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 Void__Dragon wrote:

In Prospero Burns, speaking to whom he believes (idiotically) to be Magnus while in orbit above Prospero, Leman Russ practically begs him to be taken to Terra quietly, with no resistance, so that he doesn't have to take up arms against his brother.

Ok I remember now. He was talking with Kasper Hawser. "You know I do not want this. You know it tears my heart to commit against you". Page 386. OK I stand corrected.

Russ knows he's a weapon, and knows his place. But he's hardly of the same single mindedness as those others you listed.

And like I said, Russ didn't want to censure Magnus. At all.

 cincydooley wrote:
Russ knows he's a weapon, and knows his place. But he's hardly of the same single mindedness as those others you listed.

And like I said, Russ didn't want to censure Magnus. At all.

Given the fact that he was the one formally accusing Magnus of Sorcery and opened the way to the Council of Nikaea, I seriously doubt that.

Even if he didn´t want him killed, he was the first to censure him, alongside Mortarion.

And "single-minded" were not my words, I took them from "Know no Fear". They are Guilliman´s words.

 da001 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


So what you are saying is that you have literally not a damn thing in your post disproving what I said?

I already said that I wouldn't say he was one of the most respected (Like Horus or Sanguinius, to be blunt I'm not sure Guilliman was actually that popular), only that he was hardly a pariah. And even the likes of Leman Russ did not hate Magnus, he was just doing the same thing he always does: Trying to police his brothers. The only one who might have really hated Magnus that isn't a psychopath that hates everyone (Like Angron) was Mortarion... Who actually might be a psychopath that hates everyone, come to think of it.

My bad.

I was quoting you not to disprove anything you said, just to add your words, as a response to this:

 cincydooley wrote:
Magnus sits with Horus and Sanguinius as one of the most respected and trusted Primarchs prior to the fall.

Which I think is wrong. I didn´t say Magnus was a pariah.

The one thing I don´t agree with any of you is Russ not hating Magnus. They clashed more than once. After a violent dispute solved in the last moment by Lorgar, Russ says: "This is not over. Blood of Fenris is on your hands, and there will be a reckoning between us, Magnus: this I swear". He then cuts himself and howls. That was long before Nikaea and Prospero. Page 242, same source.

Something else I am asking you to think about:
Concerning the support given to Magnus on Nikaea, we know nearly nothing of those who spoke against him, just that there were many, but we have the number of those who support him (page 351): 12 chief Librarians. 12 out of 18 Legions, 17 not counting the Thousand Sons. While the accusers took three hours, the supporters needed five minutes, and all of them came from the Legions, no support for Magnus from any force of the Imperium save their brothers. White Scars, Dark Angels, Night Lords (!), Ultramarines and Salamanders are mentioned by name. Perturabo and Lorgar considered themselves friends of Magnus (as seen in Angel Exterminatus and The First Heretic & Aurelian) and Sanguinius was part of the Librarium program since the beginning, so I am counting them in. That´s 8 out of 12. Four missing

Russ and Mortarion as accusers.

So what is it left? Dorn, Ferrus, Angron, Horus, Fulgrim, Corax and Alpharius. Four of them supported Magnus on Nikaea, out of friendship or because they believed in the Librarian project. Three didn´t. Which ones? My guess is

Spoiler:

Dorn, Fulgrim and Angron not supporting Magnus

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godking wrote:
Perturabo also had good relations with Guilliman and the Lion to the point that he was willing to make devices for them.

No. Perturabo just loved to build devices. Just like Lorgar loved to write.

The Lion had good relations with no one. He was admired, but a friend of none.

Guilliman opinion of his brothers is well documented. His opinion on Perturabo was low: he described him as "single-minded".
Know no Fear, chapter 3. Page 38.

Spoiler:

"He knows that the breadth of his accomplishments troubles his more single-minded brothers like Lorgar and Perturabo."

Page 38 again:

Spoiler:

"Fewer still like him: as friends, he counts only Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius and Horus.
Some of his brothers are content to be the instruments of crusade they have become. Some of them don’t even pause to consider that is what they are. Angron, Russ, Ferrus, [b]Perturabo… They are just weapons, and have no ambition beyond being weapons.[/b] "

Where EXACTLY was Perturabo despised by his brothers Perturabo being a difficult guy to get to know and like is different then Perturabo being despised

I quoted you the EXACT points were it is said. And you quoted them back to me. Read the post you are answering to.

