How to "fix" tac squads.

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**Veteran Sergeant**

raiden wrote:
yes yes, but I don't like SW fluff or models no offense to any SW players out here!

They play with Space Wolves rules, and don't use the models, lol.

**AlmightyWalrus**

namiel wrote:
If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

There's this thing called a Crusader Squad. What would you give Chapter Tactics: Black Templars in exchange for everyone else getting what is supposed to be a BT thing?

**ZebioLizard2**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
namiel wrote:
If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

There's this thing called a Crusader Squad. What would you give Chapter Tactics: Black Templars in exchange for everyone else getting what is supposed to be a BT thing?

The ability to arm the entire squad with heavy chainswords.

**AlmightyWalrus**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
namiel wrote:
If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

There's this thing called a Crusader Squad. What would you give Chapter Tactics: Black Templars in exchange for everyone else getting what is supposed to be a BT thing?

The ability to arm the entire squad with heavy chainswords.

Strength 6 on 20 people in a blob? Now we're talking!

**ZebioLizard2**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
namiel wrote:
If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

There's this thing called a Crusader Squad. What would you give Chapter Tactics: Black Templars in exchange for everyone else getting what is supposed to be a BT thing?

The ability to arm the entire squad with heavy chainswords.

Strength 6 on 20 people in a blob? Now we're talking!

Add Grimaldus, use his Chapter Tactic one turn buff. Enjoy Sweet Rage filled Furious Charge S7 swings.

Though Maybe I should've said Initiates...Nah it's funnier this way, and more like huge Templar Squads filled with Greatswords.

**AlmightyWalrus**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
namiel wrote:
If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

There's this thing called a Crusader Squad. What would you give Chapter Tactics: Black Templars in exchange for everyone else getting what is supposed to be a BT thing?

The ability to arm the entire squad with heavy chainswords.

Strength 6 on 20 people in a blob? Now we're talking!

Add Grimaldus, use his Chapter Tactic one turn buff. Enjoy Sweet Rage filled Furious Charge S7 swings.

Though Maybe I should've said Initiates...Nah it's funnier this way, and more like huge Templar Squads filled with Greatswords.

Grimaldus doesn't have a one-shot Furious Charge, you're thinking of Helbrecht.

**Wilytank**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
raiden wrote:
yes yes, but I don't like SW fluff or models no offense to any SW players out here!
They play with Space Wolves rules, and don't use the models, lol.

Not sure why people would rather their marines be wearing pieces of paper on their armor as opposed to the pelts and skins of beasts they've hunted and killed.

**Yonan**

Trophies are what you have done. Papers are what you will do. Running into battle yelling "I killed a wolf!" is far less impressive than "I'm going to purge you heretic scum, even if I die trying!"

**MarsNZ**

I'm a post-human killing machine, look at how much damage I can do to the native species of my homeworld.

What a badass /sarcasm

**raiden**

" we are so cool, we don't need no helmets!"

**anyeri**

"Look, i kill this thing, that was 100 times strongers than you, with my bare hands, make a picture of what gonna happen to you"

**Makumba**

They should get more types of grenades . In the fluff they have EMP ones , rad grenades and mines . Tacs should get an option to take those too.

**Wilytank**

Yonan wrote:
Trophies are what you have done. Papers are what you will do. Running into battle yelling "I killed a wolf!" is far less impressive than "I'm going to purge you heretic scum, even if I die trying!"

Wrong. All it proves is that all you kill is tree which any schmuck can do. Doesn't impress me.

**captsabre**

raiden wrote:
thats it though, hybrids always fail in the face of more specialized, UNLESS they are, man for man, stronger overall.

10 CSM w/ CCW+ bolt pistol and mark of khorne w/ Icon of wrath, (about the same cost as a tac squad kitted with some special weapons) will lose 2-4 guys from double tap from the squad, then at best 1 from overwatch, then proceed to wipe the floor with the tac squad.

a dire avenger unit will keep out of the 12" threat range and easily out run AND out shoot a tac squad.

the problem is the generalist has to be OP (when compared in a point for point, man for man, or what have you) in a the actual game, (not a vaccum). if the generalist cannot be strong enough in the area the specialist unit is weak in, (or, even make use of that weakness) then there is a large problem, and they become less than average.

