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knas ser wrote:


Nazism and catholicism are the biggest influences on the IoM, imo..

I dunno, I'd put Rome above Nazism. We've got an Emperor, Legions (or used to) and Latin everywhere. There's probably other things too, but they escape me at present.

Eldar are a mix of Celtic, Chinese, Indian, Egyptian, a bit of Japanese and Byzantine cultures with Melniborneans from the fantasy Elric books thrown in too.

Tau are based off western mechs that are based on the Japanese designs, with some of RIFTS (can't remember the race) thrown in too. Some of the designs in the Anime Metal Armour Dragonar look like a Firewarrior.

 Troike wrote:

knas ser wrote:


Nazism and catholicism are the biggest influences on the IoM, imo..

I dunno, I'd put Rome above Nazism. We've got an Emperor, Legions (or used to) and Latin everywhere. There's probably other things too, but they escape me at present.

Lots of it do seems semi-roman, but the Inquisition are some sort of weird amalgam of the Spanish Inquisition and Space-Nazis.

Totalitarianism, not Nazism. Nazism is particular to a specific period of time and a specific national identity.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Troike wrote:

knas ser wrote:


Nazism and catholicism are the biggest influences on the IoM, imo..

I dunno, I'd put Rome above Nazism. We've got an Emperor, Legions (or used to) and Latin everywhere. There's probably other things too, but they escape me at present.

Lots of it do seems semi-roman, but the Inquisition are some sort of weird amalgam of the Spanish Inquisition and Space-Nazis.

There are eagles, but then every militaristic culture seems to use those. And there's the odd Roman term such as Legion (though the legions came later on in WH40K lore, it was Chapters for quite a long time) and it's called an Empire. But Empire / Emperor is not exclusive to Romans. But really I don't see a lot more than that. The architecture and style of the Empire has only occasional Classical elements. Stylistically, the IoM is Baroque more than anything. The ships, the cathedrals, most of it. Now Baroque is Italian (originally) but it is not Roman. In the sense that the IoM is roman, it is far more Holy Roman Empire than it is Roman Empire. And when people talk about "the Roman Empire" they mean the latter.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Totalitarianism, not Nazism. Nazism is particular to a specific period of time and a specific national identity.

No, I know the difference. I said Nazism because I was specifically referring to Nazism. I'm not trying to describe the IoM in terms of political freedoms, but in terms of the influences that went into the background. From Nazism, it draws on core beliefs of racial purity (do not suffer the mutant to live, purge the alien, etc.) and imagery - all those pictures of Space Marines lined up where the artist has consciously copied the Nuremberg Rally of 1993, the Nazis drew on a lot of Roman imagery such as the eagles, the "Thousand Year Rule", and more. "Totalitarianism" can cover anything up to and including Mao's China.

Obviously there are many distinct elements that the IoM draws on (Kafka's bureaucracies could be an influence), but when I say Nazi beliefs and imagery feed into it as one of the larger influences, I do mean them specifically.

Though perhaps we should move away from that. It's not a pleasant subject and the last thing I want to do is create the impression that I think the writers are Nazis smuggling in propaganda (because obviously I don't). I'm just saying it's a very clear influence.

 Psienesis wrote:
Totalitarianism, not Nazism. Nazism is particular to a specific period of time and a specific national identity.

I know, I just like to think of the emperor as space-hitler.
In reality, I mostly say that because Nazi Germany and the IOM both are religiously racist (as in really devoted, not actual religion), excessively nationalist, and imperialistic. There is also a lot of comparison with the uniforms, and being horrible people.

Racial purity, as we would view in in the modern era, pre-dates Nazism by a good six hundred years. Antisemitism did not start (or end) with Hitler. There's also the fact that the mutant and the alien aren't human. There's nothing in the Imperium stopping someone from Planet A from breeding from someone from Planet B (apart from travel difficulties) so long as Planet B is also human.

all those pictures of Space Marines lined up where the artist has consciously copied the Nuremberg Rally of 1993

o.0

You mean the rally of 1936?

