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 Omegus wrote:

Thunderwolves are failed initiates. The "regular" wolves are mutated settlers.

My take on it: Thunderwolves are full grown marines, wolves are mutated initiates.

As soon as you inject someone with the Canis Helix (which, according to Deliverance Lost, includes genetic material from actual wolves, if I am not mistaken) there is a chance of turning them into a Fenrisian Wolf. If the subject survives and become a Space Wolf, he may still fall at any time ("No matter how old or experienced a Wolf grows, many of them are never entirely free from the risk of the Curse, and risk reverting to their bestial state in moments of great stress" from the Lexicanum). Some of them become Wulfen, other become Thunderwolves.

In return, they are "marines +1"

 da001 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Thunderwolves are failed initiates. The "regular" wolves are mutated settlers.

My take on it: Thunderwolves are full grown marines, wolves are mutated initiates.

But then Russ couldn't have been raised by Wolves.

 Zweischneid wrote:

But then Russ couldn't have been raised by Wolves.

Yeah, that's the biggest of the red flags.

>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF>WOLF

Yeah, perhaps if the SW had better fluff writers then they would make a bit more sense.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


They wear wolf pelts, ride wolves and name every damned thing after the animal except there are none on Fenris.

I lol'd, good show.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
I think it is mostly the horrid 5th Edition Codex.

- Space Wolves go womanizing, though Marines are supposed to be asexual.
- Stupid "Space Marines" raised by Wolves "Mowgli"-stuff, even though it doesn't make any sense
- Strange "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" episodes with Space Wolves stealing Thunderhawks for joyrides
- Arbitrary slaughtering of Ecclesiarchy envoys (while having ring-a-round-dances with the Eldar)
- Counter-intuitive gameplay throughout 5th Edition, with an "up-close-and-dirty" army becoming the ultimate gunline.
- the overtly obnoxious Wolf-Lord-with-Wolf-Claw-and-Wolf-Talisman-on-Thunderwolf writing style
- Utterly broken internal balance, nearly as bad as today's Screamerstar and/or Seer Council (and/or the slightly fading Heldrake dominance)
- Etc..


If the Space Wolves Codex get redone by a more capable pair of hands, I am sure they could be redeemed.

The fluff has always been terrible and nonsensical.

I know you have an irrational hatred for Phil Kelly, but don't pretend everything was fine before he came along.

But all this is nothing new. Since as far back as 2nd Edition, the Space Wolves have been the bestest Marines at being the bestest evar. They've been able to equip their troops in absurd ways no-one else could (a squad of terminators with assault cannons, stormshields, AND cyclone missile launchers? On each model? Sure, why not?) been able to do things no-one else could (Long fangs can split their fire and nominate different targets even though no other unit in the game can? Sure, why not?) and have been able to violate the fluff that everyone else has had to abide by (your psykers don't use the Warp to power themselves? Even though everyone else in the whole fething universe does? Sure, why not?).

I like the idea of Space Wolves, but GW's execution of them makes me hate them.

For this reason. My one and only tournament experience involved a Wolf Guard terminator army armed exclusively with assault cannons. Note: this was back in the days where assault cannons were Str 8 and could pump out a maximum of 9 shots. They could just do everything better. AND I play Dark Angels. I think the way they are portrayed in the Horus Heresy books is very interesting, I just wish it had been done earlier and kept consistent.

Why do I dislike them?

They are drunken viking werewolves in space and the counterpoint to the tragic "artistic aesthetes with tortured souls (vampires) in space."

I don't need more than that. If I wanted twilight: the game, I'd go top myself (for wanting Twilight:anything).

 chromedog wrote:
Why do I dislike them?

They are drunken viking werewolves

I'm sold!
But seriously I didn't really like them until I read about Russ breaking Magnus's back over his knee. Now I like them. But then I haven't read much of the ridiculous fluff about them. That could spoil them for me.

I recently read the GK codex and now I never want to look at a GK again. The fluff was so idiotic like a 5 year old with ADD wrote it.

Why was Russ breaking Magnus' back the selling point lol?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Thunderwolves are failed initiates. The "regular" wolves are mutated settlers.

