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It seems to me like rigeld is correct, and that a puppeted psyker should indeed be able to manifest a witchfire power.

To lock my vote in for rigeld's theory I'd need more proof. I'm with him 100% that if the psyker can manifest a witchfire power then puppet master can be used to manifest that power. However, for a psker to be available to manifest that power it must be the psyker's shooting phase. He has made the supposition that his shooting phase becomes the target psyker's shooting phase while puppet master is active. I would need to be shown how the game defines the psyker's shooting phase and would need some sort of evidence to support that supposition. With out evidence to support this supposition it is a RAI argument and is no more or less valid then the competing theory that the psyker's shooting phase will always be its owner's shooting phase and that puppet master only allows for an out of sequence shooting attack not unlike over-watch.

If it's your model, and it's your shooting phase, is it the psykers shooting phase? Is there any other way to define it?

I'd like to get some numerical data on where the community stands on this issue. To that end, I've posted a poll here on the issue, since there seems to be some contention.

I'm gonna have to side with rigeld on this one.

-You have permission to make a shooting attack with the model
-The models is yours for all intents and purposes regarding that shooting attack
-It is your shooting phase therefore it is your models shooting phase for all intents and purposes regarding that shooting attack
-Manifesting a Witchfire is a shooting attack which can be used by your model during your shooting phase.

"Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon"

Manifesting witchfire = firing an Assault weapon
You are permitted to fire an assault weapon = You are permitted to Manifest a witchfire

Any extra rules that might be involved in the process of firing a assault weapon are incidental and irrelevant regarding permission to use the weapon.
Any extra rules that might be involved in the process of Manifesting witchfire are incidental and irrelevant regarding permission to use the power.

That a psychic test must be made, warp charge spent, etc is just part of the process of firing that shooting attack. It seems no different to me than rolling scatter, gets hot or any number of special rules that may be associated with any particular shooting attack.

Ok. Here's one, humour me here.

I puppet master my opponents model, who is a psyker, and I use this model to cast a witchfire, puppet master. Can I then use this model to puppet master a second model of my opponents? as his psyker acts as if it is my model. Largely pointless, but entirely hilarious.

Belly wrote:
Ok. Here's one, humour me here.

I puppet master my opponents model, who is a psyker, and I use this model to cast a witchfire, puppet master. Can I then use this model to puppet master a second model of my opponents? as his psyker acts as if it is my model. Largely pointless, but entirely hilarious.

I see no problem with this.

Edit: In fact I encourage it

It would be hilarious if you puppet mastered your opponent's Warlord that the warlord trait that made it count as a scoring unit, and it was on a Skyfire nexus, so you would have Skyfire to use Puppet Master against one of their Flyers, and then use said Flyer to blow up another Flyer.

I agree with Rigeld. I think that FAQ was to disallow using witchfire as overwatch shots, not to prevent puppet mastered model from using a witchfire ability.

Yep, I have to agree with Rigeld on this. It's a shooting attack, you can use it.

I'm 100% onboard with the 'you can use the Witchfire':

The model is yours for the duration of the power.
The model can cast a witchfire in leiu of a shooting attack.
It IS the model's shooting phase as the model currently is under your control.

Fairy nuff I can tell when an Idea is unpopular

Not much more to say than I disagree with the turn/phase changes

 Nem wrote:
Fairy nuff I can tell when an Idea is unpopular

Not much more to say than I disagree with the turn/phase changes

Your position isn't just "unpopular" it's not supported by actual rules.
If you could cite rules support that would help. I've shown why it is the Psyker's shooting phase - you disagree with that. Show your work.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Fairy nuff I can tell when an Idea is unpopular

Not much more to say than I disagree with the turn/phase changes

Your position isn't just "unpopular" it's not supported by actual rules.
If you could cite rules support that would help. I've shown why it is the Psyker's shooting phase - you disagree with that. Show your work.

Page 8 p2

The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army

Page 9 (throughout)

one player will move and fight with his forces, and the their opponent will move and fight. This process is the repeated..... During his turn, a player can usually move and fight once with each of his units. For convenience and flow of game play we divide a players turn into three main phases: Movement, Shooting and Assault.... helps keep track of what is going on and makes it easier to know when one player's actions are over and your opponent can start his turn

Phase related
Page 12 p1

we split up the firing so that each players force firers during the shooting phase of his own turn

I think were all pretty comfortable with those rules normally, this means under normal circumstances we have (omitting sub phases under assault);



From the cited we know a phase within your turn is referred to as 'your phase' or 'his own phase'. What limitations or what is meant at all by 'during a model's shooting phase' is not well defined in any area, models don't have phases, and its not a common wording throughout the rules all together. Most are phrased 'in the shooting phase' or such, rather than specifying which shooting phase - though this is not unique to Psychic powers, a few special rules also contain this phrasing (more commonly written as 'can do X in 'Its' shooting phase'). The models shooting phase, is the same shooting phase as my other models, its my shooting phase under my turn.

Assuming then I am Player 1..

