Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Heavy bolters DO look cool, especially when toted by marines.

On the table, they don't do much to hurt terminators, monstrous creatures, or most vehicles, so they're about as useful as...



Especially in a world of cover-ignoring weapons, and many-shot S7+, and now D weapons, among other things.

I don't see the point in putting HB's in a devestator squad. Use your infantry for anit-infantry and use your HS slot for anti tank/MC stuff. I play Imperial Fist and Sisters and in my IF squads I use HB's and my heavy slot has dreads and thunderfire cannons (which there's no reason not to take one.) My Sisters used to have a HB squad, but since their rending HB's got nerfed I just got another excorcist. But I did put HB's in the command squad to defend the back field with a little more dakka. They're good against infantry and not much else. They have their uses but make sure you're using them right and not gimping your army by improper role assignment.

I like them a lot and sometimes use them for a cheap dev squad with my SW but of course MLs are always better, Which is a shame with how awesome they look, and as said above earlier they work on retributor squads since nothing else would as well.

Bolterbacks were king of fifth edition in my books, they were a versatile unit.

They make a comeback in this edition of the codex, with your troops using bolterbacks, you can comfortably expect to hit an FMC once with each razorback, causing a grounding test per razorback. They also add a few shots into entrenched infantry, ensuring morale checks and the like.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Bolterbacks were king of fifth edition in my books, they were a versatile unit.

They make a comeback in this edition of the codex, with your troops using bolterbacks, you can comfortably expect to hit an FMC once with each razorback, causing a grounding test per razorback. They also add a few shots into entrenched infantry, ensuring morale checks and the like.

The problem being that you instantly sign over the First Blood VP in most games, resulting in much harder common stalemate games of T.E.W or the Relic, before you even consider the fact that the HB fire is still miserably poor, and it severely reduces the effectiveness and resistance to structural integrity damage (wherein if you lose even 2 models your squad becomes a miserable joke) of your passengers with the transportation limit.

Plus, you practically auto-lose if you make a medium-heavy use of them against many competitive Tau/Eldar/Taudar lists who decimate and receive the fire of both the transports and the contents so easily it isn't even funny. In a minimal capacity what is the point? I'd far rather just have the Heavy Flamer variant with adequate measures taken to ensure it sees use (e.g use something as mobile cover) or better yet just Sniper Scouts for holding that home objective, for cheaper and not much loss in firepower relatively as the output of said firepower still sucks in both cases.

Some people don't care about maxing out there list. Some like to use different units because they look cool.

Heavy Bolters are okay weapons on their own but they suffer from the problem of opportunity cost. By taking that Heavy Bolter Dev squad you are losing out on taking Plasma Cannons which do much of the same things HBs do but far, far better and for only 20 points more for the entire squad. There's also carrier cost. A Heavy Bolter toting Dev marine costs 27.5 points (I divided up the points of the sergeant amongst the other marines since he doesn't do anything) while a PC toting Dev marine costs 32.5 points. That's an 18% increase for a whole lot more punch. Or for a Lascannon, a 36% increase. Sure you could take Heavy Bolter marines but you are wasting a lot of points on them versus better armed marines. Remember, you aren't only paying 10 points for that gun.

They are useful on IG tanks though. A Bolter boat Exterminator will put out a lot of hurt though that's because they can spam the shots though I'm starting to think Plasma Cannons are better. As hull mounted weapon for Chimeras they are great because 1) They are free and 2) They have better range meaning you will be plinking guys as soon as the main gun is in range versus the HHF. I am not sure about turret mounted weapons since SV4+ guys typically aren't the one who will be within 36" of your Chimera.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Bolterbacks were king of fifth edition in my books, they were a versatile unit.

They make a comeback in this edition of the codex, with your troops using bolterbacks, you can comfortably expect to hit an FMC once with each razorback, causing a grounding test per razorback. They also add a few shots into entrenched infantry, ensuring morale checks and the like.

I like the idea of bolterbacks myself, but at 20 points more than a rhino I always find it hard to not simply go for TL Lascannons or simply a rhino. Hence why I like my HBs in my devs.

 wowsmash wrote:
Some people don't care about maxing out there list. Some like to use different units because they look cool.

"

That's an inappropriate criteria for the *tactics* forum.

The heavy bolter, like the missile launcher, is a weapon I avoid in totality if I can.

Maybe for you but not for everyone.

 wowsmash wrote:
Maybe for you but not for everyone.

"It looks cool so I'm going to use it" is NOT a tactic. There is no point in even discussing math or matchups or anything if that's the selection criteria.

Martel732 wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
Maybe for you but not for everyone.

"It looks cool so I'm going to use it" is NOT a tactic. There is no point in even discussing math or matchups or anything if that's the selection criteria.

not entirely, you could select it upon that criteria, THEN try to justify it with math. Personally, I do have a little bit "cool" in my choice for HBs, but I have through personal experience found it to be exceptionally reliable and flexible based on the amount of shots, range, and str. Plus i have terrible luck with scatter weapons
""

Martel732 wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
Maybe for you but not for everyone.