Perturabo´s sense of being despised, scorned upon, or looked down is instrumental in his character and his fall. It is mentioned in nearly all background about him.

How it comes chaos players suddenly want their Primarchs to be loved? When did this happen?

Perturabo THINKS that he was despised just as he THOUGHT that he needed to be in a meaningless competition with Dorn that does not actually mean that he was despised disliked for being a single minded stubborn bastard yes but disliking someone and despising someone are two different things.

 da001 wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Russ knows he's a weapon, and knows his place. But he's hardly of the same single mindedness as those others you listed.

And like I said, Russ didn't want to censure Magnus. At all.

Given the fact that he was the one formally accusing Magnus of Sorcery and opened the way to the Council of Nikaea, I seriously doubt that.

Even if he didn´t want him killed, he was the first to censure him, alongside Mortarion.

And "single-minded" were not my words, I took them from "Know no Fear". They are Guilliman´s words.

Because that was Russ' job. Doesn't mean he took any pleasure in it. In fact, it's pretty clear from those two novels that he didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Straight from Prospero Burns:

“It is also a lament. This was a sad necessity regretted by all. It gave no pleasure to perform it, not even the reward of glory. The prosecution of a fellow Legion, even when it is done so successfully, is no easy thing to square in a man’s mind. This has ever been the burden of the Wolves of the Sixth Astartes that their calling as the Allfather’s chosen hunters places a solemn burden of responsibility on their shoulders greater than any endured by other Legions. There is no shame in admitting this is an account of sorrow, a mournful thing. It is an account we could happily wash away from our memories and wish undone.”

Excerpt From: Abnett, Dan. “Prospero Burns.” The Black Library, 2011-01-01.

godking wrote:
Perturabo THINKS that he was despised just as he THOUGHT that he needed to be in a meaningless competition with Dorn that does not actually mean that he was despised disliked for being a single minded stubborn bastard yes but disliking someone and despising someone are two different things.

The quotes I already gave you includes these words: "casual disdain", "mocked at", "scorn"... the most telling is that his brothers "kept him at a distance". The OP asked if the Primarchs viewed Lorgar as "one of them". Well, most traitor Primarchs were not "one of them", including Perturabo. I already gave you quotes of Russ, Khan, Guilliman and Dorn thinking low of him. By the way, "single-minded" was just Guilliman´s opinion. It is hinted that a possible explanation of the bad feelings on him for most of his brothers was his love of technology and anstract knowledge, which is exactly the opposite of what Guilliman thought.

And this dislike / despise / whatever is part of his background. It is repeated everywhere. He was a loyal servant of the Emperor, a brilliant tactician and a mastermind regarding technology. He had a mind for peace as he had a mind for war, and was committed and willing to prove his abilities. Yet he was shunned down by the Imperium as a whole. The reasons are a mystery, but it is repeated in his background over and over.

I can think of two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps he was despised for being one of the few Primarchs that didn´t conquer the planet he arrived to, and the only one who didn´t even try. He was happy following the orders of a human, his foster father.
2) Perhaps the Emperor foresaw part of the Heresy, and manipulated/provoked it. This will explain his behavior towards Angron, Magnus, Lorgar or Perturabo.

What really rubs me the wrong way is why someone who likes Perturabo will insist that he was a good friend with the likes of Guilliman and the Lion, no less. The Primarchs didn´t get along well, I cannot see why so many of you want them to be a happy family.

Further "Russ didn't hate Magnus" allusions:

We know. We're already done with that discussion.

