Help me understand why one works and the other doesn't?

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**Agent_Tremolo**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Epic, Necromunda and even Mordhiem are all like the Squats: there were a few people who played, maybe even a few more who have ever seen them played, but for the most part most just knew about them because they heard about it online.

So of course all these people who have no ties to the actual games cry the loudest when they leave, despite never buying anything for them.

True thing.

Necromunda, Mordheim and Blood Bowl may have worked, though, but GW failed to make a business out of them (or simply wasn't interested).

Skirmish games rely on one thing: Offering a huge variety of options beyond the basic game. Part of the fun in Infinity or Malifaux is trying new combinations from the endless stream of new releases. I started with a fusilier horde before I decided to ally in some devas and tactbots to try a Neoterran sectorial. Then I added in a Jotum. Then tried a more elite approach with swiss guards and hexas. Then switched over to Aleph entirely. Then my friends and I lost track

Thing is, even if I could have kept running my 300 points of fusiliers, there was a world of sexy miniatures and cool new rules and options to choose from. Even if the entry costs are low, skirmish games must keep changing in order to keep their player base engaged. Necromunda, Mordheim and Blood Bowl had most options contained within the starter box and a few blisters at best, and sadly never expanded beyond that.

**3orangewhips**

Necromunda was a great game with a frustrating set of unconvertable models. You upgraded your gang but it was nigh-impossible to represent that, which ended in a lot of "counts as" arguments.

If they had access to the plastics capabilities they have today, it would be a big success.

Production longevity /= quality.

To qualify: GW puts out lots of what are essentially board games- support them for a year or two and then say, "There you go." It's been a staple of design for them for a long time. I guess if one of those games had the unmitigated success of a 40K, they'd go with it, but I doubt that's their goal.

Which is not to say they aren't trying to make a profit; of course they are. There's nothing wrong with that. If it offends, simply do not buy the products. If enough people agree, they will change or go under. There is no altruistic mandate to protect any sort of long-term gaming culture. While I wouldn't make the same decisions they do, I accept I am without influence and just go with it.

EDIT: Dang there/their

**MadmanMSU**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Peregrine, with all the fights about getting people to play FW, I'd have to say apparently some parts of the community did need this to open up that option. If anything that's more of a comment of the state of parts of the community than on GW.

I don't think this book is changing that. All the people that did not want to play with/against super heavies before this book still won't now, and all the people that wanted to use super heavies in normal games before this book still will. Do you really think that a large part of the community will magically change its mind because of this book?

These are the two situations I envision:

Situation 1
Player A: "Hey guys, this new book says we can use super heavies in our normal games now!"
Player B: "You mean like we've already been doing? Why pay for that book?"

vs.

Situation 2
Player A: "Hey guys, this new book says we can use super heavies in our normal games now!"
Player B: "Nope, still don't want to play with/against that."

**solkan**

The other problem with Mordheim is how you played Mordheim was:

1. Get Mordheim rulebook.
2. Buy WHFB troop box, and build some models.

Whether or not that was the official model line. So even if people were playing it, it was hardly visible to the bean counters.

**Selym**

Aipoch wrote:
Ok, is there any reason that doesnt boil down to GW can make more money on larger models?

Out of all honest answers, no.

Aipoch wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as an edit, I disagree that they are different games. The rules are different, but they each represent the same thing. Warhammer 40000 with titans, tanks, formations, and everything in between is nothing but an oversized and dummed down version of epic/arma.

Epic 40k was made long before Apoc, with the idea that they would make it affordable for players to recreate huge battles, such as the third war for armageddon.

Then Gee Dubs snorted dollar-bill cocaine, and went on a money binge, dumping Epic by the wayside to make room for Apocalypse, whose main boardroom plan was "sell big gak for even bigger £££".

**Agent_Tremolo**

Selym wrote:Then Gee Dubs snorted dollar-bill cocaine, and went on a money binge, dumping Epic by the wayside to make room for Apocalypse, whose main boardroom plan was "sell big gak for even bigger £££".

Actually back in 1997 people complained that GW was shoving an incompatible scale down their throats in an effort to get them hooked to another game. 6mm minis were thought too pricey for their value. Titans were almost as expensive as a 40k tank, and the plastic minis were universally decried as ugly and undetailed. Some folks even thought Epic to be part of an elaborate plan to "kill" 40k.

Also, with the memory of huge 40k battle scenes such as WD's Big Toof River still fresh, quite a lot of players began to wonder if 40k could be used to stage large-scale battles, using the minis people and clubs already owned instead of having to buy into an entirely different game in a different scale.

Hence, Apocalypse.

**Tactical_Genius**

To be fair, my local GW does do mordheim and necromunda campaigns and stuff every now and again!

**Insurgency Walker**

Peregrine wrote:
ClassicCarraway wrote:
Why is it that GW is called to task for every single release as a "money grab" when they are doing what EVERY (successful) business does?

Because GW is sacrificing the quality of the game and long-term growth in a desperate attempt to sell something right now. Good companies get money by making quality products that you want to buy. GW, on the other hand, is just repackaging the same old stuff and asking us to buy it again. The new releases are garbage, and the only reason to buy (or even bother to pirate) them is so you can win easy games with your titan before everyone in your area gets tired of 40k and moves on to a better game.

Escalation came about because players wanted to use those big shiny super heavies they spent a mint on in regular games because Apoc games are just not feasible for alot of players.

No, it came about because GW had an open release slot but didn't want to spend the time and effort to make a real book. People who want to use their superheavies in a normal game could already say "hey, can I use my Baneblade". They don't need to spend $30 on two pages of fluff, some re-printed Apocalypse rules they probably already own, and a paragraph saying "you can use your Baneblade". The only reason to buy Escalation is if you haven't read the reviews and think it's a real book. And once you make that mistake you probably aren't going to make the mistake of buying another GW book.

So true Peregrine
Cause how did people field baneblades and titans before Apoc?

Not to mention spearhead, which was a white dwarf supplement that included, wait for it....super heavies!
I purchased the ebook and wished it had the quality and depth of rules content that spearhead had.
Alas I have to sit and ponder why I don't paint my armies, why my new Inquisition team can't ride in a Arvus lighter, or if it's time to change my work shirt.