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i read somewhere that most of the other primarchs had a negative view on Lorgar, they viewed him as whiny, self-indulgent etc. etc. and most of all weak

he allowed himself to be manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus....yes even though Erebus did "manipulate" Horus as well, at the end of the day it was Horus who became leader of the Traitor Forces


Lorgar himself probably thought he didn't deserve to be a primarch....

Yeah, most did not respect Lorgar at all.

Even Magnus, the most sympathetic to Lorgar, did not hesitate to reprimand Lorgar's behavior and demeanor.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yeah, most did not respect Lorgar at all.

Even Magnus, the most sympathetic to Lorgar, did not hesitate to reprimand Lorgar's behavior and demeanor.

but didn't Russ and Magnus disagree with the Emperor's actions when he ordered the destruction of the religious cathedrials and monuments in Khur, and the Emperor publicly embarassing Lorgar in front of his legion..

No, they disagreed with wiping Lorgar and his legion from the galaxy.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
No, they disagreed with wiping Lorgar and his legion from the galaxy.

He's right actually. Magnus and Leman Russ both agreed that the destruction of Monarchia was too harsh a move.

Horus considered Lorgar "wise", for whatever it is worth. It was another point of wounded pride for him, that Chaos approached someone else before him.

Magnus did see him as a close friend, although he patronized the hell out of him (but that's Magnus).

It's true that he was looked down upon, or at least frowned upon for his slow progress during the crusade. However there are a total of...2....maybe 1 or 0 traitor legions who were not looked down upon by most legions opposite them. (With the exception of Horus and Fulgrim who were usually quite loved). In my opinion his devotion to the pantheon should have kept his status forever as the chosen Primarch, he did after all serve the Gods more openly than Horus who flaunted his believed control over them.

LightKing wrote:
i read somewhere that most of the other primarchs had a negative view on Lorgar, they viewed him as whiny, self-indulgent etc. etc. and most of all weak

he allowed himself to be manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus....yes even though Erebus did "manipulate" Horus as well, at the end of the day it was Horus who became leader of the Traitor Forces


Lorgar himself probably thought he didn't deserve to be a primarch....

yeah, this is pretty much it. that doesnt mean they disliked him to the point of destruction. Heck, even horus was willing to pump the guys ego by calling him wise with a straight face and not everyone agreed with breaking his favorite toy.

Wow... LightKing asked a sensible question! And the worst part is that I'm not joking!

Have you ever seen that Blackadder goes Forth scene where Melchett is telling Darling that he is like a son but 'more like the fruits from my over-active loins'?


It was a bit like that.

I can´t believe I am posting to yet another stupid question from LightKing....

Alpharius was by far the shortest and the weakest of the Primarchs. He was openly despised by some of his brothers (especially Guilliman) partly because of this, partly because of his "war is a game" approach to the Crusade. He was found in 981.M30 and the attack on Isstvan III was in 005.M31. That´s just 24 years, he was a newcomer, and he was not living up to the expectations. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Lorgar was despised by Guilliman and others because his faith (in an openly pro-atheism empire) and his emotional instability, not because he was "weaker" than the rest, at least in the conventional meaning for "weak". After Monarchia, everyone thought he had found the focus he lacked, and they were right. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Perturabo was openly despised by his lack of enthusiasm too. He didn´t even try to rule the planet he got to. He wanted to build funny mechanisms instead of waging war. He committed himself to war, trying to prove that he was a worthy son and general. In his own eyes, he failed. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Mortarion made a fool of himself against his foster father. He was defeated and found wanting, and this heavily influenced his decisions as a Primarch. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Angron was considered a raving maniac by his brothers, and many believed he should have been executed. The only Primarch that said otherwise was Horus, who called him friend.

Curze was considered insane and dangerous, perhaps more than Angron. There was a claim for his execution, and Imperial Assassins tried to kill him before the Heresy, or so is said. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Magnus was looked down because his love of sorcery. He had some friends, including Horus.

The two only traitor Primarchs that were really seen as "one of us" by the rest of their brothers were Fulgrim and Horus. Horus became Warmaster partly because everyone loved and trusted him, including people like Angron or Curze. And when the time came for the Word Bearers and Sons of Horus to spread the rebellion, they knew where to look. They talked with the despised and the resentful.

On the other side, Guilliman and Dorn built up petty empires on their own. And Guilliman was quick to express his contemp. They were the "good ones", the heroic Primarchs.

If you think about it, Primarchs have a lot in common with a bunch of teenagers in a boys-only high school.

