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 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Someone forgot to have common courtesy and spend 30 seconds reading the replies
According to Formosa Curze won 6 out of 8 fights
Kurze has 6 attacks, hit and run, shrouded, and d3 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge.
Kurze is actually better in a fist fight. Yeah really stupid, I know.

I read Formosa's posts and acknowledged them. But for a proper discussion, the math doesn't lie. If you were to enact 100 fights the models on the table, the numbers would narrow in on the statistical average I posted. Which means Angron would win most of the time by a significant margin. The math doesn't lie.

Curze has all those rules, but Angron has Hatred, Furious Charge (from his legion rules after he kills a unit, giving him S9 on the charge), and a MC Plasma Pistol.

If we're going to talk about fights between them, I'm assuming a situation in which neither gets the charge.

So again, no, Curze doe not win in a fist fight. Stop making claims that have no basis other than some anecdotal evidence.

Once more so you understand;

If you were to fight Angron vs. Curze over 100 fights with no charge bonus either way, Angron would win far more often than Curze. Its takes 3.75 turns for Angron to kill Curze (not working out the IWND rolls, as they're the same for both), while it takes Curze 6.4 turns to kill Angron.

Back up your statements with facts.

Here's a fact: Angron and Curze have the same number of base attacks. Yeah....
Here's another fact: Angron and Ferrus have the same strength value. If Fulgrim killed Ferrus, imagine what Angron would do.....
Here's a third fact: Ferrus is actually tougher than Angron. Yeah. What?
Here's a fourth fact: Horus is better at combat than Angron. What the gak? That's a basic fluff violation. Horus was the most well rounded primarch, and Angron is built around killing power and toughness.
Fact of the matter is, Angron is not properly represented in comparison with his brothers. While some of us wanted primarchs to be way stronger, it's still satisfying to have fights between the primarchs play out as they should. We cant even have that...
Angron needs to be buffed in several areas. Most notably in Strength, his Save, his number of Wounds, and his number of Attacks (this one is the only one that needs more than +1).

I was kind of waiting for that first one. I find it particularly odd they would include Angron's extra attack for matched weapons in his profile, but not do it for Curze, so I was under the assumption he had 4 attacks base, and was bumped up to 5 with his weapons. I'm happy to re-do the math, but Angron will still beat Curze handily even then.

Fulgrim killed Ferrus due to a myriad of reasons, most of which had nothing to do with raw strength. Also, not a fact, just personal opinion and wild conjecture.

Ferrus is tougher than Angron. What's your point? Are you trying to claim (as an undisputed fact) that Angron is tougher than Ferrus? Sources, citations, etc.

As for Horus, I won't get into a fluff debate with you because it won't get us anywhere and serves very little purpose when discussing Angron's rules as they stand.

And I believe (and probably many others too) that Angron is properly represented in most ways. His strength is fine, his save is fine, and his toughness is fine. As I've said before, an extra attack would be fine for him. His lower armour save represents his disregard for personal safety and fights in armour symbolically representative of his time as a gladiator. He still has a 4++ save, which is more important against most attacks directed at him.

I've shown to you that Angron can beat Curze, and do so easily with his current stats. He's a cheap primarch in comparison who does the job he's depicted of doing in the fluff.

If you want people to take you seriously when proposing a rules change, show us that the character on the table top needs balancing by providing a numerical analysis against other units.

 Blacksails wrote:
I was kind of waiting for that first one. I find it particularly odd they would include Angron's extra attack for matched weapons in his profile, but not do it for Curze, so I was under the assumption he had 4 attacks base, and was bumped up to 5 with his weapons. I'm happy to re-do the math, but Angron will still beat Curze handily even then.

Fulgrim killed Ferrus due to a myriad of reasons, most of which had nothing to do with raw strength. Also, not a fact, just personal opinion and wild conjecture.

Ferrus is tougher than Angron. What's your point? Are you trying to claim (as an undisputed fact) that Angron is tougher than Ferrus? Sources, citations, etc.

As for Horus, I won't get into a fluff debate with you because it won't get us anywhere and serves very little purpose when discussing Angron's rules as they stand.

And I believe (and probably many others too) that Angron is properly represented in most ways. His strength is fine, his save is fine, and his toughness is fine. As I've said before, an extra attack would be fine for him. His lower armour save represents his disregard for personal safety and fights in armour symbolically representative of his time as a gladiator. He still has a 4++ save, which is more important against most attacks directed at him.

I've shown to you that Angron can beat Curze, and do so easily with his current stats. He's a cheap primarch in comparison who does the job he's depicted of doing in the fluff.

