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Gitsmasher wrote:I agree it's boom wolf, and Mattel who believe that land raiders can't be killed with a single at shot. Where did I say it's statistically improbable for a single shot to kill anything?

No, just no. Do not even try to misqoute me as agreeing with that. I said;

You know why this is silly? Because according to this philosophy a single lascannon is just as good as your longstrike railhead

under a quote of your

...Han Solo...

My question specifically is that if the statistics don't matter why do you bother taking longstrike versus just taking a regular railhead, or lets be even more cost effective and take 4 seeker missiles so you can glance the tank to death. The statistics don't matter so if it can happen why are you trying to stack the odds?

just like lots of people are haveing a hard time dealing with tau/eldars 24-30" threat radius,

thats how hard it is to deal with a 54" threat radius from GK interceptors, or 42" from DK's

Do interceptors not scatter?

Martel732 wrote:
Do interceptors not scatter?

Not while Shunting.


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Interceptors always need Psybolt Ammo too...and forget most any other upgrade...maybe psycannons.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

I agree it's boom wolf, and Mattel who believe that land raiders can't be killed with a single at shot. Where did I say it's statistically improbable for a single shot to kill anything?

Can't? we didn't say that.
Unlikely? yes. highly unlikely.
And if you somehow manage to get it done on a regular basis-your dice are crooked beyond reasoning.

Because by your insane troll logic, lasguns are effective against nurgle terminators, as it MIGHT have a 6 to wound and they MIGHT have a 1 on save.
Sure, it CAN happen, but you are not supposed to rely on it.

 ansacs wrote:
[
My question specifically is that if the statistics don't matter why do you bother taking longstrike versus just taking a regular railhead, or lets be even more cost effective and take 4 seeker missiles so you can glance the tank to death. The statistics don't matter so if it can happen why are you trying to stack the odds?

Your question is valid and I will answer it. There was a point in time when I would math hammer units in my army to min/max everything. I lived and died by statistical averages.

Why did I change my mind and stop believing in stats averages as laws when it comes to dice rolls? Because a good friend of mine sat me down and explained to me that not all dice are equal and when it comes down too it, dice are down right traitorous. It matters not that you spent a bunch of money "precision" dice, if you rolled snake eyes, you roll snake eyes and that's it! No amount of mathematics could have changed the outcome. You just failed 2-2+ saves, or you move your shoe 2 spaces to land on go to jail. And something most mathtards as I call them fail to take into account are the dice themselves.

Not all dice roll statistical averages and its been proven that some dice (gw 12mm) roll more ones than they should due to the manufacturing process. Something else that affects statistical averages is the terrain being rolled on, that is something else mathtards don't take into account. The very terrian you roll on could mean the difference on a statistical level between average and not average. Also the condition of the dice used affects your rolls as well. These are valid variables because math hammer is mostly done in a vacuum, and do not take those variables into consideration.

The reason I use long strike is one. I love the way the model looks on top of my hammerhead that I named butthead, and two. He gives me a good feeling when he is used


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 BoomWolf wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

I agree it's boom wolf, and Mattel who believe that land raiders can't be killed with a single at shot. Where did I say it's statistically improbable for a single shot to kill anything?

Can't? we didn't say that.
Unlikely? yes. highly unlikely.
And if you somehow manage to get it done on a regular basis-your dice are crooked beyond reasoning.

Because by your insane troll logic, lasguns are effective against nurgle terminators, as it MIGHT have a 6 to wound and they MIGHT have a 1 on save.
Sure, it CAN happen, but you are not supposed to rely on it.

Sounds like we agree you can kill a land raider with one shot . I wish my ion heads would do more than get hot, but hey for me that's all they do.

Of course what happens what happens and statistics are only a guideline for what can be expected. Lets say we examine a weapon that penetrates and explodes a vehicle on a 2+ versus one that penetrates and explodes a vehicle on a 6+ . Even if the dice over the course of a hundred games come up 40 1's, 10 2's, 10 3's, 10 4's, 10 5's, and 20 6's then the 2+ weapon is worth 3 times the value as weapon 1. What you are doing is accusing others of a appeal to probability logical fallacy and then committing an argument from ignorance fallacy.

It can clearly be seen that even you don't truly believe your arguement as you are taking hammer heads for anti tank rather than depending entirely on seeker missiles. Either you are purposefully trolling or are arguing from a position of misinformation.

The only part I do agree with is that you cannot just look at statistics but rather you must look at whether you are capable of utilizing a unit to maximize what it can do which is predicted by the maximum and minimum of the gaussian distribution of it's probabilities where the mean is the expected outcome in the majority of situations.

This is based off your dice being balanced right?

Sigh.
You seem to fail to grasp the fact the dice being unbalanced does not even matter, AT ALL.
Because ALL the dice are a bit unbalance, but not in a dramatic way, nor do you know what kind of tilt each dice has, nor you use the same dice over an over, you MUST assume every side of the dice will come up 1/6 times, because on the average, of all dice, that is what would happen.
If you assume each dice is tilted to begin with, you can make any argument you want and make it be viable, form vespid being OP to the riptide being overcosted. both are false, but both CAN be proven once you assume unbalanced dice.