You know who else stood in huge ranks of soldiers to hear political speeches? The Roman Legions. American soldiers of the Civil War. American soldiers right now, today. Gathering elements of a military together for parade, d&c, awards, speeches, memorials, unit honors, etc etc etc is not a uniquely Nazi practice... and ten thousand people in uniform are all going to look basically like that. We even still carry unit colors.

Yes, Totalitarianism is a rather broad label. You know what's interesting? Totalitarian states are almost indistinguishable from one another, regardless of the political path they take to get there. Far Left, Far Right, doesn't matter. In practice, there's not much of a difference between Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union.

 Psienesis wrote:
Racial purity, as we would view in in the modern era, pre-dates Nazism by a good six hundred years. Antisemitism did not start (or end) with Hitler. There's also the fact that the mutant and the alien aren't human. There's nothing in the Imperium stopping someone from Planet A from breeding from someone from Planet B (apart from travel difficulties) so long as Planet B is also human.

Not sure what you're trying to argue but if it's that I was incorrect to use Nazism rather than Totalitarianism, the above does not help your case. It is quite possible to have totalitarianism without an overt (or even an implicit) racial agenda. Nazism however had it as a core belief. Nor did anything I say depend on racism being exclusive to Nazism and I would rather hope that you don't think me stupid enough to believe that it is. I said that the IoM was partly inspired by Nazism. You attempted to correct me and say I meant Totalitarianism. I said I didn't (and I really ought to know what I meant being the one who said it) and now you appear to be arguing that elements I identified didn't come from Nazism but came from elsewhere. I don't see evidence of that. Of course Nazism didn't create every element of itself out of whole cloth. However, there a strong collections and themes it gathers together which make it a thing in and of itself due to the way elements are combined. And we see those same combinations echoed in the IoM both in terms of the practices of the IoM and in the artwork and style it is portrayed with. And given that Nazism is a recent example that has left many scars on us as a culture, I think it reasonable to say when you see many elements of it mirrored or parodied in a modern work, that it is an influence.

 Psienesis wrote:

all those pictures of Space Marines lined up where the artist has consciously copied the Nuremberg Rally of 1993

o.0

You mean the rally of 1936?

No. I mean 1933. I made a typo, obviously. There were a series of Nazi rallies at Nuremberg over a number of years. 1933 is one of the iconic ones that are imprinted in many people's mental images of Nazism. The other most iconic one would be 1934:



Now you've got me posting pictures of Nazi rallies and I said I wanted to move on from this, but the influence is obvious to me. I do not know why you keep trying to correct what I say telling me I mean one thing when I have quite deliberately said another.

 Psienesis wrote:
You know who else stood in huge ranks of soldiers to hear political speeches? The Roman Legions. American soldiers of the Civil War. American soldiers right now, today. Gathering elements of a military together for parade, d&c, awards, speeches, memorials, unit honors, etc etc etc is not a uniquely Nazi practice... and ten thousand people in uniform are all going to look basically like that. We even still carry unit colors.

Ah, sarcasm - most sophisticated of debating techniques. (That was sarcasm, btw. ). Yes, certainly, American soldiers stood in lines and listened to speeches. Now open your rule book at pg. 178 in the background section on the Empire and tell me if they look like American Soldiers to you? Or something else. I was actually hoping to find you an early picture of Space Marines all lined up in a shot like the Nuremberg Rally (1933) but I don't recall which book it is in and I can't find it online with a quick search. It's one of the older ones. At any rate, obviously other soldiers stand in line. As I pointed out earlier, there's a large collection of elements that are common to Nazism and they are all echoed in the IoM. It's an issue of combination and the fact that, for people of my age and those who developed the original WH40K setting, Nazism is THE big parallel. There's no way that the creators of this put it all together and didn't realise how much it echoed that, weren't influenced by that. None of them are that dumb. I genuinely don't understand why you are getting so dogmatic here in refusing to countenance it. Even if you genuinely don't see it, even after having multiple parallels pointed out, you're going beyond saying that you're not convinced and trying to argue that it actually isn't.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, Totalitarianism is a rather broad label. You know what's interesting? Totalitarian states are almost indistinguishable from one another, regardless of the political path they take to get there. Far Left, Far Right, doesn't matter. In practice, there's not much of a difference between Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union.