Guilliman didn't hate Lorgar though. Not until Calth happened. He was just doing what his father ordered him to do, just teach Lorgar a lesson.

 da001 wrote:
I can´t believe I am posting to yet another stupid question from LightKing....

Alpharius was by far the shortest and the weakest of the Primarchs. He was openly despised by some of his brothers (especially Guilliman) partly because of this, partly because of his "war is a game" approach to the Crusade. He was found in 981.M30 and the attack on Isstvan III was in 005.M31. That´s just 24 years, he was a newcomer, and he was not living up to the expectations. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Lorgar was despised by Guilliman and others because his faith (in an openly pro-atheism empire) and his emotional instability, not because he was "weaker" than the rest, at least in the conventional meaning for "weak". After Monarchia, everyone thought he had found the focus he lacked, and they were right. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Perturabo was openly despised by his lack of enthusiasm too. He didn´t even try to rule the planet he got to. He wanted to build funny mechanisms instead of waging war. He committed himself to war, trying to prove that he was a worthy son and general. In his own eyes, he failed. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Mortarion made a fool of himself against his foster father. He was defeated and found wanting, and this heavily influenced his decisions as a Primarch. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Angron was considered a raving maniac by his brothers, and many believed he should have been executed. The only Primarch that said otherwise was Horus, who called him friend.

Curze was considered insane and dangerous, perhaps more than Angron. There was a claim for his execution, and Imperial Assassins tried to kill him before the Heresy, or so is said. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Magnus was looked down because his love of sorcery. He had some friends, including Horus.

The two only traitor Primarchs that were really seen as "one of us" by the rest of their brothers were Fulgrim and Horus. Horus became Warmaster partly because everyone loved and trusted him, including people like Angron or Curze. And when the time came for the Word Bearers and Sons of Horus to spread the rebellion, they knew where to look. They talked with the despised and the resentful.

On the other side, Guilliman and Dorn built up petty empires on their own. And Guilliman was quick to express his contemp. They were the "good ones", the heroic Primarchs.

If you think about it, Primarchs have a lot in common with a bunch of teenagers in a boys-only high school.

Most of this is wrong. I'd not pay it much heed.

I was just about to say the same - lots of...odd stuff in there.

Best to disregard most of it.

Yeah, that pretty much is all 4chan bs hyperbole with no grounding in reality. Best to ignore all of it.

 EVIL INC wrote:

yeah, this is pretty much it. that doesnt mean they disliked him to the point of destruction. Heck, even horus was willing to pump the guys ego by calling him wise with a straight face and not everyone agreed with breaking his favorite toy.

Horus called him wise in his internal monologue when he was "beyond the veil" or whatever. He wasn't pumping up his ego, and people learned to be very careful of post-sojourn Lorgar after he curbstomped possessed Fulgrim, mentally pushed around Horus, and got even Angron to admit that he "kills well".

That must be in a book I havnt read yet. Even grudging admissions like that from them does not elevate him to an 'equal' in their eyes.

 EVIL INC wrote:
That must be in a book I havnt read yet. Even grudging admissions like that from them does not elevate him to an 'equal' in their eyes.

It was in one of the first three books, whichever one McNeil wrote and totally dropped the ball on. And for what it is worth, Angron hates everyone, and he embraced Lorgar as a brother (in fact, he flipped his gak and ate his own Librarians to keep them from hurting Lorgar).

 cincydooley wrote:

 da001 wrote:

(...)

Most of this is wrong. I'd not pay it much heed.

 Alpharius wrote:
I was just about to say the same - lots of...odd stuff in there.

Best to disregard most of it.

Could you please be more specific? I could provide quotes and stuff about most of it.

Some of it is old background, with some recent changes, like the part about Alpharius. But most of it is still "canon".

For instance, the part about Guilliman despising Alpharius is taken from these sources:

2004: Index Astartes IV: The Alpha Legion. "His first encounter with Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines was reputedly strained. Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy, and had a firm battle doctrine that his legion never wavered from. He was in the process of documenting the 'correct' tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his long years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this 'codex' behaviour. However, this attitude was anathema to Alpharius' belief in initiative and adaptability, and a heated debate over tactics and ideology ensued. When it became clear that Alpharius would not bow to his experience and superiority, Guilliman pointed out the thousands of victories and battle honours his legion had won, and told his younger brother that he could never hope to compare."

2013: Unremembered Empire: chapter 6: "Guilliman had never had any martial respect for the elusive, cowardly tactics of the youngest Legion".