God, its like you lack basic elementary education about what are statistics and how they work.
Thinking off, even you avatar is doing a trollface, so I'll assume you are trolling from now on.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sigh.
You seem to fail to grasp the fact the dice being unbalanced does not even matter, AT ALL.
Because ALL the dice are a bit unbalance, but not in a dramatic way, nor do you know what kind of tilt each dice has, nor you use the same dice over an over, you MUST assume every side of the dice will come up 1/6 times, because on the average, of all dice, that is what would happen.
If you assume each dice is tilted to begin with, you can make any argument you want and make it be viable, form vespid being OP to the riptide being overcosted. both are false, but both CAN be proven once you assume unbalanced dice.

God, its like you lack basic elementary education about what are statistics and how they work.

Boom it was established that we both agree on the fact that you can indeed no matter how improbable it is that you can destroy a land raider with a single shot.

Why are you still arguing?

Just because it *can* happen doesn't mean you should rely on it happening.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
This is based off your dice being balanced right?

So you are saying that you have dice which roll better than usual due to extended use.

Does that mean that you are knowingly using altered dice?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Thinking off, even you avatar is doing a trollface, so I'll assume you are trolling from now on.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Thankfully the statistics are also in favour of him eventually growing up and realizing that trolling an Internet forum is not only rather pointless but also quite sad.

On topic, I have seen several people have success with double or triple Dreadknight rushes. I know the OP mentioned having used them before but shunting three of them into a Tau player's face (especially with incinerators to take care of pathfinders/etc.) definitely puts them severely on the defensive. Granted, they will probably take one or two of them down with massed fire but that leaves the rest of your army unmolested and you'll potentially have an MC or two in melee in the back field next turn.

Others may have had better luck with alternate tactics but I'm quite partial to that one. The Red Hunters allied situation does make for some rather excellent combinations, however, and I think I might explore that avenue as well.

Best of luck!

DoW

I don't mind Land Raiders. 3+ to hit, 4+ to glance, I just don't find them that hard to take out.

I hear you brother!

I've also had a great deal of trouble with pure GK's against TAU and Eldar, to the point where I have only won 1 game against Eldar with pure GK's and none against TAU (and both of my regular opponents are Eldar and TAU!) Now before you think I am a muppet gamer with no tactical ability, I generally win 80+% of my games outside of these 2 troublesome armies! I have found our biggest weakness is the short supply of affordable long range high S AP2 firepower.

Further to this problem though is that I think GK's really need to tailor against Eldar or TAU as we struggle to do both with a single generic list. This of course, is based off generic Eldar/TAU lists. Eldar mostly WS spam mech and TAU being mostly Riptide foot.

I'm sorry to say but the best answer I can find and can suggest is Allies. With allies I am competitive and it's 50/50 against both as opposed to pure GK's and conceding/playing on despite no chance by turn 3-4.

Having said the above I found a couple of GK unit combos that are usually effective and versatile against both, these are:

1. ADL with Icarus Cannon, Coteaz (or could use a libby if no servitors), Henchmen with 2-4 x Crusaders, 4-6 x Jokaero's, 0-3xServitors (PC or MM) and some Acolyte cannon fodder. This unit prays for Coteaz/Libby to get perfect timing on the Divination table. Basically this dominates against WS spam as it ignores Cover with 5-7 TL-LC's. It also does very well against Riptides/Suits/Broadsides. You can always run 2 of these units with Coteaz and a Libby to increase the chances of Perfect Timing and/or weight of LC fire.

2. Storm Raven with DCAs and 1-3 Crusaders inside. Against Eldar your 1 Raven can match his 1-2 x CH if a) you come on second and b) he doesn't spread them thanks to POTMS. Also at a pinch you can hover, pick on a wounded WS and assault the troops inside with your DCA's (situational at best though). Against TAU this is just a good anti-anything unit, fly on, jink the interceptors, next turn hover, shoot and assault (using the Crusaders as the bullet magnets at the front for the charge).

Now onto the successes I've had with Allies:

I've found Necrons are a great ally against Eldar and IG are great against TAU.

Mech Eldar (WS/Prism Spam): Necrons are good because they can give us 2 things we lack: The first is cheap troop mobility in warriors and NS and the second is cheap bulk, reliable S7 firepower to take down WS. I suggest looking into a basic Allied component of Overlord/DLord (to suit), 2x5 Warriors in NS and an ABarge. This comes in around the early-mid 500pts pending HQ and is excellent. You could even add a couple of Stormteks in your warrior squad for backup WS killing.

Foot TAU (Riptides and FW behind an ADL): IG are good because they give us something else we don't have: Long range AP4 ignores cover to take out their pesky FW/Pathfinders hiding behind an ADL. Get 2-3 Leman Russ Eradicators in a Squadron and sit back 36" and kill their foot. Use Strike Squad(s) around the Russes to provide DS Crisis Suit protection and throw a couple of NDKs with Teleporters and Flamers at them to keep the Riptides busy (or kill the HH if he has them or more troops if he doesn't). That gives the TAU player a conundrum, does he ignore the Russes to deal with the immediate threat of the NDKs or does he go after the NDKs and give the Russes another turn or two of Large Blast S6 AP4 Ignores cover shooting? Throw in Coteaz with his Henchmen unit as above and a Strike Squad or two around the Russes and his suits will not be able to DS close enough to take them out with Fusion.

This is just what I have found am I am sure there are plenty of smarter people with better ideas than the above. Good luck!