That's utterly absurd. Mao's china is identical to Nazi Germany is identical to late Saddam era Iraq is identical to Zimbabwe is identical to Qatar? Even aside from a long list of practical and meaningful differences, the context of the discussion - which I was explicit about - was influence on the development of the IoM background and imagery. Do you look at those lines of Space Marines or the Imperial Palace and think: "Hmmm - Zimbabwe with a dash of Chairman Mao"? Really? They're all the same in this context? No. But you can look at it and see a lot of imagery and elements that make you think of Nazism. I said Nazism originally. You tried to correct me to Totalitarianism. I pointed out that no, I meant Nazism, and you're still at it trying to tell me I meant Totalitarianism. I do not. Eugenics, purging of the "impure", large rallies of motionless, disciplined soldiers stretching into the distance. If I'd meant to say something that encompassed Gadaffi's militias or Zimbabwean riot police putting down a protest, that's what I'd have said. Why do you try to argue "Totalitarians states are almost indistinguishable from one another"? That's an incredibly ignorant and superficial thing to say.

Why do you object to my saying Nazi ideology and imagery is an influence on IoM. It's not whether you can find some of the same stuff elsewhere. It's when you find the same combinations and acknowledge that this is by very far the most present image of these elements in modern collective culture.


EDIT: Just to add another influence which came in later on in the development of the background: The Imperial Guard are obviously very influenced by Russian troops in First and Second World War. Both in the "throw bodies at them" philosophy and the tanks, uniforms and elements such as commissars. Another clear influence, though one that was added some time after the original Rogue Trader-era.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Starcraft.

*ducks*

I was hoping id get through this without a starcraft comment... grrrrr!
You know some people actually credit starcraft for influencing 40k, not the other way around! "Damn those pesky kids!"

Poly Ranger wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Starcraft.

*ducks*

I was hoping id get through this without a starcraft comment... grrrrr!
You know some people actually credit starcraft for influencing 40k, not the other way around! "Damn those pesky kids!"

Ignoring that both are inspired by Heinlein.

knas ser wrote:


Not sure what you're trying to argue but if it's that I was incorrect to use Nazism rather than Totalitarianism..

*snip*

Well, in the first part, you're responding to something that wasn't directed at you but, secondly...

When I see the pics of the Legions in the gathering, no, I don't think Nuremburg, I don't think Nazis. I think Roman Legions. It's probably the laurels on some of the Legion's flags, and the fact that it's called "the Imperium".

And, yes, if you want to talk scales, there is very little difference between the Totalitarian states of Germany and the Soviet Union, excepting that Stalin was a whole lot better at killing a fethload of (his own) people, and Chairman Mao was arguably better at it than Stalin! What the Nazis had going for them was being the best-dressed of 20th century Totalitarian regimes, and having been involved in a relatively short war with most of the rest of the Western world. Also, a lot of post-war media has created a mythology around WW2, hence its enduring nature in the psyche of people now nearly seventy years after its end.

... and, yes, Totalitarian regimes have some sort of "outsider" as a threat to the safety and security of the state/people to focus attention on. This was as true in Orwell's 1984 as it was in Mao's China. Or Hussein's Iraq. I am trying to think of a totalitarian regime that did not have some sort of "outsider" scapegoat-element, but not coming up with one.

Many 40k races are based on the WHFB races.