If you want people to take you seriously when proposing a rules change, show us that the character on the table top needs balancing by providing a numerical analysis against other units.

Your analysis of the first fact (Kurze's base attacks being 4) shows your (at least in this case) backwards reasoning.
I don't actually ever remember anything exacerbating Ferrus' toughness as his trait. His main trait was always his magic hands.
Angron has the most silly strength feat: overpowering a titan, that was overheating its reactor to try and squash him. This is leagues above any other primarch strength feat. Has Ferrus done anything like that?
Isn't it said by Lorgar that 1v1 no cheap tricks, Angron would pretty handily beat every other primarch?
Angron's specialty is his strength, toughness, and weapon handling. All aspects of martial prowess.
Most people probably don't believe that Angron is properly represented.

No, my assumption about Curze was that a Primarch's base attack value was 4. Its not backwards, its a reasonable assumption to make, especially when you look at the precedent set by Angron. But again, the point is that even using 6 attacks, Angron still wins easily. I want you to admit that you were initially wrong about Curze being able to handily beat Angron on the table top.

Ferrus is repeatedly described as being a large, resilient primarch. Mortarion is likely the toughest of all the primarch's, and clearly there are people who do this professionally who think that Vulkan and Ferrus are tougher than Angron.

Yeah, it is a silly strength feat. It shouldn't be used as any sort of basis for rules. But I've repeatedly told you that you take the fluff too literally when you try and implement in the game. I won't engage in a fluff discussion with you.

I don't know about what Lorgar said, and why does it matter? Angron stands a really good chance of beating most Primarchs on the table top if you play to his strengths. Kill a unit or two for the boost from the Nails, then charge in for Hatred and Furious charge bonus (and possible rage too) for a silly amount of re-rollable, S9, WS9, I7 attacks. In a straight 1v1 with no bonuses, Angron struggles against the likes of Mortarion, Vulkan, and Ferrus due to their resilience. But the fluff can't be taken too literally as to make Angron the end-all be-all and win against everything ever.

Angron's real trait is his combat prowess and berserk attitude, which are properly represented. He has a good strength value, as 7 is still above the average and good for just about everything, especially when you consider he's S8 in combat with his axes. His toughness is fine as he's no tougher than other average-toughness primarchs like Horus or Fulgrim. And don't forget Angron still has the highest WS, and gets extra attacks as the game progresses.

The more I discuss this, the more I'm coming to the conclusion he's fine for his points. Once more, an extra attack base would be fine to also set him that extra level apart in CC prowess. But all his other stats are fine and he plays the way he should; a berserk madman who's unstoppable in combat but has no regard for his own personal safety.

Either way, as always, I'm not going to get anywhere with you as you'll just quote some absurd fluff anecdotes as basis for a rule change. GW often has some very questionable balance issues and poor units, but their job so far with the primarchs has been pretty spot on. They all play differently to different strengths and weaknesses and show their character as well as you can within the limits of 40k's limited stat system and poor correlation between fluff and crunch.

Clearly I'm a bit of a masochist if I keep posting in your threads despite each one ending the same way. I'm out though.

 Blacksails wrote:
No, my assumption about Curze was that a Primarch's base attack value was 4. Its not backwards, its a reasonable assumption to make, especially when you look at the precedent set by Angron. But again, the point is that even using 6 attacks, Angron still wins easily. I want you to admit that you were initially wrong about Curze being able to handily beat Angron on the table top.

Ferrus is repeatedly described as being a large, resilient primarch. Mortarion is likely the toughest of all the primarch's, and clearly there are people who do this professionally who think that Vulkan and Ferrus are tougher than Angron.

Yeah, it is a silly strength feat. It shouldn't be used as any sort of basis for rules. But I've repeatedly told you that you take the fluff too literally when you try and implement in the game. I won't engage in a fluff discussion with you.

I don't know about what Lorgar said, and why does it matter? Angron stands a really good chance of beating most Primarchs on the table top if you play to his strengths. Kill a unit or two for the boost from the Nails, then charge in for Hatred and Furious charge bonus (and possible rage too) for a silly amount of re-rollable, S9, WS9, I7 attacks. In a straight 1v1 with no bonuses, Angron struggles against the likes of Mortarion, Vulkan, and Ferrus due to their resilience. But the fluff can't be taken too literally as to make Angron the end-all be-all and win against everything ever.