So... which part did you find odd?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
Yeah, that pretty much is all 4chan bs hyperbole with no grounding in reality. Best to ignore all of it. (...)

Are you talking about the Index Astartes, the dates taken from Forgeworld´s Massacre or the stuff quoted from recent Black Library books?

Didn´t know 4chan was that reliable.

I got the impression from Betrayer that Angron sneered at Lorgar (and almost everyone else for that matter) for a long, long time. Lorgar was completely different to Angron, with a focus on knowledge, exploration and spiritual development.

It was not until Angron witnessed Lorgar fighting by his side, using his telekinetic power to kill and ultimately very nearly give his life to defend Angron that the World Eaters Primarch started to take Lorgar more seriously.

I got the impression that on some base level he was pleasantly surprised that Lorgar was so loyal to him (Angron of all Primarchs would be one to develop bonds "forged in battle" of course) and might not be the snivelling weakling he first thought. Angron was also smart enough to realise that Lorgar might actually be onto something with his exploration of Warpcraft, and expressed an interest in trying to learn some of Lorgar's sorcery (which they never got around to, but that's besides the point).

We haven't really seen Lorgar or Angron after Angron's ascension yet, so we don't know what comes next, but given Angron's 'change' it might be fair to say that at the end of his mortal life, Angron looked upon Lorgar with a mixture of amusement, curiosity and camaraderie. The scorn seemed to have been put on a bus.

 da001 wrote:
I can´t believe I am posting to yet another stupid question from LightKing....

Alpharius was by far the shortest and the weakest of the Primarchs. He was openly despised by some of his brothers (especially Guilliman) partly because of this, partly because of his "war is a game" approach to the Crusade. He was found in 981.M30 and the attack on Isstvan III was in 005.M31. That´s just 24 years, he was a newcomer, and he was not living up to the expectations. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Guilliman didn't trust Alpharius, this much is true. No reason to think he was dispised by any of the others.

Lorgar was despised by Guilliman and others because his faith (in an openly pro-atheism empire) and his emotional instability, not because he was "weaker" than the rest, at least in the conventional meaning for "weak". After Monarchia, everyone thought he had found the focus he lacked, and they were right. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Guilliman didn't despise him prior to the betryal. Guilliman took no pleasure in Monarchia and was notably hurt (emotionally) about the attack on the 500. Russ and Magnus both respected him prior to his fall. Fulgrim didn't respect him until Lorgar called out Fulgrim as weak for allowing himself to be a host for a demon. Curze thought he was weak and wanted to kill him as isstvan.

Perturabo was openly despised by his lack of enthusiasm too. He didn´t even try to rule the planet he got to. He wanted to build funny mechanisms instead of waging war. He committed himself to war, trying to prove that he was a worthy son and general. In his own eyes, he failed. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Not true at all. In Angel Extermiantus he makes it clear that previously he DID get along with, at the very least, Vulkan and Ferrus. In fact, there's no reason to believe he wasn't at least cordial with all of them save fulgrim and dorn before the drop site. If anything, Perturabo was the least braggadocious of all his brothers, which is the sole reason he turned.

Mortarion made a fool of himself against his foster father. He was defeated and found wanting, and this heavily influenced his decisions as a Primarch. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Was notably cordial with fulgrim as well. No reason to think he didn't have any "friends". Vulkan didn't agree wth his method of warfare but got along with him fine.

Angron was considered a raving maniac by his brothers, and many believed he should have been executed. The only Primarch that said otherwise was Horus, who called him friend.

Most of angrons brothers pitied him. Horus wasn't exactly his friend either; Angron was merely a tool to Horus. Nothing more.

Curze was considered insane and dangerous, perhaps more than Angron. There was a claim for his execution, and Imperial Assassins tried to kill him before the Heresy, or so is said. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

no reason to think he was friends with Horus. None of his brothers trusted him. This is your closest assessment to actual reality.

Magnus was looked down because his love of sorcery. He had some friends, including Horus.

Not even remotely true. Magnus sits with Horus and Sanguinius as one of the most respected and trusted Primarchs prior to the fall. Even Russ was saddened by the razing of prospero.




I could go on but I have to go watch Anderson silva beat face.

Yeah, a lot of the Primarchs oddly like Magnus.

Lorgar, Perturabo, Horus, Sanguinius, the Khan, etc.

I wouldn't say one of the most respected, but hardly the pariah Angron is.

 da001 wrote:
I can´t believe I am posting to yet another stupid question from LightKing....