Orks-Orcs and Goblins
Eldar-High Elves
Dark Eldar-Dark Elves
Exodites-Wood Elves
Necrons-Tomb Kings
Chaos Space Marines-Warriors of Chaos
Deamons-Deamons

And there is probably a lot more.
Of course most 40k factions have diverged quite a lot from their fantasy counterparts since the beginning of 40k.
Besides WHFB there are of course lots of other influences. Some, such as the Space Wolves are very obvious, others are more subtle.
The Imperium is basically a hideous Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire/Medieval Catholic Church/USSR/Nazi Germany/George Orwell's 1984 and 'whatever nasty dystopian stuff you can imagine' hybrid

Ugh... I don't like threads like these. I feel sullied by them somehow. I think that when people try and compare good works of art to it's inspiration it often comes off negatively.

Also, knowing that there are people who have religious beliefs and people who do not, this forum in particular seems to have a lot of people who adamantly hate religion. I'll never understand it and it just ... well it hurts my soul on some level so I just try not to address it. 40k being compared to it just irks me.



However, now that my little diatribe has ended I would like to stress my displeasure about the way Grey Knights have been referenced so far.

The first few posts seemed to liken them to Templars or Warrior Monks and Holy Orders. While this is all subjective and people can think whatever they want... I would like to point out that this is also the basis for the Space Marines. I read in one of the earlier posts that someone likened the Space Marines to the roman legions... that struck a Nerv. Mostly because they are kind of right... well, they are now anyway.

I've played 40k for a long time and I can generally say that I like most of it. I like some of the newer stuff a lot less, but that's natural right? squeezing extra pieces into a finished puzzle tends to make things look a little off. Anyway. The Space Marines have their roots (genetically augmented human experiments in power suits of armor) in various sci-fi works from a number of authors. Heinlein is a common example. But what made the Space Marines unique - or at least not just GW shadows of Starship Troopers, was that rather than them being your typical jarhead-in-space with larger than life sci-fi guns, they were basically monastic warrior monks. The older Core Rule Books were better at illustrating that, and the Dark Angels are probably the paragon of that behavior in today's 40k. But really, that's how they all used to be portrayed. This is why they have fortress monastaries, and chaplains. They are a brotherhood of monks, utterly devoted to the "cult of the Emperor".

Anyway... I digress. the point is, they are basically what everyone seems to associate with the Grey Knights.

Before Matt Ward has is kinky way with them, the GK were cool. Now they are so... dense with emo-self-contradiction that they are basically just a wild caricature of the Inquisition as if all of the 40k universe were 15th century Spain.

Grey Knights are, more specifically, modeled after the real-world Knights-Templar... as well as the legends, myths, stories and outright lies that were told about them.

The Grey Knights are holy warriors charged with the destruction of the daemonic... and they will use the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics to ensure that is done.

Just a small but important detail. 40k doesn't resort to proven historical fact as much as it does to myth, ill-informed speculation, propaganda, self-image and historical distortion, and the factions reflect this.

 Psienesis wrote:

knas ser wrote:


Not sure what you're trying to argue but if it's that I was incorrect to use Nazism rather than Totalitarianism..

*snip*

Well, in the first part, you're responding to something that wasn't directed at you but, secondly...

I was the one that raised Nazism as an influence. You didn't quote anyone in your reply and just said Totalitarianism, not Nazis. It seemed you were replying to me and correcting me. My apologies for confusion then, I hope at least you can see why I thought you were talking to me.

Yes, totalitarian regimes usually have an Other to focus discontent on. But there's something particularly reminiscent of Nazism with the Imperium's do it suffer a mutant to live, eugenics to create a superior race, a lot of the imagery that the Nazis shared with the Roman Empire. You may personally not have had that reaction when you saw it (and note the terminology if Legions came much later on in the fluff), but I still do nit see your string objections. Not only is Nazism the closest of the Totalitarian regimes you might draw on for inspiration, but it is also the most iconic to Western minds of my generation which I share with the original creators. The parallels of what they were writing would be unmissable to the writers. And it remains absurd to characterise all totalitarian regimes as the same. You cannot look at the Imperium and say: 'oh, looks like they drew on Gadaffi's Lybia or Cambodia in the nineteen-seventies'. You can look and be very much reminded of 'Nazism'. Again, I do not understand why you are so set against this being an influence when there are such striking parallels of both style and practice.


