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So now the standard primarch Strength and Toughness are 7, and Wounds are 6. Angron is supposed to be by far the physically strongest primarch, and amongst the toughest to injure. A 3+? Really? Straken has a 3+ , and he's barechested, Angron should have terminator armor barechested.
This is only an edit to the statline and points cost. Here we go.
[WS][BS][..S..][T][W][I.][A][LD][..SV..]
[..9..][..5.][9(8)][6][.6][7][8][.10][2+/4+]
Weapons Skill: Unchanged
Ballistics Skill: Unchanged
Strength: Upped by 1. The 9 accounts for Gorefather and Gorechild.
Toughness: Unchanged
Wounds: Upped by 1 to primarch standard.
Initiative: Unchanged
Attacks: Upped by 2
Leadership: Unchanged
Save: Increased from a 3+/5+ to a 2+/4+. Primarch standard.
New rules:
Avatar of Hatred: With Angron as your army's warlord, all World Eaters units in your army have preferred enemy(vanilla marines)
Points: 500? Up by 100 points

He's not tougher than Mortarion/Vulkan/Ferrus. He'd be T7 at most, though I think T6 fits him fine.

The strength for him is fine at 7, I'd just go with making his weapons stronger by making them S +2.

I'm fine with the wounds either way, I think most should be 6 anyways, with one or two above and below.

And yeah, he needs that extra attack for sure.

 Blacksails wrote:
He's not tougher than Mortarion/Vulkan/Ferrus. He'd be T7 at most, though I think T6 fits him fine.

The strength for him is fine at 7, I'd just go with making his weapons stronger by making them S +2.

I'm fine with the wounds either way, I think most should be 6 anyways, with one or two above and below.

And yeah, he needs that extra attack for sure.

At T6 he'd actually be frailer than most primarchs. Which doesn't at all make sense.
What are you saying? Mortarion is still worlds tougher due to having 7 wounds, immunity to poison, and being able to reroll IWND rolls.
What I'm implying by having T8 is he's the toughest to injure but not to kill. Mortarion takes inhuman amounts of wounds, and is the toughest to kill, but that doesn't mean he's the toughest to wound.
Edit: Yeah T7 fits him well enough,

Honestly, the more I think about it, T6 fits him fine. You don't want to make the primarchs homogeneous, as you could argue most of them should be T7, which defeats the purpose of having 'tougher' primarchs than others. The standard is T6 still, and Angron isn't noted as being as tough as Vulkan/Mortarion/Ferrus.

The direction you should be going for crunch and fluff reasons is not to make his defensive abilities better, but makes his offensive abilities stronger.

Make his weapons +2S, give an extra attack (or two), and give him a better army wide/area affect buff. Then he's go toe to toe with the other Primarchs.

If you want to make him more resilient, give him FnP (5+) instead of the 6+ he has currently.

That way he keeps a distinct flavour without moving all the Primarchs into T7 category. Hell, Horus isn't even T7.

 Blacksails wrote:
Honestly, the more I think about it, T6 fits him fine. You don't want to make the primarchs homogeneous, as you could argue most of them should be T7, which defeats the purpose of having 'tougher' primarchs than others. The standard is T6 still, and Angron isn't noted as being as tough as Vulkan/Mortarion/Ferrus.

The direction you should be going for crunch and fluff reasons is not to make his defensive abilities better, but makes his offensive abilities stronger.

Make his weapons +2S, give an extra attack (or two), and give him a better army wide/area affect buff. Then he's go toe to toe with the other Primarchs.

If you want to make him more resilient, give him FnP (5+) instead of the 6+ he has currently.

That way he keeps a distinct flavour without moving all the Primarchs into T7 category. Hell, Horus isn't even T7.

I think its safe to say Angron is as tough as Manus....
How about this for an army buff: With Angron as your army's warlord all vehicles with transport capacity count as assault vehicles for all purposes.
Edit: Screw it. Let's give him T6.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I think its safe to say Angron is as tough as Manus....
How about this for an army buff: With Angron as your army's warlord all vehicles with transport capacity count as assault vehicles for all purposes.

