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Just going to keep this simple and short. Why does Apocolypse work, and Epic/Armageddon doesn't? Why does Cityfight work, but Necromunda doesn't? Why remake Apocolypse at all if you were going to make Escalation?

I'm not sure what you are asking here.

But I think the answer you are looking for is that Epic and Apocalypse are different games. Necromunda and cityfight are different games. GW will do anything to grab monies off people.

Because you can play Epic for fifty bucks.

 Aipoch wrote:
Why does Apocolypse work, and Epic/Armageddon doesn't?

Because Apocalypse uses bigger models that cost more money.

Why does Cityfight work, but Necromunda doesn't?

Cityfight doesn't really work, or at least not very many people ever play it.

Why remake Apocolypse at all if you were going to make Escalation?

Because then they can sell you Apocalypse, and then sell you Apocalypse again with a different title.

Ok, is there any reason that doesnt boil down to GW can make more money on larger models?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as an edit, I disagree that they are different games. The rules are different, but they each represent the same thing. Warhammer 40000 with titans, tanks, formations, and everything in between is nothing but an oversized and dummed down version of epic/arma.

I would say cityfight is more of a local scene thing, but it gets played a lot around me.

 Aipoch wrote:
Ok, is there any reason that doesnt boil down to GW can make more money on larger models?

Nope.

Aipoch wrote:
Ok, is there any reason that doesnt boil down to GW can make more money on larger models?

Peregrine wrote:
Nope.

QFT. It's all about the money at this point, sad but true.

 Aipoch wrote:
Ok, is there any reason that doesnt boil down to GW can make more money on larger models?

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha
I hope you're not serious

So it has nothing to do with rules, smaller models, or anything of the sort...but everything to do with nothing more than more money for larger models, at the added expense of practicality?

 Aipoch wrote:
So it has nothing to do with rules, smaller models, or anything of the sort...but everything to do with nothing more than more money for larger models, at the added expense of practicality?

Ding ding ding! Just remember that and everything, and I mean everything, that GW does makes some sort of sense.

It could be that GW simply didn't move nearly enough superheavy kits with Apoc and are trying to cover their losses with this book.

Now I'm not exactly a hardcore GW apologist, but this is kind of ridiculous. Name one for-profit corporation/company/business that ISN'T motivated by making money for everything it does? Does anybody here honestly believe Privateer Press or any other game company releases new books or models just on a whim with no expectation to make money? Even the free stuff is motivated to make money (release free rules, sale more models). Why is it that GW is called to task for every single release as a "money grab" when they are doing what EVERY (successful) business does? Do you complain at the random passer-by for breathing air or obeying the laws of gravity?

Escalation came about because players wanted to use those big shiny super heavies they spent a mint on in regular games because Apoc games are just not feasible for alot of players. So yes, GW released it to make money, but they only thought they could make money on it because a significant portion of their customer base ASKED for it. Curse GW for giving their customers what they wanted, how dare they!!!!

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Why is it that GW is called to task for every single release as a "money grab" when they are doing what EVERY (successful) business does?

Because GW is sacrificing the quality of the game and long-term growth in a desperate attempt to sell something right now. Good companies get money by making quality products that you want to buy. GW, on the other hand, is just repackaging the same old stuff and asking us to buy it again. The new releases are garbage, and the only reason to buy (or even bother to pirate) them is so you can win easy games with your titan before everyone in your area gets tired of 40k and moves on to a better game.

Escalation came about because players wanted to use those big shiny super heavies they spent a mint on in regular games because Apoc games are just not feasible for alot of players.

No, it came about because GW had an open release slot but didn't want to spend the time and effort to make a real book. People who want to use their superheavies in a normal game could already say "hey, can I use my Baneblade". They don't need to spend $30 on two pages of fluff, some re-printed Apocalypse rules they probably already own, and a paragraph saying "you can use your Baneblade". The only reason to buy Escalation is if you haven't read the reviews and think it's a real book. And once you make that mistake you probably aren't going to make the mistake of buying another GW book.

"The only reason to buy Escalation is if you haven't read the reviews and think it's a real book. And once you make that mistake you probably aren't going to make the mistake of buying another GW book. "

Or if you don't already have Apocalypse.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
"The only reason to buy Escalation is if you haven't read the reviews and think it's a real book. And once you make that mistake you probably aren't going to make the mistake of buying another GW book. "

Or if you don't already have Apocalypse.

Or you like Apoc, but want to be able to smaller games with similar rules, but in a more "controlled" fashion. Or you can't play Apoc very often and want other ways to field your superheavies.

While this, like everything any company does, is to make money, I do think it was also done with the intentions of adding more options to the game, even if they aren't very balanced. GW has clearly shown that, at least at the moment, the game is more about giving you a big tool kit to do what you like with, instead of a hard and fast ruleset that must be played a particular way.