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 En Excelsis wrote:
Ugh... I don't like threads like these. I feel sullied by them somehow. I think that when people try and compare good works of art to it's inspiration it often comes off negatively.

Also, knowing that there are people who have religious beliefs and people who do not, this forum in particular seems to have a lot of people who adamantly hate religion. I'll never understand it and it just ... well it hurts my soul on some level so I just try not to address it. 40k being compared to it just irks me.

Just to emphasize, although I do think Catholicism was drawn on quite heavily for the IoM, I am in no way being critical of Catholics. One of my best friends is Catholic and his beliefs are a big part of what drives him to be such a positive and supportive guy. WH40K looks at everything through the darkest possible glass. Hey - they even turned football hooligans into everyone's most loveable race!

 Psienesis wrote:
The Grey Knights are holy warriors charged with the destruction of the daemonic... and they will use the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics to ensure that is done.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. See, this is post Matt Ward fluff. Pre-Matt Ward fluff meant that the Grey Knights were the purest of the Imperium, the most clean and the most badass of all, but also the fewest in number of all the Imperium's militant forces. For example in the old fluff they flat out refused to ally themselves with Radical Inquisitors, and only Puritan Inquisitors could work with them.

Post Mat Ward fluff has made them into the wet dream of any radical inquisitor, having bound daemon heads cackling in their feast hall, alien weapons and all sorts of other xeno trinkets amidst their collection, killing sisters of battle or anyone who "witness" what they do and they have basically devolved into social Pariahs who have their own agenda with the extermination of Chaos rather than being the most stalwart agents of the Imperium.

In fact, they have gained so much separation from the body of the Inquisition that post Ward fluff almost makes them out to be a Space Marine chapter in its own right.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Grey Knights are holy warriors charged with the destruction of the daemonic... and they will use the vilest of sorceries and the blackest of magics to ensure that is done.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. See, this is post Matt Ward fluff.

But it's still the current fluff, so he is technically correct.

well we were talking about the origins and influences of the different races. I.e. Mid 1980s to most of the late 2000s ~25 years of background. Thats why the whole tomb kings in spess was also not really associated with Necrons up until recently when GW shoved that imagery down our throats, earlier the only connection they have were the pyramidal structures on necron tomb worlds, and the whole tomb-undead thing.

 Sir Arun wrote:
well we were talking about the origins and influences of the different races. I.e. Mid 1980s to most of the late 2000s ~25 years of background.

You didn't make any such stipulation in your OP. And, really, it seems needlessly limiting to impose such a restriction. Some people might like newer fluff over older fluff.

By all means, discuss the pre-Ward GKs and their influences, but nobody is wrong for discussing the post-Ward GKs. They're just more up to date in that they are discussing the current canonical version on the GK.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Thats why the whole tomb kings in spess was also not really associated with Necrons up until recently when GW shoved that imagery down our throats, earlier the only connection they have were the pyramidal structures on necron tomb worlds, and the whole tomb-undead thing.

A natural consquence of giving them some personality, I guess. A theme that was always present in them got expanded upon.

I just want to get in here and back up Knas Ser's assertion that Nazi imagery and themes (along with Catholic ones) were an influence on the IoM. It's true. What he says about how the Nazis pulled together a lot of things (fear of the other, racial and ideological purity, rampant militarism) and made the resulting product their own is spot-on. Yes, other totalitarian regimes have killed more people, or feared the other just as much, and so on... but the Nazis were the first to do it all at once, and to do it with such iconic style. I'm not trying to say the Nazis were good or anything, because they weren't. Everybody sane can agree on that. But their style of totalitarianism had a flavor all its own, and that flavor is present in the IoM.