Angron's real trait is his combat prowess and berserk attitude, which are properly represented. He has a good strength value, as 7 is still above the average and good for just about everything, especially when you consider he's S8 in combat with his axes. His toughness is fine as he's no tougher than other average-toughness primarchs like Horus or Fulgrim. And don't forget Angron still has the highest WS, and gets extra attacks as the game progresses.

The more I discuss this, the more I'm coming to the conclusion he's fine for his points. Once more, an extra attack base would be fine to also set him that extra level apart in CC prowess. But all his other stats are fine and he plays the way he should; a berserk madman who's unstoppable in combat but has no regard for his own personal safety.

What....Of course he's fine for his points!!!! He's blatantly overpowered, once he lays low a couple units.
But that's never what I was trying to do. I was trying to make it so that straight after being placed on the field, he could beat any other primarch 1v1 in melee. You know, like in every source ever?
I'm trying to make the primarch vs primarch fights happen like they did in the HH, which adds a whole different level of cool.
And I think I succeeded in doing that given that a few other people were in general agreement with the changes, and that you never gave argument to the rules themselves.

Ok let's talk sources as I am a self confessed expert on the background, my memory long and full :|

Index astartes: Ferrus is the toughest, so is mortarion. Contradiction
index astartes: vulkan is the strongest physically (understand the distinction) so is Ferrus: contradiction
index astartes: lion el Johnson most skilled with sword (bladesman) ... Wait no contradiction.. Well at least that's sorted.
Best strategist: lots of contradictions, clarified, it's the lion, guilliman said it, so is horus.. Ergh
Index astartes: best fighter, Russ, lion sang, horus

Go further back and this is the norm, only with the recent retconned hh books has angron really come to the for, he has never been in the top lot when it came to the most powerful, then lo and behold we get new fluff and he is hard as nails (butchers that is) when he got ws9 I and alot of people were surprised, better than horus?? Mmkay.

If you want to do the fluff properly then angron is this

Ws7
Bs3
S6
T6
W8
I6
A8
Sv4+/4++
Ld8
Black sword

Go look at the older fluff, angron was never the big bad, neither was curze, it was horus, peturabo and mortarion, and angron wore chainmail, not power armour

 Formosa wrote:
Ok let's talk sources as I am a self confessed expert on the background, my memory long and full :|

Index astartes: Ferrus is the toughest, so is mortarion. Contradiction
index astartes: vulkan is the strongest physically (understand the distinction) so is Ferrus: contradiction
index astartes: lion el Johnson most skilled with sword (bladesman) ... Wait no contradiction.. Well at least that's sorted.
Best strategist: lots of contradictions, clarified, it's the lion, guilliman said it, so is horus.. Ergh
Index astartes: best fighter, Russ, lion sang, horus

Go further back and this is the norm, only with the recent retconned hh books has angron really come to the for, he has never been in the top lot when it came to the most powerful, then lo and behold we get new fluff and he is hard as nails (butchers that is) when he got ws9 I and alot of people were surprised, better than horus?? Mmkay.

If you want to do the fluff properly then angron is this

Ws7
Bs3
S6
T6
W8
I6
A8
Sv4+/4++
Ld8
Black sword

Go look at the older fluff, angron was never the big bad, neither was curze, it was horus, peturabo and mortarion, and angron wore chainmail, not power armour

I never remember Mortarion being anything more than a footnote.
Angron is the chosen of Khorne (the god of Strength and Skill). This would imply him to be the strongest and most skilled.
I always figured the writers finally caught onto this.
Regardless going by feats currently than Angron would be by far the strongest what with overpowering titans and all.
Doesn't mean Magnus wouldn't just kill him with an angry stare. Wait till we get Magnus' rules....

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Angron NEEDS a little bit of everything buffed. He is not gonna beat Horus or even Vulkan like some of you are saying. This is statistical fact. He should be able to wipe the floor with them.

This is what the OP is going for. I don't see a lot of point in trying to convince him otherwise.

Armour of Mars - Angron wears Artificer Armour that was crafted by the Artificers of the XII Legion from the gladiatorial armour in which he fought as a Nucerian slave.

So why can't he have 2+ armour, now again, when no other berserker unit/model gets reduced sv for berserking?

Because the armour of mars never existed before, op wants to stick just to fluff, so no armour of mars allowed since as per his rules a single reference is discarded

 ThePrimordial wrote:
So now the standard primarch Strength and Toughness are 7, and Wounds are 6. Angron is supposed to be by far the physically strongest primarch, and amongst the toughest to injure.

All of those things are incorrect. Those aren't the standard values and he's not even remotely ever been considered the strongest or toughest.