And I would disagree. The trio of Vulkan/Ferrus/Mortarion are described as the toughest primarchs. Its their thing to be tough, which is reflected in their legions too.

Horus is a big, tough primarch too. But he's at T6 so that the genuinely tough primarchs can stand out at T7. Buffing Angron to T7 doesn't fit his fluff well, and doesn't fix the problems with his abilities in game.

He needs greater offensive power. Leave T7 for the Primarchs constantly referred to as the toughest of their brother primarchs. Angron is not of those. T6 is fine, give him more attacks and slightly better weapons. Maybe a 2+ save and a better FnP roll for the Butcher's Nails.

Your army wide buff is too powerful. Think something along the lines of the old Furious charge, or granting them preferred enemy.

*Edit* Saw your edit. Good, T6 is fine, boost him other ways.

T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Just took a look. Yes, you're right, the base Primarch T is 6. Huh. 7 would make more sense to me but oh well, fair enough. My point on 2+ sv still stands though.

I have used angron extensively, 1 on 1 he kills nearly all of the other primarchs though a mix of his prefured enemy and hatred,on top of this he will have killed a few squads normally on his way in and thus have even more attacks, his 3+/4++ is fine and fits his fluff (he doesn't care if he dies), as a general tip send him at a unit with any kind if hq in it or a unit that can all issue challenges (like palentine blades) and laugh as he rips them all appart with almost no threat in return adding more and more to his nails bonus

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Angron NEEDS a little bit of everything buffed. He is not gonna beat Horus or even Vulkan like some of you are saying. This is statistical fact. He should be able to wipe the floor with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
I have used angron extensively, 1 on 1 he kills nearly all of the other primarchs though a mix of his prefured enemy and hatred,on top of this he will have killed a few squads normally on his way in and thus have even more attacks, his 3+/4++ is fine and fits his fluff (he doesn't care if he dies), as a general tip send him at a unit with any kind if hq in it or a unit that can all issue challenges (like palentine blades) and laugh as he rips them all appart with almost no threat in return adding more and more to his nails bonus

A 2+ is a primarch running around nude. No that 3+ doesn't fit his fluff. You must be lucky. He gets killed by Vulkan in a test run I did to see who'd win.

By the way, Angron isn't the physically strongest primarch, Vulkan is. It is stated in Vulkan Lives.

 Imperator_Class wrote:
By the way, Angron isn't the physically strongest primarch, Vulkan is. It is stated in Vulkan Lives.

So one book says something different than the entirety of the other 40 books?
That means clearly it's true and not the author pimping out an unfleshed character.
All the other books list Angron as the strongest martial primarch. Its kinda his thing.
Isn't that also written by a "new" author? The book is disliked for pimping out Vulkan as a Mary sue.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Angron NEEDS a little bit of everything buffed. He is not gonna beat Horus or even Vulkan like some of you are saying. This is statistical fact. He should be able to wipe the floor with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
I have used angron extensively, 1 on 1 he kills nearly all of the other primarchs though a mix of his prefured enemy and hatred,on top of this he will have killed a few squads normally on his way in and thus have even more attacks, his 3+/4++ is fine and fits his fluff (he doesn't care if he dies), as a general tip send him at a unit with any kind if hq in it or a unit that can all issue challenges (like palentine blades) and laugh as he rips them all appart with almost no threat in return adding more and more to his nails bonus

A 2+ is a primarch running around nude. No that 3+ doesn't fit his fluff. You must be lucky. He gets killed by Vulkan in a test run I did to see who'd win.