My take on it: Thunderwolves are full grown marines, wolves are mutated initiates.

But then Russ couldn't have been raised by Wolves.

True. I forgot that.
A legend?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Why do I dislike them?

They are drunken viking werewolves

I'm sold!
But seriously I didn't really like them until I read about Russ breaking Magnus's back over his knee. Now I like them. But then I haven't read much of the ridiculous fluff about them. That could spoil them for me.

I recently read the GK codex and now I never want to look at a GK again. The fluff was so idiotic like a 5 year old with ADD wrote it.

One did.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, as this is an off-shoot of the thread immediately preceding it on the forums, I'll try to keep it brief.

Basically, what makes the SW cool to a lot of people, makes every other Imperial faction seem weak and/or incompetent. The SW are allowed to get away with things that would have almost any other faction written out of the setting (because they were exterminated) while drinking and laughing.

Also, they're idiots, but they never pay any actual price for their idiocy. Some people like that, some people don't.

This is a pretty good explanation of the situation. On top of this however, they also just try to be too many (often contradictory) things, and have some absolutely awful writing.

They try to be dark and brooding executioners, while at the same time being total party bros. They try to be "out for the little guy", but also genetically engineered psycho-indoctrinated super soldiers. They try to be total military geniuses, but also drunken pranksters. They try to be werewolves and vicious berzerkers, but also disciplined combined-arms soldiers. During the HH era they're totally serving the Secular Emperor who is working to banish outmoded thoughts of spirits and religion, but they're totally shamanistic. During the HH they totally don't use Psykers because they're bad, they just harness the native power of Fenris... (/spacehipsters)

It not only comes off as absurd but painfully contradictory.

Then we get into pain of their actual writing, with sillyness like firing artillery by smell, and the awful naming schemes (Canis Wolfborn, of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, known also as The Wolf King and Lord of the Wolfkin, who rides the great ThunderWolf Fangir, wielding his Wolfclaws and bearing Wolftooth Necklace, Bearer of the Saga of the Wolfkin, etc further ad nauseum).

Everything about them just reads like bad internet fanfic.

It didn't help that their 5E book also ended up being "SM's+1", with most lists looking like mechanized Iron Warriors gunlines than anything you'd imagine the SW's fielding.


That said, some people love the SW's, they can't get enough, so who knows

Aye,

The other big problem I have with Space Wolves is that they are not Chaos.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but they currently are not portrayed as "Vikings in Space" but rather as "Frat Boys in Space".

Look, Games Workshop knows how to do Vikings- look at Warriors of Chaos They come from the northern wastelands, travel south in long boats, then proceed to rape and pillage everything. This is what Vikings did, this is what they are, and anything pretending to be a Viking should have a similar goal in life.

Now look at Space Wolves. The closest they get to being "Vikings" is that they have silly hair, and get drunk a lot, and also like to wear fur pelts. Basically a Minnesota Vikings Super Fan (although that guy is really awesome, hes not exactly going to go raping and pillaging).

Beyond superficially parading about as Vikings, unlike Warriors of Chaos, Space Wolves regularly do things like stick up for the little guy- like that squabble with the inquisition where the Wolves were sticking up for the Guardsmen. There isn't anything wrong with defending the little guy, its actually quite noble, but its not something a VIKING would EVER do. Space Wolves are "Bros" through and through.

If you want Vikings in Space, Huron Blackheart and the Red Corsairs are this in spades. They raid supply lines and planets, pillaging as they go. Hes a ruthless and skilled general. The point is, Vikings in space should not be a Mary Sue Space Marine chapter, they should be ruthless, and actually live up to the name. That is why I think Space Wolves should have always been a Chaos Codex instead of a Loyalist Codex, it would allow them to embrace their bloodthristy nature, explain their deviations from the Imperial Laws that would otherwise excommunicate them, and just in general allow them to have an identity that doesn't make people want to throw up in their mouths.

I love them because of their epic beards. They are the only Space Marines manly enough to have hair. All other space marines are just bald, castrated pussies
Also they are Vikings. Vikings are cool. Everyone who does not think Vikings are cool deserves to be raped, pillaged and burned

Also, I like metal music, and Space Wolves are easily the most metal chapter (along with the Iron Hands, who I love for the same reason)

Beards=Vikings=Metal=AWESOME!

