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 Melissia wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
So my question is, do you think that they should have quit with the HH books after the first ten or something?

I think they should never have written them in the first place.

The HH was better as myths and legends. They were more epic that way . They aren't quite so epic now.

Yeah probably. As I said, I feel poorer for knowing more about the primarchs..

Insert generic comedian's comparison to a description of their sex life here.

I'd rather read more about the siege of Terra.

 Harriticus wrote:
Meh I think doing the Heresy as books was fine and interesting, it has a great cast of characters. However the problem is they've dragged it out far, far too long. It should have been a trilogy or 5 books tops.

This.

I forget which book I stopped reading at, but they've stuffed far more filler into the HH story line than was necessary. Worse, they've screwed up a few timelines and took what could have been an easy roadmap to hell and turned it into an episode of monty python's flying circus.

That said, I have enjoyed the FW HH:Massacre book so I'll be picking up the second one (hopefully for christmas!). It was FAR more straightforward than anything coming out of BL.

Honestly, they should just go ahead and wrap it up. Then let the authors loose taking the story forward by 1,000 years. That would be rock solid green field from which to pull from.

This is like finding out that Darth Vader murdered all those kids, but with Curze you need to remember that he went on to make a fortress out of living people. He's quite bat gak insane from seeing his own death.

I've not read that much of the HH series, but what I have done has given my enough insight in to the background of that time. I probably won't pick another book up until they cover the seige of Terra itself.

I know they're old HH books, but if you haven't read them A Thousand Sons and The First Heretic are good insights into Magnus and Lorgar and their legions. Gives them depth without ruining them.

clively wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Meh I think doing the Heresy as books was fine and interesting, it has a great cast of characters. However the problem is they've dragged it out far, far too long. It should have been a trilogy or 5 books tops.

This.

I forget which book I stopped reading at, but they've stuffed far more filler into the HH story line than was necessary. Worse, they've screwed up a few timelines and took what could have been an easy roadmap to hell and turned it into an episode of monty python's flying circus.

That said, I have enjoyed the FW HH:Massacre book so I'll be picking up the second one (hopefully for christmas!). It was FAR more straightforward than anything coming out of BL.

Honestly, they should just go ahead and wrap it up. Then let the authors loose taking the story forward by 1,000 years. That would be rock solid green field from which to pull from.

Nah, what they should have done is a trilogy per Legion. Maybe an extra book for the Chaos Legions. My main problem about the Horus Heresy books is the simply hilarious way the Primarchs turned and just felt that they fell way too fast. The problem isn't its length- it'd be fine if they drew it out over characterizing the Legions and adding depth. But it started out fast, and has suddenly slowed to a crawl.

I'd prefered it that each Legion for 3-4 books, the first focusing on the years before the Heresy so we fully understood the old characters. Detail the fall of the traitor legions, make it tragic- not almost funny considering how pathetic the argument chaos made for turning traitor. Then write three final books tying the ends of all the other trilogies/quadrilogies together with the Battle of Terra.

BAM, excellent pacing, perfect, can't be screwed up. Instead of the current awkward pace that started so fast I got whiplash then slowed to an utter crawl.

I think books about the legions before and during the heresy would have been fine if the primarchs and the emperor were distant side characters. Like give me the story of Dark Angel Joe living through the events of the heresy. Seeing each legion through the eyes of the rank and file would have been a better way to tell the heresy story while keeping the important parts and characters mythic and folkloric. You could tease at the reasons for individual primarch's falls without trivializing them by dealing with them directly.

Most of the fluff I read makes me like the setting less. There are a few amazing exceptions to that rule, but they generally focus on expanding the universe as a whole over the specific tale of some dude

mattyrm wrote:So my question is, do you think that they should have quit with the HH books after the first ten or something? Do you think it was better when you knew little and could forge your own narrative?

Hmm, this is a difficult question. On one hand, those books are not intended to serve as factual reports - they're just one of many versions of the story as it might have happened, and it's up to you as the indivudal reader on whether or not you want to adopt this into your own little version of the background. So it should not actually be a problem, if one prefers it as myth and legend (like I do).
On the other hand, the fandom has demonstrated a remarkable inability to deal with this freedom and continues to propagate these books like some sort of gospel, in spite of how the company actually wants it all to be perceived.