It's not luck, angron hits first, wounds on a 3+ and has around 7-9 attacks depending on the rite of war, he re rolls misses and 1s to wound, so usually knocks off 2-3 wounds from vulkan, in return vulkan hits on 4+ with 1 're-roll, this is usually 2-3 hits equalling 1-2 wounds, where vulkan is better the longer the fight lasts, angron is very nasty throughout

 Formosa wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Angron NEEDS a little bit of everything buffed. He is not gonna beat Horus or even Vulkan like some of you are saying. This is statistical fact. He should be able to wipe the floor with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
I have used angron extensively, 1 on 1 he kills nearly all of the other primarchs though a mix of his prefured enemy and hatred,on top of this he will have killed a few squads normally on his way in and thus have even more attacks, his 3+/4++ is fine and fits his fluff (he doesn't care if he dies), as a general tip send him at a unit with any kind if hq in it or a unit that can all issue challenges (like palentine blades) and laugh as he rips them all appart with almost no threat in return adding more and more to his nails bonus

A 2+ is a primarch running around nude. No that 3+ doesn't fit his fluff. You must be lucky. He gets killed by Vulkan in a test run I did to see who'd win.

It's not luck, angron hits first, wounds on a 3+ and has around 7-9 attacks depending on the rite of war, he re rolls misses and 1s to wound, so usually knocks off 2-3 wounds from vulkan, in return vulkan hits on 4+ with 1 're-roll, this is usually 2-3 hits equalling 1-2 wounds, where vulkan is better the longer the fight lasts, angron is very nasty throughout

Angron has 6 attacks. You forgot Vulkan has those 3 inch blasts he can throw out before Angron is in btb. I did the math and with Vulkan's 3++, Vulkan's similar WS, Vulkan rerolling IWND rolls with his Blood of fire, and Vulkan having a ranged weapon that can actually hurt Angron as he closes in, Vulkan normally wins.

Again, all Angron needs is more choppiness. Make his weapons S +2, give him an extra attack or two, and a better area affect/army wide buff.

Remember that not all Primarchs are made equal. Some will be better, some will be worse. However, the costs of them will help offset their abilities, and Angron is still cheaper than most. I could maybe seem him knocked down to 375pts.

And once more, fluff does not equal crunch. Stop taking things so literally. Angron should be better, certainly, but don't go overboard buffing everything. Variety in the primarchs is good.

 Blacksails wrote:
Again, all Angron needs is more choppiness. Make his weapons S +2, give him an extra attack or two, and a better area affect/army wide buff.

Remember that not all Primarchs are made equal. Some will be better, some will be worse. However, the costs of them will help offset their abilities, and Angron is still cheaper than most. I could maybe seem him knocked down to 375pts.

And once more, fluff does not equal crunch. Stop taking things so literally. Angron should be better, certainly, but don't go overboard buffing everything. Variety in the primarchs is good.

We've been over this: if fluff equaled crunch there would be 30 different rule sets for everything.
Understand this: the fluff has an influence on the rules.
That's basically what I've done with Angron's rules.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Angron NEEDS a little bit of everything buffed. He is not gonna beat Horus or even Vulkan like some of you are saying. This is statistical fact. He should be able to wipe the floor with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
I have used angron extensively, 1 on 1 he kills nearly all of the other primarchs though a mix of his prefured enemy and hatred,on top of this he will have killed a few squads normally on his way in and thus have even more attacks, his 3+/4++ is fine and fits his fluff (he doesn't care if he dies), as a general tip send him at a unit with any kind if hq in it or a unit that can all issue challenges (like palentine blades) and laugh as he rips them all appart with almost no threat in return adding more and more to his nails bonus

A 2+ is a primarch running around nude. No that 3+ doesn't fit his fluff. You must be lucky. He gets killed by Vulkan in a test run I did to see who'd win.

It's not luck, angron hits first, wounds on a 3+ and has around 7-9 attacks depending on the rite of war, he re rolls misses and 1s to wound, so usually knocks off 2-3 wounds from vulkan, in return vulkan hits on 4+ with 1 're-roll, this is usually 2-3 hits equalling 1-2 wounds, where vulkan is better the longer the fight lasts, angron is very nasty throughout

Angron has 6 attacks. You forgot Vulkan has those 3 inch blasts he can throw out before Angron is in btb. I did the math and with Vulkan's 3++, Vulkan's similar WS, Vulkan rerolling IWND rolls with his Blood of fire, and Vulkan having a ranged weapon that can actually hurt Angron as he closes in, Vulkan normally wins.