I do imagine some people dislike them for though. They do get everything cheaper than ordinary marines.
The codex could do with a rewrite imo. More balance and less wolf- -wolf -fang -claw please. The wolf thing is nice, but this much wolf is plain silly.

 Psienesis wrote:
Because that is how authors write them. This is a phenomenon called "plot armor". They're actually one of the smallest chapters, holding only a single, feral planet in the galactic west. They're Vikings in Space. Which is... kind of silly, really, but also cool.

And that is plain nonsense. They are invariably described as one of the largest chapters. They do not stick to the '1000 marine limit'. Also, like almost all SM chapters, they have only a single homeworld (and it is a deathworld, not a feral world), but they are also mentioned as maintaining a protectorate of worlds loyal to the SW around Fenris (again, like most chapters do).

 Zweischneid wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Thunderwolves are failed initiates. The "regular" wolves are mutated settlers.

My take on it: Thunderwolves are full grown marines, wolves are mutated initiates.

But then Russ couldn't have been raised by Wolves.

I always assumed that the 'wolves' he was raised by were the descendants of the original imperial settlers of Fenris. IIRC there was a little bit in one of the HH books suggesting that genetic augmentation was much more commonplace pre-emps, and that many colonists had changes that were meant to help them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I love them because of their epic beards. They are the only Space Marines manly enough to have hair. All other space marines are just bald, castrated pussies
Also they are Vikings. Vikings are cool. Everyone who does not think Vikings are cool deserves to be raped, pillaged and burned

Vikings are indeed cool, and as the poster above you so clearly elucidated, Space Wolves are not Vikings.

 Omegus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I love them because of their epic beards. They are the only Space Marines manly enough to have hair. All other space marines are just bald, castrated pussies
Also they are Vikings. Vikings are cool. Everyone who does not think Vikings are cool deserves to be raped, pillaged and burned

Vikings are indeed cool, and as the poster above you so clearly elucidated, Space Wolves are not Vikings.

Bill's King's 40k Space Wolves aren't vikings. Dan Abnett and Chris Wraight's 30k Space Wolves are very much vikings. The latter are also not goofy, wolf-riding, drunken idiots. They're every bit as hypocritical as everyone else involved with the Great Crusade, and they are, as a legion, belligerent jerks. As they come to terms with having been pawns in Horus's plans to unseat the Emperor, the VIth, and particularly Russ, will have to come to terms with the mistakes that their blind certainty led them to make. On the other hand, they have to deal with the pain of having been right, since Magnus and the XVth really were bartering with daemons in a blind rush for power that they couldn't control.

As for why so many people hate them, I'd chalk it up to a mix of two things.

1) The 40k Wolves as written by Bill King, are really lame. They're Hagar the Horrible in Space. They're a special snowflake for no real reason, since the worst of the SW fluff doesn't bother to address that the High Lords tolerate their insubordination because ultimately the rulers of the Imperium recognize that the Wolves are still fighting aliens, daemons, heretics, and traitors, and Fenris is right next to Cadia, standing between the Eye of Terror and Terra.

2) GW has always sucked at balancing them. The 2nd edition Wolf Guard spam was unfun to play against. Everything in the codex was better than its' SM counterpart in exchange for a 3 point premium in cost. The 5th edition book has atrocious internal balance, with only one good troop choice, one good heavy support choice, and one amazing HQ choice. The rest of the codex is a mountain of trash with Wolf in the name, which lead to every 5th edition Space Wolf army looking the same. You brought a ton of Grey Hunters and Long Fangs and Rune Priests, smashed everything with krak missiles and Jaws and Living Lightning while small packs of Grey Hunters hung out in their Razorbacks, watching the lascannons fire, waiting for the late game dash for objectives. With the changes to psychic defense and the current meta being dominated by psychic buffed deathstars, Rune Priests got even more overpowered and the idiotic Allies rules make it all too easy for damn near anyone to bring them along.

