. Conversely I have never had a Ion head EVER perform the way it should. I have yet to kill more than a 40pts of anything in the past 3 years. beavis and butthead both shoot a squad of marines roll 6 dice I roll 4 ones, and 2 threes. Statiscitcaly I shouldnt be rolling more ones than anything every other turn, but thats the way it goes. Why? Because its called CHANCE! And people who worship numbers and staticistcs should stick to card games because dice can be traitorous!

I'll leave you with a quote from Han Solo.

Never tell me the odds!

You know why this is silly? Because according to this philosophy a single lascannon is just as good as your longstrike railhead

I agree it's boom wolf, and Mattel who believe that land raiders can't be killed with a single at shot. Where did I say it's statistically improbable for a single shot to kill anything?

Martel732 wrote:
And if the Eldar don't overcommit? All they have to do is stay inside the WS one more round. Relying on a specific kind of enemy mistake is a bad plan.

they cant shoot if they move past 12, they cant shoot everything at full effect if they move past 6"...
so if they dont take the bait, the troops inside dont get to shoot at you, meaning you dont take casualties, d6+1 AP- shots isnt going to make or break marines or GK's, they need to get in close before they lose too many guys to use all the rending stuff,

iuf they havnt taken the bait, then you are betwwen 24=30 " and can now jump behind a WS with psybolts and put the hurt on, even a 5 man squad gets 10 shots, with 1/3 of those doing damage and 6's penning on the now sheildless WS, and every pen will keep that WS from shooting, and anything but a immobile/weap destroyed will also stop the passengers from effectively shooting.....

not to mention blowing it up severely hurts the troops inside... every turn they are inside is a turn they could be taking wounds/getting pinned/stunned/ect

also
they can camp the back the whole game for all I care, wont win the game if they dont get LB, or any objectives, if they dont take the bait, then you have run of the board, and they cannot back away forever...

you set yourself up, depending on the situation as its not a single strategy, its a METHOD of of adapting and using many strats withing the understanding the threat range of eldar.

if you do all this right, you are now in place to get into CC, because you have measured so as to box them in.... or to get behind them next turn, or forced them to turbo boost, again, giving up shooting, or to get out and and try to kill you, which is what you want... because you have the DK's behind with a 42" range torrent weapon (30" shunt, + 12)

its literally giving them no good options, which is the whole frikken point... and you can do this against WS spam, because they dont have enough troops to both spring your trap, AND hold the objectives afterwards

they either have to move too far to shoot, or get out, shoot up the suicide squad, and then get fried by the DK's waiting to jump in.

is it 100%? nope, could roll all 1's, but generally, I have had great success with this...

I play a LOT of eldar, and have for the past 3 editions, not just 6th...

it is ALL about the movement phase with the Eldar, even back then

gotta learn the dance, and if your army is not fast enough, or doesnt have at least a good solid core that is fast enough to "do the dance" you are SOL

edit, also, make sure you are using the LOS blocking terrain, if your table doesnt have any, thats a big issue, as the whole game is balanced around there being LOS blocking terrain...

maybe that all the tournies around here actually have at LEAST one peice of LOS blocking terrain on each table in tournies, perhaps that is why you think what I am doing is "unpossible"?

I don't see two LOS blocking pieces saving me much grief from Eldar, unless they were huge.

How do you jump 24" behind the eldar?

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see two LOS blocking pieces saving me much grief from Eldar, unless they were huge.

How do you jump 24" behind the eldar?

interceptors man... thats what you are missing from the equation, they and the dk's get one move 30' and still fire, where as the WS can only move 12" and still fire.

the stuff is big enough to hide 10-20 guys out of LOS for a turn usually, not big enough to hid MC's, but it makes a difference when its not just one big open feild of LOS.