Could they do both? Yes and no. Yes they could, but no, not with this current system. To do both 40k needs to be built for both, and until it is, complaining about it is like picking on a portly child who is horrible at dodgeball but a great singer. Sure he sucks at dodgeball, that's not where his talents lie, and even then they'd be limited by his physical abilities. Likewise 40k's competitive balance is awful, but it's strengths aren't there, they're in how it can be used to tell stories, create events, and so on. And similarly it's limited by the way it is. We'd need a new 40k to be good at more than just what it is.

Maybe in 7th.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Why is it that GW is called to task for every single release as a "money grab" when they are doing what EVERY (successful) business does?

Because GW is sacrificing the quality of the game and long-term growth in a desperate attempt to sell something right now. Good companies get money by making quality products that you want to buy. GW, on the other hand, is just repackaging the same old stuff and asking us to buy it again.

So...GW is activision then?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

See, I find extremely ironic that Epic is now lauded as GW's crowning moment of brilliance. Back in the day, it was a fiasco of equally epic proportions.

I bought a sizeable Ork army and managed to get five, maybe six games out of it - All of them with the same friend I had split the contents of the starter box with. Everyone else seemed to think it was a dumbed-down version of 40k stuffed with ugly, expensive miniatures, or another ploy to suck their wallets dry.

There was no evil scheme on Epic's demise. It was a good game but noone would play it. That simple.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or you like Apoc, but want to be able to smaller games with similar rules, but in a more "controlled" fashion. Or you can't play Apoc very often and want other ways to field your superheavies.

Those aren't reasons because you don't need to buy Escalation to do that. Once you have Apocalypse you have everything you need to use superheavies in normal games. Allow me to make a better "use your superheavies" expansion:

"You may include a Lord of War choice in your primary detachment. A Lord of War detachment can contain up to 3 HP worth of superheavies for each full 500 points in the game's point limit. Models with STR D weapons are not permitted."

There, now you don't have to buy a book.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Or you like Apoc, but want to be able to smaller games with similar rules, but in a more "controlled" fashion. Or you can't play Apoc very often and want other ways to field your superheavies.

Those aren't reasons because you don't need to buy Escalation to do that. Once you have Apocalypse you have everything you need to use superheavies in normal games. Allow me to make a better "use your superheavies" expansion:

"You may include a Lord of War choice in your primary detachment. A Lord of War detachment can contain up to 3 HP worth of superheavies for each full 500 points in the game's point limit. Models with STR D weapons are not permitted."

There, now you don't have to buy a book.

I never said anyone had to buy the book, just a reason they may want to buy the book. Believe it or not, not everyone plays superheavies to rock D-weapon spam all over the table, and not everyone wants too. Additionally some people actually want such supplements for the alternate missions (I'm fond of the "Defiant to the End" Gauntlet Mission which puts 1k of a person's army against a lone Lord of War and depending on if or when it falls determines the victory result) and warlord traits.

And then you get the rare collectors who collect every book no matter what.

Either way the game is only hurt by this if we assume people can "force" each other to play against Lords of War, a fact we have argued against the claims were made against FW players, and are just as untrue now. No one can be forced to play against this book, and no one needs this book, but if they want it, then there is stuff in there that may interest people for reasons other than "I'm bringing 2x D-Weapons to the game trolololololololol!"

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I never said anyone had to buy the book, just a reason they may want to buy the book.

And, again, if those are your reasons you still don't want the book. Well, you want it initially because it seems cool, but then you realize that it's a zero-content mess and a complete waste of money. You only buy it if you're unfortunate enough to click the "buy" button before reading some reviews and realizing that it's a scam.

Either way the game is only hurt by this if we assume people can "force" each other to play against Lords of War, a fact we have argued against the claims were made against FW players, and are just as untrue now. No one can be forced to play against this book, and no one needs this book, but if they want it, then there is stuff in there that may interest people for reasons other than "I'm bringing 2x D-Weapons to the game trolololololololol!"

I think you're missing the point here. Escalation isn't just bad for balance, it's a bad book in general. The lack of content in the book is a joke. You get a few basic rules that any random player could replace with "hey, can I use my Baneblade today", a couple pages of bland fluff about how awesome big tanks are, a direct copy-paste of the Apocalypse rules you probably already own, and the same boring catalog pictures of the Baneblade/Stompa/etc that you can find on the GW website. Unless you're the kind of obsessive fanboy who has to buy everything with the GW name on it there is no reason to buy this book.

And you of all people should understand this given how often you argue in favor of house rules and making your own content. This entire "book" is based on the idea that you can charge players $30 to put a stamp of "officialness" on the same old house rules that everyone already knows about.

Peregrine, with all the fights about getting people to play FW, I'd have to say apparently some parts of the community did need this to open up that option. If anything that's more of a comment of the state of parts of the community than on GW.