For what it's worth, they're pretty clearly meant to be EInherjar, not "Vikings", per se. That's all over Phil Kelly's fluff in the current Codex.

 da001 wrote:

True. I forgot that.
A legend?

Maybe. Or it's the "No Wolves on Fenris" part that's bollocks.

One's probably got to give, and I'm more inclined to drop the side-mark "in-character" reference of some random, highly biased not-even-a-space-marine-much-less-a-primarch-side-kick in some Black Library novel, rather than the well established Primarch backstory that's been told and retold for decades.

Space Wolves. The Nickelback of the future.

furryblueelf wrote:
Space Wolves. The Nickelback of the future.

Well, they got the hair for it

 Zweischneid wrote:

Maybe. Or it's the "No Wolves on Fenris" part that's bollocks.

One's probably got to give, and I'm more inclined to drop the side-mark "in-character" reference of some random, highly biased not-even-a-space-marine-much-less-a-primarch-side-kick in some Black Library novel, rather than the well established Primarch backstory that's been told and retold for decades.

Yeah, I gotta say, given that it's said in a novel by one guy who soon thereafter joins Chaos (and even without joining Chaos, people in novels sometimes say things they know aren't true, rather like people in real life), it's weird how many people have decided it's canon, as opposed to something that's in the current Codex. And if we get to say what's in the Codex isn't real, then, from now on, my Grey Hunters are going to be WS 10, BS 10, S 10, T 10, W 8 (because W 10 on troops, obviously, would be crazy), I 10, Ld 10, Sv 2+/2+.

zbg97 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Maybe. Or it's the "No Wolves on Fenris" part that's bollocks.

One's probably got to give, and I'm more inclined to drop the side-mark "in-character" reference of some random, highly biased not-even-a-space-marine-much-less-a-primarch-side-kick in some Black Library novel, rather than the well established Primarch backstory that's been told and retold for decades.

Yeah, I gotta say, given that it's said in a novel by one guy who soon thereafter joins Chaos (and even without joining Chaos, people in novels sometimes say things they know aren't true, rather like people in real life), it's weird how many people have decided it's canon, as opposed to something that's in the current Codex. And if we get to say what's in the Codex isn't real, then, from now on, my Grey Hunters are going to be WS 10, BS 10, S 10, T 10, W 8 (because W 10 on troops, obviously, would be crazy), I 10, Ld 10, Sv 2+/2+.

And I'll be able to say that Abaddon isn't a failure!

...Damn I wish that were true...

Personally I have always hated the Space Wolves. The concept even is lame and not at all fitting to 40k IMO; while everyone loves badass Vikings, badass VIkings who are also super-human warriors is a bit much. They're TOO good; as someone else said the biggest problem is they get (got?) all these special things for themselves that made them better than everyone else. Splitting heavy weapon fire, and being the only ones to able able to do that, the Cyclone terminators, etc. it all combined was like "These guys are super super-humans. Anything the regular Marines can do, Space Wolves can do better and are VIKINGS to boot!". I always had bad experiences years ago with the Wolves players being (at the time) the cheesiest, most powergaming guys around without even trying because of all the extra crap they got.

I just find them lame and contrived, along the lines of 2nd edition Orks being evolved fungi, Squats and Chaos Squats (as in the reason GW got rid of Squats is because it was obvious "Dwarves in space" without inspiration, just a parody). It would have been one thing to just have them Norse inspired (in the same way that Ultramarines are Roman and White Scars are Mongolian inspired), but they are almost literally Vikings in space with guns, there's no inspiration it's a caricature.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Personally I have always hated the Space Wolves. The concept even is lame and not at all fitting to 40k IMO; while everyone loves badass Vikings, badass VIkings who are also super-human warriors is a bit much.

Unless they're part of Chaos, then they're the death metal nightmare version of badass vikings.

I've heard the "years ago" thing a lot, which sort of ignores that EVERY Chapter now can do things no other Chapter can do. And with Space Wolves having one of the oldest Codices in the IoM, they're now paying through the nose for all of it. There are HQ units in the Space Wolves Codex that are 50-75% more expensive than their nearest C:SM equivalents. And they're assault specialists, while 6th Ed. is a pretty shooty meta.