And yes, the Roman themes are there, too. Its hard to use Anglicized Latin in all your governmental names and not evoke some kind of Roman feeling. The IoM has a very strong Late Roman Empire vibe going... its a big mess that has overstretched itself militarily and is being taxed by all the enemies it has. Its teetering on the verge of collapse. It's grimdark.

But GW didn't stop with Roman themes. They layered the Nazis on top (kill the mutant, purge the unclean) and then slathered everything in a wet, runny garnish of Catholocism (the Ecclesiarchy and the power that it holds over everyone, no matter how highly-placed they may be... oh, and burn the heretic). The result is a faction that can only be considered the good guys because everyone else in the setting (prior to the Tau) is so much worse.

And that's what GW was going for.

I know its fashionable on the internet to call 'Nazi' anytime somebody doesn't like something else, or says something somebody disagrees with, but Knas Ser isn't being fashionable. He called Nazis because, in 40K, there are Nazis. Not generic 'totalitarians'. Nazis.

Specifically, Catholic Space Nazis who work for Roman sounding governmental departments.

The Necrons have more of a Lovecraftian background with omnipotent beings being bigger and more powerful than the human mind. A close resemblence to C'thulu and the such.

The Big E is botha Jesus and First Testament God allegory.

Imperial Guard have the most diverse inspiration with armies of the world, mainly Soviet era Red Army.

The Grey Knights are definately Spanish Inquisition along with other similar elements.

Space Marines are Starship Troopers, though the concept of a space marine was coined in the 1930s sci fi novels. Which is why its ridiculous for GW to sue anyone for using the name space marine.

The big E is also part King Arthur, Part St George, and part EVERY OTHER EPIC hero archetype since the year dot.

squidhills wrote:
I just want to get in here and back up Knas Ser's assertion that Nazi imagery and themes (along with Catholic ones) were an influence on the IoM. It's true. What he says about how the Nazis pulled together a lot of things (fear of the other, racial and ideological purity, rampant militarism) and made the resulting product their own is spot-on. Yes, other totalitarian regimes have killed more people, or feared the other just as much, and so on... but the Nazis were the first to do it all at once, and to do it with such iconic style. I'm not trying to say the Nazis were good or anything, because they weren't. Everybody sane can agree on that. But their style of totalitarianism had a flavor all its own, and that flavor is present in the IoM.

And yes, the Roman themes are there, too. Its hard to use Anglicized Latin in all your governmental names and not evoke some kind of Roman feeling. The IoM has a very strong Late Roman Empire vibe going... its a big mess that has overstretched itself militarily and is being taxed by all the enemies it has. Its teetering on the verge of collapse. It's grimdark.

But GW didn't stop with Roman themes. They layered the Nazis on top (kill the mutant, purge the unclean) and then slathered everything in a wet, runny garnish of Catholocism (the Ecclesiarchy and the power that it holds over everyone, no matter how highly-placed they may be... oh, and burn the heretic). The result is a faction that can only be considered the good guys because everyone else in the setting (prior to the Tau) is so much worse.

And that's what GW was going for.

I know its fashionable on the internet to call 'Nazi' anytime somebody doesn't like something else, or says something somebody disagrees with, but Knas Ser isn't being fashionable. He called Nazis because, in 40K, there are Nazis. Not generic 'totalitarians'. Nazis.

Specifically, Catholic Space Nazis who work for Roman sounding governmental departments.

Thanks for that. I was starting to wonder if I just had Nazis on the brain (which would be more than a little worrying). And spot on about the Roman flavour.

Another influence... It wasn't very emphasized in the early fluff but the insane bureaucracy of the Administratum draws on Brazil (which was released in 1985), a dash of Kafka and similar works, I think.