Vulkan has no phosphex that I'm aware of, and his blast attack is b2b only, so again I don't know what you mean there, rr for it will not die I had already factored in and have encountered in real life (I.e not vacuum packed maths) and its not that great, the 3++ is great however, lastly vulkans gun is meh, you will never be getting those hits on angron.

Angron has 6 attacks base +1 for charging, + 2 depending on rite of war, add to this any units that will have been killed already, so on average between 7-9.

As I said I play regular games useing angron and put him up against other primarchs in real life, you can theory hammer and math hammer all you like but experience wins out here, I urge you to actually play a few dozen games before saying angron sucks, because he really doesn't.

For clarity

Horus vs angron, 10-4 horus
Fulgrim vs angron, angron wins (so far) 6-2
Mortarion vs angron, so far 7-5 angron
Ferrus vs angron, 4-3 to Ferrus
vulkan vs angron 5-5
Night haunter vs angron 6-2 Night haunted, this guy is nails
Have not played lorgar

So angron beats others quite handily, horus hands him his ass often, this is mainly due to the talon, fulgrim just cannot compete with the amount of attacks and wounds coming at him, mortarion and vulkan can out last him, Ferrus is just a power house and night haunters 're roll wounds edges him out annoyingly, these are all stats from my games

 ThePrimordial wrote:

We've been over this: if fluff equaled crunch there would be 30 different rule sets for everything.
Understand this: the fluff has an influence on the rules.
That's basically what I've done with Angron's rules.

Yes, and you consistently interpret the fluff too literally.

Honestly, I think Angron should keep his 3+ armour save, even if its just for some variety in the Primarchs. He still has a 4++ to fall back on for most serious threats thrown at him. Give him some extra close combat boost, and maybe knock him down to about Fulgrim's price.

Angron should be a higher toughness and ws than most primarchs but i don't think the game could ever do the fluff justice and keep a balanced game.

Angron is fine with a 3+. He's supposed to be an insane berserker focused on all-out slaughtering, so it makes sense that his defense wouldn't be the best.

 Peregrine wrote:
Angron is fine with a 3+. He's supposed to be an insane berserker focused on all-out slaughtering, so it makes sense that his defense wouldn't be the best.

Again from a fluff perspective his abs would be as tough as terminator armor. This is focusing on balancing Angron so he fits in line with the other primarchs fluff wise. In other words so he can beat them all 1v1 more than 50% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Angron NEEDS a little bit of everything buffed. He is not gonna beat Horus or even Vulkan like some of you are saying. This is statistical fact. He should be able to wipe the floor with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
I have used angron extensively, 1 on 1 he kills nearly all of the other primarchs though a mix of his prefured enemy and hatred,on top of this he will have killed a few squads normally on his way in and thus have even more attacks, his 3+/4++ is fine and fits his fluff (he doesn't care if he dies), as a general tip send him at a unit with any kind if hq in it or a unit that can all issue challenges (like palentine blades) and laugh as he rips them all appart with almost no threat in return adding more and more to his nails bonus

A 2+ is a primarch running around nude. No that 3+ doesn't fit his fluff. You must be lucky. He gets killed by Vulkan in a test run I did to see who'd win.

It's not luck, angron hits first, wounds on a 3+ and has around 7-9 attacks depending on the rite of war, he re rolls misses and 1s to wound, so usually knocks off 2-3 wounds from vulkan, in return vulkan hits on 4+ with 1 're-roll, this is usually 2-3 hits equalling 1-2 wounds, where vulkan is better the longer the fight lasts, angron is very nasty throughout

Angron has 6 attacks. You forgot Vulkan has those 3 inch blasts he can throw out before Angron is in btb. I did the math and with Vulkan's 3++, Vulkan's similar WS, Vulkan rerolling IWND rolls with his Blood of fire, and Vulkan having a ranged weapon that can actually hurt Angron as he closes in, Vulkan normally wins.