Alpharius was by far the shortest and the weakest of the Primarchs. He was openly despised by some of his brothers (especially Guilliman) partly because of this, partly because of his "war is a game" approach to the Crusade. He was found in 981.M30 and the attack on Isstvan III was in 005.M31. That´s just 24 years, he was a newcomer, and he was not living up to the expectations. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Lorgar was despised by Guilliman and others because his faith (in an openly pro-atheism empire) and his emotional instability, not because he was "weaker" than the rest, at least in the conventional meaning for "weak". After Monarchia, everyone thought he had found the focus he lacked, and they were right. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Perturabo was openly despised by his lack of enthusiasm too. He didn´t even try to rule the planet he got to. He wanted to build funny mechanisms instead of waging war. He committed himself to war, trying to prove that he was a worthy son and general. In his own eyes, he failed. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Mortarion made a fool of himself against his foster father. He was defeated and found wanting, and this heavily influenced his decisions as a Primarch. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Angron was considered a raving maniac by his brothers, and many believed he should have been executed. The only Primarch that said otherwise was Horus, who called him friend.

Curze was considered insane and dangerous, perhaps more than Angron. There was a claim for his execution, and Imperial Assassins tried to kill him before the Heresy, or so is said. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Magnus was looked down because his love of sorcery. He had some friends, including Horus.

The two only traitor Primarchs that were really seen as "one of us" by the rest of their brothers were Fulgrim and Horus. Horus became Warmaster partly because everyone loved and trusted him, including people like Angron or Curze. And when the time came for the Word Bearers and Sons of Horus to spread the rebellion, they knew where to look. They talked with the despised and the resentful.

On the other side, Guilliman and Dorn built up petty empires on their own. And Guilliman was quick to express his contemp. They were the "good ones", the heroic Primarchs.

If you think about it, Primarchs have a lot in common with a bunch of teenagers in a boys-only high school.

This is quite a good summary. Magnus was friends with Sanguinius, Vulkan, Fulgrim, Horus, and the Khan. He was actually fairly well liked

Wall of text incoming.

 cincydooley wrote:
(...)

Bufff I asked for it so there I go.

You claimed “Most of this is wrong. I'd not pay it much heed” but now it looks more like “This part is right, but there is nothing supporting that other thing”. I said I was going to provide you quotes but this is going to take me a lot of time. I am going to start with the one you claim is “Not true at all”: the relationships between mighty Perturabo and his brothers.

 cincydooley wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Perturabo was openly despised by his lack of enthusiasm too. He didn´t even try to rule the planet he got to. He wanted to build funny mechanisms instead of waging war. He committed himself to war, trying to prove that he was a worthy son and general. In his own eyes, he failed. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Not true at all. In Angel Extermiantus he makes it clear that previously he DID get along with, at the very least, Vulkan and Ferrus. In fact, there's no reason to believe he wasn't at least cordial with all of them save fulgrim and dorn before the drop site.

The “Index Astartes I: Bitter and Twisted gives us a lot of information about Perturabo:
1: About the Iron Warriors being treated with disdain by the Imperium as a whole:

2: About Perturabo and his brothers. I am skipping the part about Dorn, I know you already knew this part.

3: Perturabo not conquering Olympia. Instead, Perturabo taking orders from his foster father until the coming of the Emperor. It is the only Primarch that didn´t even try to seize power. Personal opinion: I always thought this was the reason of the despise.

If anything, Perturabo was the least braggadocious of all his brothers, which is the sole reason he turned.

No way. His only reason? His foster father was killed. Olympia broke into open rebellion. After being despised and treated with disdain for decades, this turned him mad. More from Index Astartes.

The population was massacred or culled into slavery:


Now we move to Angel Exterminatus. It is a novel, not a background book, so it has far less stuff. Perturabo´s love for mechanisms is all over the place, so I will assume you already knew that.

Prologue: Dammekos, the Tyrant of Lochos, is referred by name. The next time we see Perturabo, the Heresy has started. So there is no reason given for the turning. But McNeill gave us this prologue to keep track with Index Astartes.

Perturabo not having many friends.

Reasons for turning: the fall of Olympia.

Ferrus being a friend? No mention in Index Astartes, only two mentions in Angel Exterminatus. Please correct me if I am wrong, I may have missed something:

Not friendship at all.

You missed this one: friendship with Magnus:

You were right about Vulcan:


That´s three friends, counting Horus, who probably sees him as a tool. Disdain, scorn and being kept at a distance for the rest.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yeah, a lot of the Primarchs oddly like Magnus.