Diagram contains phases with general permission to cast what Psychic Powers.
What muddies the waters at this point is there is still an ongoing debate on Shooting Phase rules for the duration of Overwatch, don't want to cross into that too much but in general, shooting phase abilities are accepted in Overwatch as you are permitted to use the rules for shooting, possibly due to some badly written rules, possibly due to those rules being particular to a shooting attack rather than the actual shooting phase, in which case its still bad writing. The exception to this being Witchfires. I can use rules and special rules particular to that phase only, but not those. It's possible the wording in the section is written like it is for a reason, that manifestation is more restrictive than other general rules, where we normally just ignore when we are given permission to use.

Puppet Master;
So under Puppet Master we can make a shooting attack. Another ill defined Item, one which is probably best defined by the actions within the shooting sequence, on page 12 of the rule book. You have permission to make a shooting attack as if it were your own model. Under the shooting sequence this is...

1.Nominate a unit to shoot
Which is already fulfilled by the power.
2. Choose a target, resolved as your model
3. Roll to hit, resolved as your model
4.Roll to wound, resolved as your model
5. Allocate wounds and remove casualties, resolved as your model

And that's it. Stating it's your model (for the purpose of the shooting attack) and it's your shooting phase, therefore its the models shooting phase is a leap. Its not a massive leap, but it is there. Puppet master does not require you crossing into the rules for Player Turns and phases to complete a shooting attack, you do not have permission to change those as if it is your model, its your model for the shooting attack and shooting related rules only. Manifestation of a power is not a shooting or shooting phase dependant permission, it's dependant on the Player Turn and Phases.

On the pivot of the issue, I don't believe that permission is carried over to Turn 2, Player 2's turn, Shooting phase through what you can do in the wording of puppet master. While you own the model, you only own it for the rules surrounding making a shooting attack, and the Psyker's Shooting phase is not a part of those. In general, I like to take the PP section with a pinch of salt, its the focus of a fair amount of general FAQ's, and not all of which are expected.

rigeld2 wrote:
If it's your model, and it's your shooting phase, is it the psykers shooting phase? Is there any other way to define it?

Pg 8 would seem to indicate it can't be your model, Puppet Master just has you make decisions for it as if it were your model. So yeah, there is another way to define it.

Unless you can prove that the psyker's shooting phase will change to the opposing player's shooting phase while it is a victim of puppet master then your opinion, while very popular, is not supported by actual rules.

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
If it's your model, and it's your shooting phase, is it the psykers shooting phase? Is there any other way to define it?

Pg 8 would seem to indicate it can't be your model, Puppet Master just has you make decisions for it as if it were your model. So yeah, there is another way to define it.

Unless you can prove that the psyker's shooting phase will change to the opposing player's shooting phase while it is a victim of puppet master then your opinion, while very popular, is not supported by actual rules.

So you're not allowing it to make "a shooting attack as if it was one of your models"? By disallowing something one of your models is able to do, you are breaking that rule.

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're not allowing it to make "a shooting attack as if it was one of your models"? By disallowing something one of your models is able to do, you are breaking that rule.

No, I'm not allowing it manifest a witch fire power outside of its shooting phase. Its your opinion that the psyker's shooting phase becomes your shooting phase while its a puppet. You need to support that opinion with the actual rules. You have made no attempt to do so, and until you can support that opinion its no better or worse then any other competing opinion on the subject.

 Nem wrote:
Page 8 p2

The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army

Which conflicts and is therefore overridden by the Puppet Master rules.

The models shooting phase, is the same shooting phase as my other models, its my shooting phase under my turn.

Correct.

It's possible the wording in the section is written like it is for a reason, that manifestation is more restrictive than other general rules, where we normally just ignore when we are given permission to use.

It's possible but an assumption.

Puppet Master;
So under Puppet Master we can make a shooting attack. Another ill defined Item, one which is probably best defined by the actions within the shooting sequence, on page 12 of the rule book. You have permission to make a shooting attack as if it were your own model. Under the shooting sequence this is...

1.Nominate a unit to shoot
Which is already fulfilled by the power.
2. Choose a target, resolved as your model
3. Roll to hit, resolved as your model
4.Roll to wound, resolved as your model
5. Allocate wounds and remove casualties, resolved as your model

And that's it.

You missed a step - deciding what weapon to fire.

Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase.

Which must be done before choosing a target - because you have to know what range to check to make sure the target is valid.
Since Witchfires have a range and are fired as Assault Weapons, this must be where you decide to manifest a Witchfire.

Stating it's your model (for the purpose of the shooting attack) and it's your shooting phase, therefore its the models shooting phase is a leap. Its not a massive leap, but it is there.

It's not a leap - you even just stated exactly how it works.
It is my model.
It is my shooting phase.
My models share my shooting phase. What other possibility is there? It's not the model's shooting phase?

Puppet master does not require you crossing into the rules for Player Turns and phases to complete a shooting attack, you do not have permission to change those as if it is your model, its your model for the shooting attack and shooting related rules only. Manifestation of a power is not a shooting or shooting phase dependant permission, it's dependant on the Player Turn and Phases.