That still doesn't make the book any less of a scam. GW could have fixed this by issuing a free update pdf that said "you can take superheavies in normal games now", which would take about a minute to write and publish. Instead we get one or two sentences of real content and a bunch of garbage thrown together to boost the page count and hopefully trick a few people into paying for the "book".

I really don't think it was meant to "trick" anyone. Someone thought it was a really good idea, put it together likely in their free time, pitched it and someone else put a $30USD price tag on it.

 Peregrine wrote:

I think you're missing the point here. Escalation isn't just bad for balance, it's a bad book in general. The lack of content in the book is a joke. You get a few basic rules that any random player could replace with "hey, can I use my Baneblade today", a couple pages of bland fluff about how awesome big tanks are, a direct copy-paste of the Apocalypse rules you probably already own, and the same boring catalog pictures of the Baneblade/Stompa/etc that you can find on the GW website. Unless you're the kind of obsessive fanboy who has to buy everything with the GW name on it there is no reason to buy this book.

And you of all people should understand this given how often you argue in favor of house rules and making your own content. This entire "book" is based on the idea that you can charge players $30 to put a stamp of "officialness" on the same old house rules that everyone already knows about.

Or you could just look at it as a cheaper alternative to buying Apocalypse. Lets see, plunk down $80 for a book that I will never use the majority of or $30 for a book that contains the rules for the super heavies that people like out of Apocalypse but with the 40K stamp on it. Its only lacking in content if you already own Apocalypse (and yes, I DO agree that its kind of dirty pool to just reprint rules for the majority of a new book).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

I think you're missing the point here. Escalation isn't just bad for balance, it's a bad book in general. The lack of content in the book is a joke. You get a few basic rules that any random player could replace with "hey, can I use my Baneblade today", a couple pages of bland fluff about how awesome big tanks are, a direct copy-paste of the Apocalypse rules you probably already own, and the same boring catalog pictures of the Baneblade/Stompa/etc that you can find on the GW website. Unless you're the kind of obsessive fanboy who has to buy everything with the GW name on it there is no reason to buy this book.

And you of all people should understand this given how often you argue in favor of house rules and making your own content. This entire "book" is based on the idea that you can charge players $30 to put a stamp of "officialness" on the same old house rules that everyone already knows about.

Or you could just look at it as a cheaper alternative to buying Apocalypse. Lets see, plunk down $80 for a book that I will never use the majority of or $30 for a book that contains the rules for the super heavies that people like out of Apocalypse but with the 40K stamp on it. Its only lacking in content if you already own Apocalypse (and yes, I DO agree that its kind of dirty pool to just reprint rules for the majority of a new book).

Pretty much this. I won't be getting either of the new books and don't have apocalypse. The way games are played here, I'd lean towards getting escalation if I wanted superheavies, as no one here has the number of points needed for a game of apocalypse's caliber. That said, a copy/paste job is rather disappointing.

GW wants you to have have a more intricite wargaming experience, getting the feel of massive army and warmachines going at it.

Or the real reason;

In the beginning, a 40k player might look at the huge Forge World models and think, "I'm not going to buy those. Look how many I'd need to make it worthwhile..."

So now you've got the official, hard cover version of the slippery slope to a collection of superheavy vehicles. "Just buy the one, you can play with it just fine." And you keep playing 40k (and leading others into playing 40k) the whole time...

But now that GW has players buying terrain pieces to field with their armies, you'd think City Fight (a.k.a Even More Terrain Rules) would see a revival.

 Peregrine wrote:
That still doesn't make the book any less of a scam. GW could have fixed this by issuing a free update pdf that said "you can take superheavies in normal games now", which would take about a minute to write and publish. Instead we get one or two sentences of real content and a bunch of garbage thrown together to boost the page count and hopefully trick a few people into paying for the "book".

And if they did that you would be here saying "Maaeeehhhggg... This is just more money grabbing! They put out a free PDF to make you buy an $80 book! Why don't they release the rules in another book for people who don't want all the extra rules!".

Seriously, if you don't want the book, don't buy it. I don't want the full APOC rules, I would rather pay 1/3 less for the rules I do want, and I do want the rules to use some of the lords of war in standard games.

Anyway, Cityfight isn't really played much, but is still available because it is just a book and dose not need much costs to keep it in production. Long tale publishing and all that.

Necromunda and Epic did not have that much of a following, despite what people say. There were not that many people who played them at the time. If there was a large market GW would bring them back. IMO Epic was a fun game.

Epic, Necromunda and even Mordhiem are all like the Squats: there were a few people who played, maybe even a few more who have ever seen them played, but for the most part most just knew about them because they heard about it online.

So of course all these people who have no ties to the actual games cry the loudest when they leave, despite never buying anything for them.