Lorgar, Perturabo, Horus, Sanguinius, the Khan, etc.

I wouldn't say one of the most respected, but hardly the pariah Angron is.

And yet, we also know that he was looked down for his use of Sorcery. Of two of his accusers we know the name: Mortarion and Leman Russ. But we know that the matter divided the Imperium, and that there were many more.

We see the Council of Nikaea from the eyes of Arhiman, and all accusers are hiding their faces. The only exception is Ohtere Wyrdmake of the Wolves, the one opening the trial and making a formal accusation against Magnus. The reason given for this (an order from the Emperor, of course) is the fear Magnus and his studies inspire.

Page 325, A Thousand Sons. “Am I to be tried by faceless observers who hide behind their falsehoods (… ) it is all too easy to hide behind cloaks of anonimity and cast your venom”.

The trial begins. One of the accusers reveals his face: it is Mortarion, who makes his oration. At this point Arhiman loses consciousness. When he awakes, the accusation is over. For three hours, the accusers have had their time. “Quite a coven of witch hunters to condemn us”, says Magnus.

He had friends, but he had many enemies. Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius were “popular” primarchs, not Magnus.

Much of the index Astartes is being made obsolete by the Horus heresy books. That's your primary problem.

 cincydooley wrote:
Much of the index Astartes is being made obsolete by the Horus heresy books. That's your primary problem.

Made obsolete? No.

New stuff is added, but there are nearly no changes, just expansions. And the Black Library authors always try to reference the Index Astartes, which is something like a "bible" concerning the Primarchs, most of which were "born" in these articles. Look at the example given: Graham McNeill jumped over the events of the Index Astartes, yet nothing he said contradicts them. He even mentions Dammekos by name, then skip the events. If you read the IA, you already know who Dammekos is and his role in Perturabo´s fall. Nothing is made "obsolete". Coming to think of it, if you read both my quotes from Black Library books (2012 and 2013) and Index Astartes (2002 and 2004) it should be obvious that the authors clearly had the Index in mind:

On Perturabo:
Index Astartes:
Angel Exterminatus:
He is using the same words. And you say this makes the Index obsolete? Why?

And you can see the same in the quotes I gave you about Alpharius.

Anyway, if you are claiming that a book published during 2004 is obsolete, my "primary problem" would be no doubt that I still can and will quote you stuff from books from the eighties like Rogue Trader or the Realms of Chaos books, and insist that most of it still applies to the setting. A book from 2004 is "new stuff" to me

Also, half my quotes are from stuff published in 2012 and 2013. Sure, they are word by word the same than the other stuff I quoted from 2002 and 2004. But you still have failed to find something supporting your views, no matter the year it was published. You are just dismissing my sources, apparently out of "I don´t like it".

Disclaimer: there is an exception. Alpharius. His motivations changed in the book Legion (2008). I have a tendency to ignore this book, that introduced the Cabal, Omegon and Perpetuals to the setting. However, his motivations were not clear in the Index Astartes, so I will still insist that it is not a retcon. You may have a case here though.

It's probably a general problem for all Primarchs.

They are ... at the end of the day ... static characters that have been conceived as they are as "post-Heresy" versions, and they never fundamentally changed them into some truly different "pre-Heresy" version.

Angron was always an angry psychopath
Curze was always a creepy terrormonger
Fulgrim was always a prick
Lorgar was always a freaky zealot

Etc..

For none of them exists a "plausible" pre-heresy-version that could've gone the other way. They are unchanging characters in a plot about drastic change and brotherly estrangement, and it doesn't synch very well.

To be fair, it's probably true for the loyalists too. There are no loyalist Primarchs who were "less-good"/"less-loyal" pre-heresy than they are post-heresy, because they came around to see things differently because of the Heresy. None of them fundamentally "change" in personality.

 da001 wrote:


And yet, we also know that he was looked down for his use of Sorcery. Of two of his accusers we know the name: Mortarion and Leman Russ. But we know that the matter divided the Imperium, and that there were many more.

"Divided" is hardly what the Imperium would be were Magnus a hated pariah. Which he isn't.

We see the Council of Nikaea from the eyes of Arhiman, and all accusers are hiding their faces. The only exception is Ohtere Wyrdmake of the Wolves, the one opening the trial and making a formal accusation against Magnus. The reason given for this (an order from the Emperor, of course) is the fear Magnus and his studies inspire.

