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 timetowaste85 wrote:
Um...how has nobody said Lucius? He gets killed, the person who kills him should test to resist being removed as a casualty and having Lucius replace him. Each turn.

This, all over the place, this.

regarding Lucis ,re-read the fluff,"over the next few weeks....the artifcaer armor of commander Cyrius began to change..... soon Lucis emerged completely"

so with that in mind his fluff works with his rules. it's not an instant transformation, but a slow one. so in a single table top game there's no reason for him not to be "mortal" because he won't emerge dureing the course of the fight.

 Rivet wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Um...how has nobody said Lucius? He gets killed, the person who kills him should test to resist being removed as a casualty and having Lucius replace him. Each turn.

This, all over the place, this.

If I'm not mistaken, the fluff uses the term "slowly" for this transformation. I don't have the codex handy, but I don't think it implies that it happens over the course of minutes or hours, rather days or weeks. But that's my take on it.

EDIT: ninja'd

 ductvader wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:

I would argue that most characters in the game actually do not live up to their hype, but that's probably for balance purposes haha. There are always exceptions though

Some do though.

Grey Knights in particular have some that shine as they should...when they get to combat.

Draigo, Stern, Coteaz, Crowe, Mordrak, Karamazov, and Thawn all feel like they should for their power levels.


Tyranids have some good ones too

Swarmy, Death, Doom, and the Parasite are all about what they should be.

I noted that there are always exceptions Most of the super beatstick close-combat guys are representative of their fluff. I feel that a lot of the 'cool' HQs are not that good though, because it's harder to represent their powers on the tabletop and have it still be fair. A master tactician like Creed has decent rules, but in all honesty, his rule should be something like "Creed knows when to best engage an enemy. Your opponent must play with 500 less points this game" etc. This would represent his tactical genius better, but be completely stupid in the actual game haha.

In fact, I feel that the characters that have the most flavor and are best represented are the DIY heroes such as custom SM captains etc. Many of them are actually better than some Chapter Masters etc because they can take unrestricted gear etc. Just my thoughts though

Kaptin Badrukk to a certain extent. He doesn't really demonstrate anything from the fluff in being a savvy pirate captain who has outrageous amounts of teef and loot from his many travels. His Flash Gitz aren't any more blinged out or upgraded in any way with special rules to reflect his experience nor does he have anything besides an assault 3 plasma gun and 3+ armour save. All of which of course is incredibly overpriced for what you get.

Other than that probably the Culexus Assassin given that his current edition rules are absolutely pitiful from an anti-psyker POV with no increased ability to resist psychic powers nor negate them despite being a bloody Pariah for Throne's sake. Even his method of killing them is woefully underpowered and unreliable thanks to LoS and not being able to soul drain them like his previous incarnation.

 conker249 wrote:
The decapitator from dark eldar is my first thought.

Amen to this. Thoroughly useless as it stands. And I don't say that lightly.

Belial from the dark angels. I would make his sword ap2 and give him EW Instead of sammy

sangheili wrote:
Belial from the dark angels. I would make his sword ap2 and give him EW Instead of sammy

Agree. Sammy is T5 3+ 4++ and fast with hit and run. He's good on the survivable part of things. Belial is not. Sadly, I think Azrael is the worst of them all. He has a str6 sword... woohoo? Belial's always wounds on a 2+ and Sammael's is ap2. Even though he is the chapter master he debatably has the worst sword of the lot. Makes no sense. Give EW to the guy who can actually be instant killed by a power fist, not the T5 guy who is very rarely going to be getting in an instant death situation... sigh...

 VardenV2 wrote:

sangheili wrote:
Belial from the dark angels. I would make his sword ap2 and give him EW Instead of sammy

Agree. Sammy is T5 3+ 4++ and fast with hit and run. He's good on the survivable part of things. Belial is not. Sadly, I think Azrael is the worst of them all. He has a str6 sword... woohoo? Belial's always wounds on a 2+ and Sammael's is ap2. Even though he is the chapter master he debatably has the worst sword of the lot. Makes no sense. Give EW to the guy who can actually be instant killed by a power fist, not the T5 guy who is very rarely going to be getting in an instant death situation... sigh...

Exactly. But it is what it is. Him not having EW is the reason I stopped using him. He used to always be my warlord. Now I just take azrael for 25 pts more

I've only been playing since march of this year but I read that azrael used to be EW on their last codex is it true? Cuz I would take EW on him too lol

 ductvader wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:

I would argue that most characters in the game actually do not live up to their hype, but that's probably for balance purposes haha. There are always exceptions though

Some do though.

Grey Knights in particular have some that shine as they should...when they get to combat.

Draigo, Stern, Coteaz, Crowe, Mordrak, Karamazov, and Thawn all feel like they should for their power levels.


Tyranids have some good ones too

Swarmy, Death, Doom, and the Parasite are all about what they should be.