Two cents on Chaos and on Imperium/SM
Chaos gods remind me of the four knights from the book of Revelations:
War: Khorne
Pestilence: Nurgle
less obvious
Death: Tzeench (in tarots, death card means change, after all)
Famine: Slaanesh (a bit stretchy, but: in famine there's hunger... And slaanesh goes well with appetites)

Imperium to me is globally like the roman empire (provinces/planets, guard/decuriae/centuriae, marines/legions... Ok this worksbetter pre-heresy)

Space marines vary:
- Ultramarines keep with the roman empire
- Space wolves are viking/norse
- White scars/mongolian
- Dark angels/monastic orders
well, et cetera

Grey Knights are a little perplexing to me...
When I "left" they were the elite of the elite, standing over sm as marines stood above humans... Now they are stated as having more access to advanced tech, resources andvehicles than "other chapters"... but in fact have the same/less than other sm, descending from the"angelic army"status to a "sorcerous templar enclave"

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
The Big E is botha Jesus and First Testament God allegory.

The WH40K setting was created in 1987 in the North of England... I think any absolutist autocratic figure in fiction created under such circumstances, we have to also inspect for traces of Thatcher. /jk


(for Americans and others, let me just remark that when Thatcher died recently, the song "Hooray the Witch is Dead" came within a whisper of being the British number one sold track that month).


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 Kerrathyr wrote:
Grey Knights are a little perplexing to me...
When I "left" they were the elite of the elite, standing over sm as marines stood above humans... Now they are stated as having more access to advanced tech, resources andvehicles than "other chapters"... but in fact have the same/less than other sm, descending from the"angelic army"status to a "sorcerous templar enclave"

You must be the same as me - an older player now returning. I too am confused by the Grey Knights. They used to be terminator-clad marines who were all powerful psykers and specialised in demon killing. Now I don't know what they are, but I'm hearing the dread curse "Matt Ward" uttered in connection with them...

 Kerrathyr wrote:
Two cents on Chaos and on Imperium/SM
Chaos gods remind me of the four knights from the book of Revelations:
War: Khorne
Pestilence: Nurgle
less obvious
Death: Tzeench (in tarots, death card means change, after all)
Famine: Slaanesh (a bit stretchy, but: in famine there's hunger... And slaanesh goes well with appetites)
"

Those are how I associate them as well, and it isn't a hard stretch when you look at Tzeentch and Slaanesh.

Death is a transformative process to many world religions, the reference you note, and so forth.

Slaanesh as Famine is more pronounced than that even. For what does Slaanesh do, makes you numb to sensation or experience a famine of sensation so acute that you must constantly seek to 1-up it. A hunger for more and more that can never be satiated.

This in and of itself is not revolutionary. The Bible is the single most referenced and referred to piece of literature on the planet (with studies showing it is referenced, referred to, or serves as inspiration to more works of literature than all other literature combined). As such a 'Jesus' and 'Devil' metaphor are inescapable in literature.

Chaos is said to be the power that will result in the apocalypse, so the fact there are four and they do obviously represent facets of the Four Horsemen vs the Emporer is not surprising really and it isn't revolutionary (not saying it's bad or plageristic by any means, more stating that such parallels are inescapable).

squidhills wrote:
I just want to get in here and back up Knas Ser's assertion that Nazi imagery and themes (along with Catholic ones) were an influence on the IoM. It's true. What he says about how the Nazis pulled together a lot of things (fear of the other, racial and ideological purity, rampant militarism) and made the resulting product their own is spot-on. Yes, other totalitarian regimes have killed more people, or feared the other just as much, and so on... but the Nazis were the first to do it all at once, and to do it with such iconic style. I'm not trying to say the Nazis were good or anything, because they weren't. Everybody sane can agree on that. But their style of totalitarianism had a flavor all its own, and that flavor is present in the IoM.

And yes, the Roman themes are there, too. Its hard to use Anglicized Latin in all your governmental names and not evoke some kind of Roman feeling. The IoM has a very strong Late Roman Empire vibe going... its a big mess that has overstretched itself militarily and is being taxed by all the enemies it has. Its teetering on the verge of collapse. It's grimdark.