"It looks cool so I'm going to use it" is NOT a tactic. There is no point in even discussing math or matchups or anything if that's the selection criteria.

1+

If you can't deal with the fact that X favourite unit sucks you shouldn't even be in this part of the forum unless you're posting a thread asking for ways to make it suck less (and good luck with that pal), yet alone make a post in it to belittle the objective of its content, because frankly that's nauseating to comprehend.

Almost all of my favorite units suck total rear end now in 6th. But yet, I'm not trying to pry them into my lists because they *are awful*.

I like heavy bolters when they can be used in mass. For example my malcador Defender can spew our bolter rounds and they can be devestating. They are far better against Xenos armies. But inshort i have them because of their range, cheapness and doesnt hurt to add 3 cheap shots (usually for free) to most of your vehicles. this is cominf from a guard player though.

Xenos have a tendency to be in Wave Serpents or in cover in my experience. And the Tau like to target things with HB and erase them. Which they can do way faster than you can erase them back.

Martel732 wrote:
Xenos have a tendency to be in Wave Serpents or in cover in my experience. And the Tau like to target things with HB and erase them. Which they can do way faster than you can erase them back.

Like all tactics it depends on who you play with and against. For you its unfortunate because heavy bolters look very cool

 Swastakowey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Xenos have a tendency to be in Wave Serpents or in cover in my experience. And the Tau like to target things with HB and erase them. Which they can do way faster than you can erase them back.

Like all tactics it depends on who you play with and against. For you its unfortunate because heavy bolters look very cool

No, tactics are good or bad regardless of whom you play against. But against some opponents, you can use miserable tactics and still win. Against Tau or Eldar players who know their stuff, you will lose pretty much every time with bad tactics. Hell, I lose pretty much every time with good BA tactics.

Martel732 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Xenos have a tendency to be in Wave Serpents or in cover in my experience. And the Tau like to target things with HB and erase them. Which they can do way faster than you can erase them back.

Like all tactics it depends on who you play with and against. For you its unfortunate because heavy bolters look very cool

No, tactics are good or bad regardless of whom you play against. But against some opponents, you can use miserable tactics and still win. Against Tau or Eldar players who know their stuff, you will lose pretty much every time with bad tactics. Hell, I lose pretty much every time with good BA tactics.

I think you just wanna argue but...

So you are telling me regardless of enemy, points size and terrain you deploy, move and shoot in the exact same manner you would every single game?... because if you have do that then yes you probably do loose a lot. Different targets and different maps = different tactics.

I was counting list building as part of the tactics. We can't constructively discuss map movement because every map is different. But the crux of it is that the heavy bolter does nothing at all to most of the potent units in the game right now. That means that bringing the heavy bolters NEGATES tactics, because no matter what you do, the weapon is not having the desired effect.

So if you bring the units you like against Eldar, you are probably going to get your face shot off worse than if you had brought the best possible units available. That's what I mean; I'm not trying to argue for arguments sake.

Martel732 wrote:
I was counting list building as part of the tactics. We can't constructively discuss map movement because every map is different. But the crux of it is that the heavy bolter does nothing at all to most of the potent units in the game right now. That means that bringing the heavy bolters NEGATES tactics, because no matter what you do, the weapon is not having the desired effect.

So if you bring the units you like against Eldar, you are probably going to get your face shot off worse than if you had brought the best possible units available. That's what I mean; I'm not trying to argue for arguments sake.

I have to agree with this. They do too little that regular infantry can already do. Leave the big guns for things big guns need to shoot. Las cannons, P cannons, etc. Infantry already kill other infantry so why wast an FOC slot for something that's already being done? And like Charles the Hammer said, it's useless against many targets.

Martel732 wrote:
I was counting list building as part of the tactics. We can't constructively discuss map movement because every map is different. But the crux of it is that the heavy bolter does nothing at all to most of the potent units in the game right now. That means that bringing the heavy bolters NEGATES tactics, because no matter what you do, the weapon is not having the desired effect.

So if you bring the units you like against Eldar, you are probably going to get your face shot off worse than if you had brought the best possible units available. That's what I mean; I'm not trying to argue for arguments sake.

Ok that makes sense, then yes to a point. Sorry about that.

I dont think it negates tactics though. Im not paying for my tanks to habe multi meltas on them for example but i have other weaponry to deal with potent enemies. If i where to only use heavy bolters then yes it would be bad but i think its safe to load up certain units with heavy bolters without destroying your list.

One problem with the heavy bolter is the existence of the autocannon. The autocannon is almost always a better weapon, and only artificial restrictions prevent the marines from throwing the heavy bolter in the garbage can in favor of the autocannon.

Another issue is that Xenos with 4+ armor in cover are in a sweet spot in a way. Weapons like heavy bolters and whirlwinds can't get around the cover with their AP 4 rounds.

Yet another is that I find it takes every heavy slot and then some to deal with Helldrakes, Riptides, Wave Serpents, etc. There simply is no room for a heavy weapon that kills units that can also be hurt by boltguns.

It would be really cool if the heavy bolter had a role to play, but the way GW has the game designed, it just doesn't. It's stupid, but there it is.