I have to disagree on Swarm Lord. He is supposed to be the pinnacle of a command creature in the Tyranid army, capable enough in combat to down almost any threat...But he is only S6, 4 attacks, 2+ with a 4++ in melee. Honeslty, if they just give him a better invulnerable, a few more attacks, then a slew of new abilities that can buff your other bugs I think he would be spot on.

Death Leaper is okay...I would like to see him have an ability to force challenges. But as it is a 5th codex I think that is forgivable.

Parasite is all kinds of bad in rules but you are right, he is fairly fitting to the fluff.

Doom is right on with the fluff, he can eat an entire army by himself. Watch for him to get nerfed for the 6th codex. I am a Tyranid player and this guy is WAAAAAAAAAY OP.

So...I guess you are right, Tyranids do have it pretty good except OOE and Swarmy, they both suck compared to fluff.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Skulltaker also greatly matches his fluff (4th Ed book, not sure on 6th). Rending/instant death on a 4+? Oh yeah. He's the guy who gives carnifexes nightmares.

He doesn't Rend anymore, just has AP3. He's still got the chance to ID, but only on a 6. He also always has to challenge, which isn't always a bad thing because of I9. He's also the only thing in the codex that has EW without psychic powers.

All of them. I don't like special characters in normal games of 40k.

I mean, Marneus Calgar just got killed by a grot. That's going to a be strange, fluff wise.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Phoenix Lords: They are only marginally better, or not better at all, than current Chapter Masters....which gives a very low value to these warriors compared to what their actual abilities should be. They should be far more capable than Chapter Masters.

They would be near impossible to balance without a massive point increase, if given stats identical to their fluff... :/ cool idea, but I dont know how they can really be fixed all that well without further breaking the codex.

Yes, I agree that points would need increased heavily. But the question was just fluff versus tabletop. :-)

@Lobukia - They die in the fluff, I wouldn't say 'all the time'....could you back that up with facts? Have they died in recent history more than Chapter Masters? No, didn't think so. Also, they are in fluff dying because they only show up when desperately needed, whereas Chapter Masters show up for many more 'less important' battles where there is far less danger.

I've read most of the BL books out there. 3 PL have shown up, 2 have died. Karandras and Jain Zar.... both time to marines (granted, one was one of the coolest CSM ever, but still). My first army and love was Eldar. I could see maybe a minor boost in their stats, but with marines so nerfed from fluff to game stats, I can't really see the Phoenix Lords being that far off the pace set aside between fluff awesome and TT less more so. Now what would be cool would be a separate entry in an Apoc book for a boosted Phoenix Lord stat line and cost for those type of games...

While not a fluffy special character, I really think SM dreads need some serious help... but that ship has already sailed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, Eldrad and Ahriman could use some better stats too IMO

Any Ctan.

First of all no one is EVER as good as their main fluff book....lets face it, all tau should be BS10 and space marines are worth 500 points each if they matched their depictions in games.

I am ok with some...abstractions, but some models are not EVEN CLOSE....

The ctan are so far off it is shameful.

Dante. That is all. I'm sure there are many, many others, but this one stick in my craw.

I agree Dante isn't nearly what he should be. He needs eternal warrior at least. I'd also give him an axe that hits at initiative.
Hopefully, he'll get updated to 6th ed at some point soon.

The phoenix lords should be able to lead an aspect squad with an exarch and if they die - remove the exarch and bring the phoenix lord back with one wound. You know, to give them an incentive to lead aspect warriors as atm all phoenix lords are much better leading wraithguard... :/
And you might see more aspect squads than just fire dragons in an army.

Then theres all the NL, IW, WB and AL special characters...
oh wait.

fate weaver i would imagine would fight a battle that could be forseen as losing if it helped in a ultirier situation, ie the battle kills x person who would have done something which causes x and y to happen??

The decapitator and mandrakes in general don't fit their fluff. They are deamons from the shadow, should be far more sinister and sneaky

I also would like to see apocalypse versions of the phoenix lords (or maybe lords of war for heresy games like the primarchs) so that they could be what they are supposed to be.

Also Lucius. They should drop the fluff about him regenerating over weeks and have it introduced as a game mechanic. Kind of like an evil reverse version of celestine or thawn.

That would rock!

 rohansoldier wrote:

Also Lucius. They should drop the fluff about him regenerating over weeks and have it introduced as a game mechanic. Kind of like an evil reverse version of celestine or thawn.

That would rock!

You've got that the wrong way round, it goes chaos gets the toy and then the loyalists get it better

davethepak wrote:
Any Ctan.

First of all no one is EVER as good as their main fluff book....lets face it, all tau should be BS10 and space marines are worth 500 points each if they matched their depictions in games.

I am ok with some...abstractions, but some models are not EVEN CLOSE....

The ctan are so far off it is shameful.

Yeah....i made some Homebrew rules for C'tan to try and make them playable :/
They're so bad its depressing.