Vulkan has no phosphex that I'm aware of, and his blast attack is b2b only, so again I don't know what you mean there, rr for it will not die I had already factored in and have encountered in real life (I.e not vacuum packed maths) and its not that great, the 3++ is great however, lastly vulkans gun is meh, you will never be getting those hits on angron.

Angron has 6 attacks base +1 for charging, + 2 depending on rite of war, add to this any units that will have been killed already, so on average between 7-9.

As I said I play regular games useing angron and put him up against other primarchs in real life, you can theory hammer and math hammer all you like but experience wins out here, I urge you to actually play a few dozen games before saying angron sucks, because he really doesn't.

For clarity

Horus vs angron, 10-4 horus
Fulgrim vs angron, angron wins (so far) 6-2
Mortarion vs angron, so far 7-5 angron
Ferrus vs angron, 4-3 to Ferrus
vulkan vs angron 5-5
Night haunter vs angron 6-2 Night haunted, this guy is nails
Have not played lorgar

So angron beats others quite handily, horus hands him his ass often, this is mainly due to the talon, fulgrim just cannot compete with the amount of attacks and wounds coming at him, mortarion and vulkan can out last him, Ferrus is just a power house and night haunters 're roll wounds edges him out annoyingly, these are all stats from my games

So his record isn't nearly as good as it should be. Why are you arguing then?
Btw when I mentioned the Earthshatter rule (3 inch blast) I meant it gives Vulkan 4 free hits is Angron ends up less than 3 inches away after a charge. The blast is put anywhere in Base to base with Angron. It doesn't mean the target has to be in BTB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
T7 certainly makes sense to me. He is a -primarch- after all. It is in mind that their major differences should be. Honestly, what physical difference there is does not justify changing an entire point in the T stat either, IMHO.

2+ is what he needs the most. How any Primarch could have anything less than artificier armour does not make sense to me either.

He certainly looks tougher than Mephiston to me.

The base Toughness for a primarch is 6. Angron isn't notably tough, and makes sense at 6. Leave values of 7 for the primarchs who's main traits are toughness and endurance, like Vulkan, Ferrus, and Mortarion.

Angron just needs to hit harder.

Just took a look. Yes, you're right, the base Primarch T is 6. Huh. 7 would make more sense to me but oh well, fair enough. My point on 2+ sv still stands though.

Well yeah Angron is quite a bit tougher than the base primarch.
That's kinda the point Angron doesn't have any leadership skills/ army buffs. His main points are his WS, S, T, I, & A. This is a more beastly statline because Angron has no army buffs worth 100 points. Just like his character. All about his own strength, not what he can inspire in others.

Angron is stronger than most of the primarchs, he is the same base str as the other 2 "strongest" primarchs, Ferrus is str7, vulkan str 7 and if anyones stats are wrong there it's vulkan, he should be base 8 or 9, angron has the most attacks too based on his limitless buffs depending on what he kills, capped at 10 I know but it's still more.

The 3" blast replaces all of vulkans attacks so 1 hit on angron...meh

As to the stats "not being as good as he should be" your flat wrong their, he does what he is supposed to and remember, the others are alot more expensive in points so the opponent is losing more than "just" a.primarch, the fact he doesn't just roll through them makes it more balanced, this is a good thing.

I will be putting up part 3 of my hh review covering the lords of war next, take a look at the other one and comment on it, there are a few mistakes in there but I urge and hh player to take a look

 Formosa wrote:
Angron is stronger than most of the primarchs, he is the same base str as the other 2 "strongest" primarchs, Ferrus is str7, vulkan str 7 and if anyones stats are wrong there it's vulkan, he should be base 8 or 9, angron has the most attacks too based on his limitless buffs depending on what he kills, capped at 10 I know but it's still more.

The 3" blast replaces all of vulkans attacks so 1 hit on angron...meh

As to the stats "not being as good as he should be" your flat wrong their, he does what he is supposed to and remember, the others are alot more expensive in points so the opponent is losing more than "just" a.primarch, the fact he doesn't just roll through them makes it more balanced, this is a good thing.