Page 325, A Thousand Sons. “Am I to be tried by faceless observers who hide behind their falsehoods (… ) it is all too easy to hide behind cloaks of anonimity and cast your venom”.

The trial begins. One of the accusers reveals his face: it is Mortarion, who makes his oration. At this point Arhiman loses consciousness. When he awakes, the accusation is over. For three hours, the accusers have had their time. “Quite a coven of witch hunters to condemn us”, says Magnus.

He had friends, but he had many enemies. Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius were “popular” primarchs, not Magnus.

So what you are saying is that you have literally not a damn thing in your post disproving what I said?

I already said that I wouldn't say he was one of the most respected (Like Horus or Sanguinius, to be blunt I'm not sure Guilliman was actually that popular), only that he was hardly a pariah. And even the likes of Leman Russ did not hate Magnus, he was just doing the same thing he always does: Trying to police his brothers. The only one who might have really hated Magnus that isn't a psychopath that hates everyone (Like Angron) was Mortarion... Who actually might be a psychopath that hates everyone, come to think of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

This is quite a good summary. Magnus was friends with Sanguinius, Vulkan, Fulgrim, Horus, and the Khan. He was actually fairly well liked

Magnus was friends with Vulkan? I don't recall them ever actually speaking, lol.

I wouldn't count Fulgrim among them. Fulgrim plays the part of a friend, but he is really pretty fething two-faced. We've seen this concerning his actions toward Curze, and we see first-hand that Fulgrim supported Leman Russ' actions in Prospero Burns. That crying in A Thousand Sons when Magnus is sentenced? bs crocodile tears.

 da001 wrote:
Wall of text incoming.

 cincydooley wrote:
(...)

Bufff I asked for it so there I go.

You claimed “Most of this is wrong. I'd not pay it much heed” but now it looks more like “This part is right, but there is nothing supporting that other thing”. I said I was going to provide you quotes but this is going to take me a lot of time. I am going to start with the one you claim is “Not true at all”: the relationships between mighty Perturabo and his brothers.

 cincydooley wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Perturabo was openly despised by his lack of enthusiasm too. He didn´t even try to rule the planet he got to. He wanted to build funny mechanisms instead of waging war. He committed himself to war, trying to prove that he was a worthy son and general. In his own eyes, he failed. He had few friends, aside from Horus.

Not true at all. In Angel Extermiantus he makes it clear that previously he DID get along with, at the very least, Vulkan and Ferrus. In fact, there's no reason to believe he wasn't at least cordial with all of them save fulgrim and dorn before the drop site.

The “Index Astartes I: Bitter and Twisted gives us a lot of information about Perturabo:
1: About the Iron Warriors being treated with disdain by the Imperium as a whole:

Spoiler:

“The passage of years and the carnage of the Heresy have long destroyed any possibility of proving why the Iron Warriors were treated with such casual disdain.”

2: About Perturabo and his brothers. I am skipping the part about Dorn, I know you already knew this part.

Spoiler:

“It is undoubtedly true that the other Primarchs kept Perturabo at a distance. This may be attributable to his technical genius that was far in advance of any of the others. Perturabo could match wits with Adeptus Mechanicus Magi on anything from warp drives to macro cannons. This was reflected in the way his deeds are recorded in the legends passed down from those times. In one famous story describing the occasion when Leman Russ and Jaghatai Khan routed the Orks of Overdog Mashogg, Perturabo features only as the 'comrade' who calculated the optimum way to bypass Mashogg's low orbit defences.”

3: Perturabo not conquering Olympia. Instead, Perturabo taking orders from his foster father until the coming of the Emperor. It is the only Primarch that didn´t even try to seize power. Personal opinion: I always thought this was the reason of the despise.

Spoiler:

“The young Perturabo was discovered climbing the sheer cliffs below the city state of Lochos. Aware that this was no ordinary child, the city guard brought him before the Tyrant of Lochos, Dammekos. Intrigued by the strange, dark child, Dammekos took him into his household as if he were his own family. (…). When the Great Crusade reached Olympia, Perturabo pledged his loyalty to the Emperor and, as was his custom with his Primarchs the Emperor granted Perturabo command of a Space Marine Legion and suzerainty of the planet as the Legion's home. The deposed Tyrant of Lochos spent the last few years of his life trying to marshal support to reclaim Olympia. He failed, but created an undercurrent of unrest that was to be harnessed many years later.”

If anything, Perturabo was the least braggadocious of all his brothers, which is the sole reason he turned.