Martel732 wrote:
One problem with the heavy bolter is the existence of the autocannon. The autocannon is almost always a better weapon, and only artificial restrictions prevent the marines from throwing the heavy bolter in the garbage can in favor of the autocannon.

Another issue is that Xenos with 4+ armor in cover are in a sweet spot in a way. Weapons like heavy bolters and whirlwinds can't get around the cover with their AP 4 rounds.

Yet another is that I find it takes every heavy slot and then some to deal with Helldrakes, Riptides, Wave Serpents, etc. There simply is no room for a heavy weapon that kills units that can also be hurt by boltguns.

It would be really cool if the heavy bolter had a role to play, but the way GW has the game designed, it just doesn't. It's stupid, but there it is.

If i where going to a tourny id take the autocannon but if its a casual game with my club mates then i know the autocannon will be overkill in most stituations and for most of my games having the extra shot goes a lot further for less points. (hence why i said it changes depending on many things). The autocannon can deal with more targets but i find i feel like i have wasted points and got less when using auto cannon because, well because of my opponents and the style of lists that we are all using at the moment.

My favourite use of the heavy bolter is to load up a chimera with 2 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber and just pour rounds from it. Sometimes it really helps, other times its pitiful but when it helps its a very decent help i find.

I only take them on tac squads for the synergy with IF and the fact they're probably moving towards something. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One problem with the heavy bolter is the existence of the autocannon. The autocannon is almost always a better weapon, and only artificial restrictions prevent the marines from throwing the heavy bolter in the garbage can in favor of the autocannon.

Another issue is that Xenos with 4+ armor in cover are in a sweet spot in a way. Weapons like heavy bolters and whirlwinds can't get around the cover with their AP 4 rounds.

Yet another is that I find it takes every heavy slot and then some to deal with Helldrakes, Riptides, Wave Serpents, etc. There simply is no room for a heavy weapon that kills units that can also be hurt by boltguns.

It would be really cool if the heavy bolter had a role to play, but the way GW has the game designed, it just doesn't. It's stupid, but there it is.

If i where going to a tourny id take the autocannon but if its a casual game with my club mates then i know the autocannon will be overkill in most stituations and for most of my games having the extra shot goes a lot further for less points. (hence why i said it changes depending on many things). The autocannon can deal with more targets but i find i feel like i have wasted points and got less when using auto cannon because, well because of my opponents and the style of lists that we are all using at the moment.

My favourite use of the heavy bolter is to load up a chimera with 2 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber and just pour rounds from it. Sometimes it really helps, other times its pitiful but when it helps its a very decent help i find.

Autocannon has more range as well. And has double the chance to strip a HP from something like a DE raider. I'm looking at this from the perspective of my opponent fielding the most heinous thing they can think of. There is no reason to game against 3rd string lists; it's not necessary. Bring any heavy you like, or no heavy at all.

But I'm pretty sure the OP just wanted to talk about heavy bolter tactics, not about how the bolter doesn't "work".

Anyways, I like to take the HB too, it's a much better option for anti infantry than say, a plasma gun. I'd even go so far as to say better than the plasma cannon too in most cases when you consider scatter and gets hot. I also like them in tactical squads, but Devastators seems like a nice choice too!

You might not be a threat to the tougher stuff, TEQ will shrug off quite a bit, but you can slay everyone else with decent strength and volume of fire. Even AV3 is threatened by this combo as mostly they will only require a few losses to force a check. Even if they regroup that is still 'counts as moved'. Taking away a units ability to fight is almost as good as killing it outright.

I do like the idea of HBs on Landspeeders, that sounds fun! Additionally if you want to see where the Heavy Bolter really shines play some Kill Team with them! Perhaps one of the best weapons overall IMO for Kill Team.

The HB is definately a weapon to be used in quantity though. Much like the mortar. Thankfully the gun is like a weed for IG. Its every where and dirt cheap so mass HB rounds are easy to amass.

darkcloak wrote:
But I'm pretty sure the OP just wanted to talk about heavy bolter tactics, not about how the bolter doesn't "work".

Anyways, I like to take the HB too, it's a much better option for anti infantry than say, a plasma gun. I'd even go so far as to say better than the plasma cannon too in most cases when you consider scatter and gets hot. I also like them in tactical squads, but Devastators seems like a nice choice too!

You might not be a threat to the tougher stuff, TEQ will shrug off quite a bit, but you can slay everyone else with decent strength and volume of fire. Even AV3 is threatened by this combo as mostly they will only require a few losses to force a check. Even if they regroup that is still 'counts as moved'. Taking away a units ability to fight is almost as good as killing it outright.

I do like the idea of HBs on Landspeeders, that sounds fun! Additionally if you want to see where the Heavy Bolter really shines play some Kill Team with them! Perhaps one of the best weapons overall IMO for Kill Team.

HB/typhoon speeders bring the heat, but they can't take any damage in return, and the HB requires you to move within range of all kinds of nasty stuff.

My friends uses lots of Necron Warriors which he walks up the table. I use a 7 Man Dev w/ 4x HB to plink away at them. It's fairly effective. However in competitive games the HB is out of the question.