I think "despised" is being thrown around too readily. Disliking someone and outright hating them is quite different.

 cincydooley wrote:
Further "Russ didn't hate Magnus" allusions:

Spoiler:

“Magnus,” said Leman Russ, the fraternal shake perfunctory and lacking any warmth. Russ looked Magnus up and down. “That cloak makes you look like the enemy. It’s the feathers.”
“Or perhaps, their cloaks make them look like me?”
“Either way, I don’t like it. You should get rid of it. A cloak is a liability in battle.”
“I could say the same of that mangy wolf pelt.”
“You could, but then I’d have to kill you,” replied Russ.
“You could try,” said Magnus, “but you wouldn’t succeed.”
“Is that what you think?”
“It’s what I know.”
Ahriman was horrified by this exchange. Then he saw the faintest smirk on Russ’ lips, and a glint of mischief in his primarch’s glittering amber eye.
He let out a tense breath, sensing a familiar pattern to their argumentative banter. Ahriman had often observed that soldiers who exchanged the most vulgar comments were often steadfast brothers-in-arms, where the level of friendship could be judged by how foul their greetings were to one another. Might this be something similar?”

Excerpt From: McNeill, Graham. “A Thousand Sons.” The Black Library, 2010-03-01. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

This quote is kind of meh. Too open to interpretation. Arhiman tries to guess how a Primarch feels and gets contradictory impressions. Meh.

The one you gave before, on the other side, is quite interesting and convincing. Thank you for that one. It is page 394, Prospero Burns. (By the way, the page or chapter is quite useful for those who like quotes).

I am still unconvinced of how this proves that Magnus was "one of the most respected and trusted Primarchs". Even assuming Russ did what he did out of thinking Magnus was a threat to the Imperium and not out of personal dislike of what Magnus represented, he was a monstruous looking Primarch with a Legion plagued by mutations who was formally accused of sorcery after being considered a threat by many forces inside the Imperium. It took three hours for all his accusers to end their allegations, in a public trial conducted by the Emperor himself who ended in a total defeat for Magnus.

Compare it with the love and respect Primarchs like the Lion, Guilliman, Dorn, Sanguinius and, of course, Horus got.

And it is a constant in the traitor primarchs.

Alpharius, having just joined his brothers, chastised by Guilliman. How many hours took Guilliman to point out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, while telling Alpharius he could never hope to compare? The shortest Primarch, the youngest one, was thus ridiculized by a loved, respected one.

Lorgar being publicly chastised in Monarchia, a zealot in a world of atheists.

Perturabo being mistreated over and over for no reason.

Angron losing his friends while the Emperor could just teleport them save or help them in battle.

Curze and Imperial Assassins, Mortarion and his grudges.... don´t you see the pattern?

Horus and the Word Bearers talked to those they believed would turn. Magnus was somehow the exception, but they went for the resentful.

And Fulgrim, who is another completely different case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
We know. We're already done with that discussion.

I think "despised" is being thrown around too readily. Disliking someone and outright hating them is quite different.

Perhaps. Despise, look down on, undervalue, scorn upon, show contempt...

I think people use "hate" far too often. However there is something of a scale here: dislike -> despise -> hate. I don´t think "hate" applies before the Heresy, but I do believe "dislike" is too soft a word. With some Primarchs as Vulkan it sounds good, but I really see "despise" in, for instance, Guilliman´s words concerning many of his brothers. Or the way Perturabo is treated.

Another thing to think about is the way the Primarchs were presented to the citizens of the Imperium. Particularly the most powerful and important, who had information about what who was who. A remembrancer sent to the Emperor´s Children legion was far happier than one sent to the World Eaters or the Night Lords. The Legions had a reputation, and their Primarchs with them. Some were loved and respected. Others were seen with disgust, a claim for their destruction voiced often. And most of the "bad" Legions turned traitor, so they had a point.

As for who the most trusted and respected Primarch Horus is a strong contender, Magnus is not. He was feared and despised by some other primarchs like Russ and Mortarion. Horus even called him a fool I believe. Sanguinus is a relative contender, his mutations do make this title dubious though. Logar however said that it is only Sanguinius himself who fears his wings and what they mean, too the others he is a shining symbol of perfection as well as being an exceptional fighter and commander. Fulgrim is revered by some but mistrusted and despised by some of the more base primarchs.
As for Lorgar not being respected. At the start of the Heresy he was a weakling, a writer not a fighter. Logar transfigured however is so badass he has Angrons respect. Even the grudging respect of Guilliman.

XXXX