No way. His only reason? His foster father was killed. Olympia broke into open rebellion. After being despised and treated with disdain for decades, this turned him mad. More from Index Astartes.

Spoiler:

“Perturabo was by this time tired of repeatedly having to prove his worth and now, after all his battles, the thought of being the only Legion unable to hold its own home world appalled him. Horus made the most of the opportunity.
Before his departure, Horus presented Perturabo with the hammer Forgebreaker. It is possible that the weapon acted as a conduit through which the forces of Chaos could manipulate the Iron Warrior Primarch. Alternatively, a mark of respect from such a leader as Horus could have signalled the sealing of a pact between the two.”

The population was massacred or culled into slavery:

Spoiler:

“No one was spared. It was the principle of surrender or no quarter, and the Iron Warriors had grown accustomed to granting no quarter. (…) As the pyres burned through the long Olympian night, the Iron Warriors slowly realised the extent of what they had done. One moment they were humanity's heroes assaulting the Hrud and the next they were committing genocide. Perturabo was like a man emerging from a drunken stupor who finds blood on his hands, only dimly aware of how it got there, but is aware of an oppressive feeling of shame nonetheless. He knew that the Emperor could never forgive him his crime.”

Now we move to Angel Exterminatus. It is a novel, not a background book, so it has far less stuff. Perturabo´s love for mechanisms is all over the place, so I will assume you already knew that.

Prologue: Dammekos, the Tyrant of Lochos, is referred by name. The next time we see Perturabo, the Heresy has started. So there is no reason given for the turning. But McNeill gave us this prologue to keep track with Index Astartes.

Perturabo not having many friends.

Spoiler:

“Perturabo was not a primarch to whom the natural ebb and flow of friendship came easily, and, truth be told, he felt no regret at turning on those who had let his Legion bear the brunt of the hardest fighting. They had stolen the glories of open battle while the Iron Warriors were mired in the broken earth of a thousand worlds.”

Reasons for turning: the fall of Olympia.

Spoiler:

“With the cooling of Olympia’s mass pyres had come the realisation that nothing he could ever do from that moment could ever atone for a worldwide genocide. His father would never forgive him so grievous a sin”

Ferrus being a friend? No mention in Index Astartes, only two mentions in Angel Exterminatus. Please correct me if I am wrong, I may have missed something:

Spoiler:

“He’d once asked Ferrus whether his silver eyes allowed similar insight, but his brother had just shaken his head and given him a look of faint scorn, as though he had just admitted to some secret weakness or vice.”
(…)
‘How do you know of that?’ asked Perturabo, suddenly wary and angry. ‘I told only Ferrus Manus, and he mocked my question.’”

Not friendship at all.

You missed this one: friendship with Magnus:

Spoiler:

‘I’ve only met him a few times,’ said Perturabo after a moment’s consideration. ‘But, yes, I like him. He’s already helped me in translating some of the more obscure texts in my collection. I think he and I will be good friends.’ (…)‘We share a love of learning, and a hunger to know new things,’ said Perturabo. ‘After all, without culture and learning, what’s the point of any crusade? To destroy, to lay waste? No, if a crusade is to have purpose, it needs to forge something better in its wake.’

You were right about Vulcan:

Spoiler:

“ ‘A genius of Old Earth discovered the theoretical principles thousands of years ago, but he lacked the technology to manufacture a working prototype. I have many of his journals and secret papers in my library and was able to extrapolate what had been lost to draw up the schematics for Vulkan to build.’
Fulgrim nodded, already bored. ‘I would have thought Vulkan would have better things to do with his forges, like making guns and swords.’
‘Then you don’t know him at all,’ said Perturabo. ‘His love of the forge encompasses all things, from crafting weapons to fashioning miniature wonders of artifice.’”

That´s three friends, counting Horus, who probably sees him as a tool. Disdain, scorn and being kept at a distance for the rest.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yeah, a lot of the Primarchs oddly like Magnus.

Lorgar, Perturabo, Horus, Sanguinius, the Khan, etc.

I wouldn't say one of the most respected, but hardly the pariah Angron is.

And yet, we also know that he was looked down for his use of Sorcery. Of two of his accusers we know the name: Mortarion and Leman Russ. But we know that the matter divided the Imperium, and that there were many more.

We see the Council of Nikaea from the eyes of Arhiman, and all accusers are hiding their faces. The only exception is Ohtere Wyrdmake of the Wolves, the one opening the trial and making a formal accusation against Magnus. The reason given for this (an order from the Emperor, of course) is the fear Magnus and his studies inspire.