But GW didn't stop with Roman themes. They layered the Nazis on top (kill the mutant, purge the unclean) and then slathered everything in a wet, runny garnish of Catholocism (the Ecclesiarchy and the power that it holds over everyone, no matter how highly-placed they may be... oh, and burn the heretic). The result is a faction that can only be considered the good guys because everyone else in the setting (prior to the Tau) is so much worse.

And that's what GW was going for.

I know its fashionable on the internet to call 'Nazi' anytime somebody doesn't like something else, or says something somebody disagrees with, but Knas Ser isn't being fashionable. He called Nazis because, in 40K, there are Nazis. Not generic 'totalitarians'. Nazis.

Specifically, Catholic Space Nazis who work for Roman sounding governmental departments.

Find me evidence that the Inquisition is a specifically-Nazi-inspired element and not just every "secret police" organization ever, such as the KGB/KDB, FSB, EK, Statsi, Agentes in Rebus, Frumentarii, etc.

 Psienesis wrote:


Find me evidence that the Inquisition is a specifically-Nazi-inspired element and not just every "secret police" organization ever, such as the KGB/KDB, FSB, EK, Statsi, Agentes in Rebus, Frumentarii, etc.

OK, how's this: The Imperium kills people for having the wrong DNA.

Find me a totalitarian regime that did that that wasn't the Nazis.

Plenty of totalitarian regimes killed people, for political reasons. The Soviets killed 'counter-revolutionaries', Mao killed intellectuals, the army, his own supporters... actually, he wasn't picky about his targets, and the Khmer Rogue killed anyone with an education.

The Nazis were the ones who said: "You know who we should be killing? Jews. Because they are different. Oh, and Gypsies and Slavs. And anyone else who does not adhere to a predetermined genetic template." They didn't do it because those people had ideas that were dangerous to the Nazis, they didn't kill them because those people were a military threat to the Nazis. They did it because those people had different DNA. And that was sufficient crime in the eyes of the Nazis.

Just like how being a mutant is sufficient crime in the eyes of the Imperium.

Now please, stop pretending the Nazi overtones aren't there. I know you dig the IoM. Lots of us do. But recognizing that the IoM is inspired by a horrible evil group is not the same thing as liking that horrible evil group. You can hate the Nazis and still like the IoM. Pretending that the Nazi overtones aren't there is like pretending the IoM are the good guys in the setting, when they are really just the least-evil guys (and now that Tau are on the scene, that's not necessarily true anymore...maybe).

OK, how's this: The Imperium kills people for having the wrong DNA.

Find me a totalitarian regime that did that that wasn't the Nazis.

The Istanbul Pogrom (1950s)
Ne Win's purges in Burma (1962)
Idi Amin's purge of ethnic Asian/Indian population in Uganda (1970s)
The anti-Sikh Riots of 1984 (Delhi, India)
Saddam Hussein's purge of the Khurdish people (1980s/1990s)
The Serb-Croat War (1990s) whereby Serbian forces forcibly expelled Croats and non-Serbs, either by murder or forced deportation.
The LTTE of Sri Lanka ordered the removal of all Muslim people from the northern provinces (some 65,000 people). Those who did not leave were killed. (October 1990)
The Rwandan Genocide of 1994.

The Nazis were the ones who said: "You know who we should be killing? Jews. Because they are different. Oh, and Gypsies and Slavs. And anyone else who does not adhere to a predetermined genetic template." They didn't do it because those people had ideas that were dangerous to the Nazis, they didn't kill them because those people were a military threat to the Nazis. They did it because those people had different DNA. And that was sufficient crime in the eyes of the Nazis.

So did Stalin.

Now please, stop pretending the Nazi overtones aren't there. I know you dig the IoM. Lots of us do. But recognizing that the IoM is inspired by a horrible evil group is not the same thing as liking that horrible evil group. You can hate the Nazis and still like the IoM. Pretending that the Nazi overtones aren't there is like pretending the IoM are the good guys in the setting, when they are really just the least-evil guys (and now that Tau are on the scene, that's not necessarily true anymore...maybe).

You are very much off-base in why you think I'm arguing this.