It should not be necessary, but considering all the discussions and debates in this forum's background section, I'm afraid I have to say that, yes, subjectively (meaning, from where I stand) it would have been better if these books had not been made, just because of the effect they have on how the setting as a whole is perceived. It's sad, because I'm sure a lot of people enjoy reading them, but the application in practice is ... controversial.

Psienesis wrote:The argument is "most BL novels are terrible. You're expecting too much from the HH series."
Which is true, especially a series written by so many authors. They're attempting to provide the "reality" of that which, previously, was only myth and legend in the setting. It is bound to fall short.

This too is a big problem. The writers are essentially taking the legends from the studio material and then attempt to weave a story around it that is, or so they intend, a compelling read with interesting characters. I don't think this works very well in novel format, not with the kind of feats and perks attributed to the dramatis personae. It's like trying to put "300" into a book. It's just not the same thing because it's missing out the amazing visuals that made the movie almost a piece of art.

Or, in other words, the Horus Heresy stories might've worked a lot better as a TV series*, because there people could focus on the epic pictures and not waste any thoughts about the thin backgrounds or how ridiculously OTT everything seems - in essence, I think putting it on screen instead of on paper would've turned a bug into a feature.

jareddm wrote:Both ADB and Nick Kyme have said that the "no canon in 40k" line only applies to actual 40k lore, not to the HH.

What? No. I think you should read the various statements of the authors again.

I got it wrong myself, right up until I was in a meeting with the company’s Intellectual Property Manager – a situation I find myself in several times a year, as part of the Horus Heresy novel series team. When I was specifically asking about canon, he replied with something I’ve tried to take to heart: "It’s all real, and none of it’s real." It was a bit of an epiphany, to tell you the truth. It also reminded me of that rather cool Qui-Gon Jinn line: "Your focus determines your reality."
- ADB's blog

[edit]*: Or a comic, before anyone points out that the 300 graphic novel came before the movie. As long as it has fancy pictures to feast your eyes on. You get the idea.

Doing the HH was a good idea, if only for the awesome model range it has spawned.

The problem is they are milking it for everything it is worth. They should have made it a terse, taught storyline, instead of a giant garbled mess of pointless filler, contradicting timelines and inconsistent character treatments.

While not all of the Heresy novels were awful, I do think the fluff for the universe was cooler when the Heresy was something that happened in the long long ago and we only knew the basics of it.


That said, Unremembered Novel was plain awful. It was nothing more than filler. There is, quite literally, not a single significant event in it. It is simply a vehicle for primarch porn. It facilitates more battles between primarchs that have no resolution, simply as fan service for those who rabidly consume these novels.

If they were going to do the Horus Heresy as a novel series, it should have been a short run thing that covered the story start to finish. Instead, it's just a bloated, drawn out cash cow that hasn't had a single decent novel-length entry in almost two years, lol.

While I am still in that glorious state of not knowing (or caring) I can relate somewhat to the OPs problem. I used to love LOTR until Peter Jackson got ahold of it and made it Peter Jacksons LOTR. You just try and find any new LOTR stuff that ISN'T branded all to hell.

I kind of preferred the picture Middle Earth that I had drawn in my head while reading the books.

Now I pick up the book and Frodo looks like Elijah Wood in my mind...

 Lynata wrote:

What? No. I think you should read the various statements of the authors again.

Finally found the quote I was looking for. Turns out it was neither of those, it was Laurie Goulding.

Source:
http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=920&view=findpost&p=22087853

Of particular note is the bit about how canon specifically regarding the Horus Heresy works,

As for the Horus Heresy, the canon is evolving too.

It used to be that the only real canon on the HH was the background for 'Adeptus Titanicus' and 'Space Marine'. Then we had Collected Visions, and that became the definitive and true canon. Then the Index Astartes articles added another layer to that, and then the novels began...

As it is, now, the "canon" can be seen informally in this rough hierarchy (with some reasonable wiggle-room, and common sense...)

A-canon:
The HH novels (story)
The FW HH books (military, technical, organisation, battle-specific)
Visions of Heresy (from a future perspective, looking back)

B-canon:
Anything written in a current Codex or supplement for Warhammer 40,000

C-canon:
Anything written in a previous edition of any GW product

Not canon:
White Dwarf
Battle reports
Gaming campaigns/events, even those run at/by GW