I will be putting up part 3 of my hh review covering the lords of war next, take a look at the other one and comment on it, there are a few mistakes in there but I urge and hh player to take a look

Actually Horus, Angron, Ferrus, and Vulkan are all Strength 7. The rules for the earthshatter can be read as replacing all 4 attacks with the blast, or replacing each attack with its own blast.
Vulkan is nowhere near as strong as Angron in the fluff. There is only one book that says differently. That means this book is to be disregarded.To put this in perspective the primarchs play favorites amongst themselves to see who's strongest. Despite Angron being hated he's in all the primarchs top 3 or at the top for the position of most powerful primarch. This would imply him to be the strongest. Not only this but he's never lost a duel amongst his brothers, easily defeating Russ in actual combat.
Angron should be able to beat every other primarch 1v1 more than 50% of the time. That's what these rules set out to do. To right the rules, to be in line with the fluff regarding the Primarchs strength compared to each other.

"a blast" is a singular not a plural, if it said "replace normal attacks and place the blasts in base contact" but it doesnt, it even says "instead of attacking normally in an assault" the only way to use your attacks characteristic is in a normal assault*, which you are now told you are not doing,, so attacks has nothing to do with it, you need express permission in the rule if you want to use multiple.

unless FAQ'd i would and will not allow it in out area, you guys are free to interprete it anyway you like.

Ballance, angron is the cheapest primarch so far and his stats show this, he is NOT str 7, he is str 8 with his weapons, meaning that he will be wounding most others on a 2+ with a re roll, that is better than ANY of the the other primarchs so far (bar night haunter), play the game, use him, I have Extensivly, you seem to have just conjecture which while mildy usefull is not that helpful in the actual game.

 ThePrimordial wrote:


Vulkan is nowhere near as strong as Angron in the fluff. There is only one book that says differently. That means this book is to be disregarded.

This is why most people can't take you seriously in threads like this.

Who gets to decide which books apply? You? Anything that doesn't fit what you want to hear is just discarded? Such a great attitude to have and a great starting point to discuss anything.

As I've tried to explain many times, the stat system represents significant gaps in abilities. Is Angron so much stronger that he deserves to be S8? Absolutely not; he may be slightly stronger, but definitely not to the point of deserving a whole extra S point above other primarchs also described as being excessively strong by a primarch's standard.

Angron is mostly fine. An extra attack or two certainly wouldn't go amiss, nor would buffing his special rule. Making it a 18 or 24" radius would be enough.

Formosa is also making a compelling argument using in game examples, and I'm being swayed to just leave Angron as is, though I think an extra attack while keeping him 400pts would make him that touch extra beefy to give him the right edge in CC.

 Blacksails wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:


Vulkan is nowhere near as strong as Angron in the fluff. There is only one book that says differently. That means this book is to be disregarded.

This is why most people can't take you seriously in threads like this.

Who gets to decide which books apply? You? Anything that doesn't fit what you want to hear is just discarded? Such a great attitude to have and a great starting point to discuss anything.

As I've tried to explain many times, the stat system represents significant gaps in abilities. Is Angron so much stronger that he deserves to be S8? Absolutely not; he may be slightly stronger, but not to the point of deserving a whole extra S point above other primarchs also described as being excessively strong by a primarch's standard.

Angron is mostly fine. An extra attack or two certainly wouldn't go amiss, nor would buffing his special rule. Making it a 18 or 24" radius would be enough.

Formosa is also making a compelling argument using in game examples, and I'm being swayed to just leave Angron as is, though I think an extra attack while keeping him 400pts would make him that touch extra beefy to give him the right edge in CC.

When one book says something different than the other 20+ which all say the same thing, it's safe to disregard that one book.
You have trouble understanding other's arguments or misconstrue them to fit with your views.
Angron's rules are not fine from a basic stance: He seriously can't beat Konrad curze in a straight up fist fight.
Think about how stupid that is.
Also is Angron so much stronger than Ferrus he needs S8. As anyone will tell you, yes actually. That's Angron's specialty: martial prowess.