The bolded is an assumption. Even if it were true, manifesting a witchfire is a shooting attack.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon

Unless you can show how firing an Assault weapon isn't a shooting attack...
Puppet Master doesn't "require" it, no. But it forces it by making the victim your model - not just for the purposes of the shooting attack, but for the duration of the shooting attack.

On the pivot of the issue, I don't believe that permission is carried over to Turn 2, Player 2's turn, Shooting phase through what you can do in the wording of puppet master. While you own the model, you only own it for the rules surrounding making a shooting attack, and the Psyker's Shooting phase is not a part of those. In general, I like to take the PP section with a pinch of salt, its the focus of a fair amount of general FAQ's, and not all of which are expected.

So you're arguing intent?
And I'd like you to answer - when is a witchfire manifested? Let me help:

Different psychic powers are used at different stages in the turn; some powers are used at the start of the turn, others are used at the start of a particular phase, or might replace a model's normal action within that phase.

Okay, let's look at Witchfires specifically since that's pretty vague.

Witchfire powers aer[sic] manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

When do you fire a weapon?

During the Shooting phase,a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

Hmmm... that's not completely clear I guess. Let's go deeper!

All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot.

I hope you'd agree that firing == shooting.
So from that we know - for a fact - that you fire weapons during shooting attacks, and make shooting attacks during "the Shooting Phase".
We know - for a fact - that Witchfires are manifested instead of firing a weapon. Remember, we fire weapons during shooting attacks.
We know that you can only nominate one of your units to shoot, as you pointed out.

We have permission to make a shooting attack with our model which can only be done in our shooting phase.
We have permission to manifest witchfires instead of making a shooting attack.
You are attempting to deny that permission. Please cite a specific denial. Nothing you have said yet is a denial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you're not allowing it to make "a shooting attack as if it was one of your models"? By disallowing something one of your models is able to do, you are breaking that rule.

No, I'm not allowing it manifest a witch fire power outside of its shooting phase. Its your opinion that the psyker's shooting phase becomes your shooting phase while its a puppet. You need to support that opinion with the actual rules. You have made no attempt to do so, and until you can support that opinion its no better or worse then any other competing opinion on the subject.

If it is not the model's shooting phase it cannot actually make a shooting attack - since that's when they're made.
I have made attempts to do so. I can't help if you ignore the rules. A witchfire is a shooting attack. You're denying permission to make that shooting attack and haven't cited any rules as to why.

I will throw a huge question out there then also. If I were to say puppet master a Paladin or any other unit which has brotherhood of psykers. How does this work out? Could I force him to use the witchfire since it only requires one model to cast it, but it counts as the whole squad is casting? This could be beneficial against a lot of things because you could burn the grey knights warp charge the turn you charge them so they can't activate weapons or hammerhand that turn.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its a bit of a grey area, and rule of cool I'd probobly allow it,

for sure


You have to manifest the psychic power, hallucination doesn't give you this ability.


Edit: puppet master not hallucination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

icefire78 wrote:
I will throw a huge question out there then also. If I were to say puppet master a Paladin or any other unit which has brotherhood of psykers. How does this work out? Could I force him to use the witchfire since it only requires one model to cast it, but it counts as the whole squad is casting? This could be beneficial against a lot of things because you could burn the grey knights warp charge the turn you charge them so they can't activate weapons or hammerhand that turn.

If you can cast a psychic power with the witchfire subtype why can't you cast blessings?

Why allow one but not the other? Both need the permission to activate psychic powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Yep, I have to agree with Rigeld on this. It's a shooting attack, you can use it.

Smite isn't a shooting attack.

Smite is a psychic shooting attack.

Fragile wrote:
Smite is a psychic shooting attack.

Smite's a witchfire psychic power that manifests a shooting attack, disagree?

Edit: Apparently my BRB does, quoting a couple lines it makes the argument clear in the opposite direction I was arguing:

"Note that, as a witchfire is a shooting attack a psyker embarked on a vehicle can target an enemy outside that vehicle by using a fire point"

"manifesting witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)." - which is realy RAI as it's making clear they are assault not heavy or rapid fire etc.

 Aijec wrote:

icefire78 wrote:
I will throw a huge question out there then also. If I were to say puppet master a Paladin or any other unit which has brotherhood of psykers. How does this work out? Could I force him to use the witchfire since it only requires one model to cast it, but it counts as the whole squad is casting? This could be beneficial against a lot of things because you could burn the grey knights warp charge the turn you charge them so they can't activate weapons or hammerhand that turn.

If you can cast a psychic power with the witchfire subtype why can't you cast blessings?

Why allow one but not the other? Both need the permission to activate psychic powers.

What phase is it? When do you manifest witchfires? When do you manifest blessings?

 Crimson wrote:
Yep, I have to agree with Rigeld on this. It's a shooting attack, you can use it.

Smite isn't a shooting attack.

Actual rules disagree - all witchfires are shooting attacks as they count as firing a weapon.