It's also weird how there has been post after post about them not being Viking-like at all, while others say they're too Viking-like. I can't speak for previous Codices (I missed the days when Thunderwolf Cavalry could do a post cc consolidation that took them into another cc), but, as I was saying, Kelly clearly based them on Einherjar in the current Codex (the fiercest, bravest, and noblest warriors, claimed by the gods in the sky) and not really directly on the Viking culture, per se.

More and more I wonder if the people who hate SWs have read the current Codex or fought them since the days of 5th Ed., when they were the over-powered Codex. The weirdness being added by the new(ish) novels is only making it worse.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I love them because of their epic beards. They are the only Space Marines manly enough to have hair. All other space marines are just bald, castrated pussies
Also they are Vikings. Vikings are cool. Everyone who does not think Vikings are cool deserves to be raped, pillaged and burned

Also, I like metal music, and Space Wolves are easily the most metal chapter (along with the Iron Hands, who I love for the same reason)

Beards=Vikings=Metal=AWESOME!

I do imagine some people dislike them for though. They do get everything cheaper than ordinary marines.
The codex could do with a rewrite imo. More balance and less wolf- -wolf -fang -claw please. The wolf thing is nice, but this much wolf is plain silly.

 Psienesis wrote:
Because that is how authors write them. This is a phenomenon called "plot armor". They're actually one of the smallest chapters, holding only a single, feral planet in the galactic west. They're Vikings in Space. Which is... kind of silly, really, but also cool.

And that is plain nonsense. They are invariably described as one of the largest chapters. They do not stick to the '1000 marine limit'. Also, like almost all SM chapters, they have only a single homeworld (and it is a deathworld, not a feral world), but they are also mentioned as maintaining a protectorate of worlds loyal to the SW around Fenris (again, like most chapters do).

I think what he means is that, SW only have about 1200-2000 marines. What about ultramarines? Sure, they have around 1100 (some claim that there are extra members if a chapter is on max just because of retinue, honor guard, etc), but they also have like 50 successors some with 300 people, some with 600, some with 1000. Heck, even Manders are rumored to have at the very least 2 successors. No matter what you say, SW will be one of the smaller chapters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

zbg97 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Maybe. Or it's the "No Wolves on Fenris" part that's bollocks.

One's probably got to give, and I'm more inclined to drop the side-mark "in-character" reference of some random, highly biased not-even-a-space-marine-much-less-a-primarch-side-kick in some Black Library novel, rather than the well established Primarch backstory that's been told and retold for decades.

Yeah, I gotta say, given that it's said in a novel by one guy who soon thereafter joins Chaos (and even without joining Chaos, people in novels sometimes say things they know aren't true, rather like people in real life), it's weird how many people have decided it's canon, as opposed to something that's in the current Codex. And if we get to say what's in the Codex isn't real, then, from now on, my Grey Hunters are going to be WS 10, BS 10, S 10, T 10, W 8 (because W 10 on troops, obviously, would be crazy), I 10, Ld 10, Sv 2+/2+.

And I'll be able to say that Abaddon isn't a failure!

...Damn I wish that were true...

I dunno what you are talking about. I finally can thank you whoever wrote the fluff for chaos to finally start to be a bloody threat.

Because people hate inconsistencies..... in a setting built on inconsistencies.

Space Wolves suck for a variety of reasons.

For a start the whole nordic/vikings in space thing doesn't really track for precisely the same reason there aren't vikings around today- there are better ways to live. The SW are an ancient earth culture clumsily overlaid over the generic space marine template. In reality that culture was a product of it's time, knowledge (or lack there of), beliefs and circumstances. They have roughly replicated the harsh environment but the rest is missing. Bereft of these things the SW just seem like posers pretending to be vikings but without the depth.

They should be more marines with affectations rather than stereotypes mashed into power armour. This is where they really lost me and one reason I parted with my SW army.

And beards... dear Jeff I will never understand that fascination. Stupidity of a beard for a space marine aside (because helmets), the modern fascination with them is just boggling. Not shaving isn't some sort of accomplishment no matter how cool you think it looks.