I'm no mathologist or anything, but Curze has;

-Less attacks
-Worse WS
-Worse S (by two)
-Same initiative
-Same invuln save (only save that matters with Primarch vs. Primarch)
-No FnP save

So...how exactly does Curze beat Angron in a 40k battle? The math suggests Angron would win, all the time. He hits on 3s, wounds on 2s, and has more attacks. Curze hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, gets his re-roll on a statistical 1.25 dice, has less attacks, and has to worry about Angron's FnP save.

Seriously, Angron is reliably putting 1.6 wounds after Curze's saves. Curze on the other hand Curze is only putting 0.78 wounds through, roughly. So tell me who's going to win a mathhammer fight?

If you're going to throw around statements like "He seriously can't beat Konrad curze in a straight up fist fight. ", at least have common courtesy of backing it up.

I'm not going to debate fluff with you anymore, as it won't get anywhere. Angron is dandy at a base S7 and his weapons granting him an additional point. Martial prowess is not strength, its WS, and he's the highest WS, as appropriate.

*Edit* Forgot Fulgrim was only WS8. Apparently Angron is the highest WS, cool.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm no mathologist or anything, but Curze has;

-Less attacks
-Worse WS
-Worse S (by two)
-Same initiative
-Same invuln save (only save that matters with Primarch vs. Primarch)
-No FnP save

So...how exactly does Curze beat Angron in a 40k battle? The math suggests Angron would win, all the time. He hits on 3s, wounds on 2s, and has more attacks. Curze hits on 4s, wounds on 4s, gets his re-roll on a statistical 1.25 dice, has less attacks, and has to worry about Angron's FnP save.

Seriously, Angron is reliably putting 1.6 wounds after Curze's saves. Curze on the other hand Curze is only putting 0.78 wounds through, roughly. So tell me who's going to win a mathhammer fight?
Someone forgot to use common courtesy and spend 5 minutes reading replies
If you're going to throw around statements like "He seriously can't beat Konrad curze in a
straight up fist fight. ", at least have common courtesy of backing it up.

I'm not going to debate fluff with you anymore, as it won't get anywhere. Angron is dandy at a base S7 and his weapons granting him an additional point. Martial prowess is not strength, its WS, and he's the highest WS, as appropriate.

*Edit* Forgot Fulgrim was only WS8. Apparently Angron is the highest WS, cool.

Someone forgot to have common courtesy and spend 30 seconds reading the replies
According to Formosa Curze won 6 out of 8 fights
Kurze has 6 attacks, hit and run, shrouded, and d3 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge.
Kurze is actually better in a fist fight. Yeah really stupid, I know.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Someone forgot to have common courtesy and spend 30 seconds reading the replies
According to Formosa Curze won 6 out of 8 fights
Kurze has 6 attacks, hit and run, shrouded, and d3 hammer of wrath attacks on the charge.
Kurze is actually better in a fist fight. Yeah really stupid, I know.

I read Formosa's posts and acknowledged them. But for a proper discussion, the math doesn't lie. If you were to enact 100 fights the models on the table, the numbers would narrow in on the statistical average I posted. Which means Angron would win most of the time by a significant margin. The math doesn't lie.

Curze has all those rules, but Angron has Hatred, Furious Charge (from his legion rules after he kills a unit, giving him S9 on the charge), and a MC Plasma Pistol.

If we're going to talk about fights between them, I'm assuming a situation in which neither gets the charge.

So again, no, Curze doe not win in a fist fight. Stop making claims that have no basis other than some anecdotal evidence.

Once more so you understand;

If you were to fight Angron vs. Curze over 100 fights with no charge bonus either way, Angron would win far more often than Curze. Its takes 3.75 turns for Angron to kill Curze (not working out the IWND rolls, as they're the same for both), while it takes Curze 6.4 turns to kill Angron.

Back up your statements with facts.