Page 325, A Thousand Sons. “Am I to be tried by faceless observers who hide behind their falsehoods (… ) it is all too easy to hide behind cloaks of anonimity and cast your venom”.

The trial begins. One of the accusers reveals his face: it is Mortarion, who makes his oration. At this point Arhiman loses consciousness. When he awakes, the accusation is over. For three hours, the accusers have had their time. “Quite a coven of witch hunters to condemn us”, says Magnus.

He had friends, but he had many enemies. Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius were “popular” primarchs, not Magnus.

Perturabo also had good relations with Guilliman and the Lion to the point that he was willing to make devices for them.

Where EXACTLY was Perturabo despised by his brothers Perturabo being a difficult guy to get to know and like is different then Perturabo being despised.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


So what you are saying is that you have literally not a damn thing in your post disproving what I said?

I already said that I wouldn't say he was one of the most respected (Like Horus or Sanguinius, to be blunt I'm not sure Guilliman was actually that popular), only that he was hardly a pariah. And even the likes of Leman Russ did not hate Magnus, he was just doing the same thing he always does: Trying to police his brothers. The only one who might have really hated Magnus that isn't a psychopath that hates everyone (Like Angron) was Mortarion... Who actually might be a psychopath that hates everyone, come to think of it.

My bad.

I was quoting you not to disprove anything you said, just to add your words, as a response to this:

 cincydooley wrote:
Magnus sits with Horus and Sanguinius as one of the most respected and trusted Primarchs prior to the fall.

Which I think is wrong. I didn´t say Magnus was a pariah.

The one thing I don´t agree with any of you is Russ not hating Magnus. They clashed more than once. After a violent dispute solved in the last moment by Lorgar, Russ says: "This is not over. Blood of Fenris is on your hands, and there will be a reckoning between us, Magnus: this I swear". He then cuts himself and howls. That was long before Nikaea and Prospero. Page 242, same source.

Something else I am asking you to think about:
Concerning the support given to Magnus on Nikaea, we know nearly nothing of those who spoke against him, just that there were many, but we have the number of those who support him (page 351): 12 chief Librarians. 12 out of 18 Legions, 17 not counting the Thousand Sons. While the accusers took three hours, the supporters needed five minutes, and all of them came from the Legions, no support for Magnus from any force of the Imperium save their brothers. White Scars, Dark Angels, Night Lords (!), Ultramarines and Salamanders are mentioned by name. Perturabo and Lorgar considered themselves friends of Magnus (as seen in Angel Exterminatus and The First Heretic & Aurelian) and Sanguinius was part of the Librarium program since the beginning, so I am counting them in. That´s 8 out of 12. Four missing

Russ and Mortarion as accusers.

So what is it left? Dorn, Ferrus, Angron, Horus, Fulgrim, Corax and Alpharius. Four of them supported Magnus on Nikaea, out of friendship or because they believed in the Librarian project. Three didn´t. Which ones? My guess is




Automatically Appended Next Post:

godking wrote:
Perturabo also had good relations with Guilliman and the Lion to the point that he was willing to make devices for them.

No. Perturabo just loved to build devices. Just like Lorgar loved to write.

The Lion had good relations with no one. He was admired, but a friend of none.

Guilliman opinion of his brothers is well documented. His opinion on Perturabo was low: he described him as "single-minded".
Know no Fear, chapter 3. Page 38.

Page 38 again:

Where EXACTLY was Perturabo despised by his brothers Perturabo being a difficult guy to get to know and like is different then Perturabo being despised

I quoted you the EXACT points were it is said. And you quoted them back to me. Read the post you are answering to.

Perturabo´s sense of being despised, scorned upon, or looked down is instrumental in his character and his fall. It is mentioned in nearly all background about him.

How it comes chaos players suddenly want their Primarchs to be loved? When did this happen?

 da001 wrote:


The one thing I don´t agree with any of you is Russ not hating Magnus. They clashed more than once. After a violent dispute solved in the last moment by Lorgar, Russ says: "This is not over. Blood of Fenris is on your hands, and there will be a reckoning between us, Magnus: this I swear". He then cuts himself and howls. That was long before Nikaea and Prospero. Page 242, same source.

Leman Russ deliberately played the part of a savage barbarian among those not in his inner circle.

In Prospero Burns, speaking to whom he believes (idiotically) to be Magnus while in orbit above Prospero, Leman Russ practically begs him to be taken to Terra quietly, with no resistance, so that he doesn't have to take up arms against his brother.