Tactical marines are a shooty unit. A unit built for close combat is going to beat them. Be grateful that Tacs can hold their own. Especially when you receive ATSKNF and combat squads all for free.

Also, Space Marines do have good other melee units. If your using your tacs for melee, well thats just dumb.

**Tyberos the Red Wake**

MarsNZ wrote:
I'm a post-human killing machine, look at how much damage I can do to the native species of my homeworld.

What a badass /sarcasm

There are no wolves on Fenris.

**Yonan**

captsabre wrote:
Tactical marines are a shooty unit. A unit built for close combat is going to beat them. Be grateful that Tacs can hold their own. Especially when you receive ATSKNF and combat squads all for free.

Also, Space Marines do have good other melee units. If your using your tacs for melee, well thats just dumb.

They *are* a shooty unit, but they shouldn't be.

They hold ground; provide fire support and charge into bloody melees, as the ever-changing theatre of war dictates.

From GWs own description of Tactical marines. If you think tacs shouldn't be usable for melee, well that's just being ignorant of the stated design goal of the unit, and ignorant of the upgrade path of space marines - tactical marines *were* assault marines. There's no logical reason they wouldn't carry a CCW as many other MEQs do who still manage to carry bolters and bolt pistols.

**tvih**

I wouldn't mind having Split Fire to be able to use the heavy weapon choice more effectively. Tactically flexible my butt, when you can't even even split your fire optimally!

Technically tacticals should also have a CCW - they all have at least combat knives fluff-wise as far as I know - but well, no surprise that that didn't happen. And admittedly that could've made assault marines an even worse choice. Still, instead we have two subpar units rather than one

**BrianDavion**

I don't mind tac squads, they work fine, more or less, but I agree with those who say that there is a fundamental disconnect between the rules and the fluff.

**ZebioLizard2**

They *are* a shooty unit, but they shouldn't be.

They've *always* been a shooty unit, even back in 2nd edition.

**captsabre**

From GWs own description of Tactical marines. If you think tacs shouldn't be usable for melee, well that's just being ignorant of the stated design goal of the unit, and ignorant of the upgrade path of space marines - tactical marines *were* assault marines. There's no logical reason they wouldn't carry a CCW as many other MEQs do who still manage to carry bolters and bolt pistols.

Tacs are usable for melee. They have a solid stat line (WS4 and S4) for combat, you are well within your rights to stick a power weapon on the sarge, and you get ATSKNF as well, so you cant get run out of combat.

That said, an optional CCW for 2 points seems fair, if you really wanted to go for close combat. But they are quite fine as they are. As a CSM player id swap my choice to get a CCW for ATSKNF anyday of the damn week.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Wilytank wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
raiden wrote:
yes yes, but I don't like SW fluff or models no offense to any SW players out here!
They play with Space Wolves rules, and don't use the models, lol.

Not sure why people would rather their marines be wearing pieces of paper on their armor as opposed to the pelts and skins of beasts they've hunted and killed.

I think most peoples' dislike of the Space Wolves models stems from just killing the wolf thing to death.

Wolfy wolf wolf wolf Vikings.

If Space Wolves had stayed the way they used to be, where the wolf thing was a minor aesthetic instead of overkilled, it would be a different story.
Best:

Fine:

Stupid:

Cliff's Notes: Space Wolves that look like Space Marines but with some wolf cues, cool. Vikings that look like they have some Space Marine cues are stupid.

**Bronzefists42**

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
MarsNZ wrote:
I'm a post-human killing machine, look at how much damage I can do to the native species of my homeworld.

What a badass /sarcasm

There are no wolves on Fenris.

Just animals that look, sound and act like wolves

**namiel**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
namiel wrote:
If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

There's this thing called a Crusader Squad. What would you give Chapter Tactics: Black Templars in exchange for everyone else getting what is supposed to be a BT thing?

I would have it be one or the other.

One marine may take one of the following from cc weapons or assault weapons or heavy weapons

if 10 man may take one weapon from cc weapons or assault weapons or heavy weapons but may not have 2 marines take weapons from the same catagory. ex you cant take 2 plasma cannons or 2 power weapons

**kronk**

Tactical Marines are the second best troops squads in the game.

The best are Crusader Squads. SONS OF DORN!

**raiden**

actually, I would dare to say BT are more sons of seigsmund (did I spell that right?) as Dorn himself was MUCH more like Guilliman than any other primarch.