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Take the correct rite of war and butchers have 6 attacks EACH at strength 5/6 (furious charge) at ap2 hitting last sure, but 2+ 4++ and 6+fnp you will still have a ton of ap2 ws5 attacks coming back at you, combined with re roll charge distance.. Solid assault unit

Meaning they must have rage. Your never going to see them being used competitivly. They are a fluff unit that turned out well. They are NOT cost efficient. If you are in a game where you have enough points to be fielding a squad of 10 of these mutters then your opponent will have lords of war. Meaning he will be splatting your expensive squad remarkably easily. Your expensive squad that is getting hit on 3s and can NEVER SCORE. Yeah that's big.


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The effectiveness of a squad is not measured solely upon damage output. If you think this is a highly competitive unit you don't know the current meta well enough.


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Oh yeah the things that will be shooting them/targeting them will be ignoring FnP and armor saves so your relying on your 4++ against hordes of templates.


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No matter if you are taking Angron your not playing competitively anyway...

Current meta?? There is no current meta for 30k its not played widely enough yet, if your talking vs 40k then yep your right, but then you don't take them.

450 for 20 ws5 2 power axes 2+/4++/6 fnp wounds is pretty good, not amazing true but far from crap as you say it is, also a primarch hitting at str8+ is rare, angron, Ferrus and vulkan are the only ones I can think of (and horus), usually 4/5 attacks, the return attacks will either kill or dent the primarch enough too, basically I'd say butchers are balanced but not astounding.


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Also if you want competitive play, go play 40k, 30k is for fluff and messing around, the last thing I want is to end up having to stop playing fun units because some competitive players are forcing me to play there way or lose allllllll the time, rather than taking things like rampagers or destroyers because I like them.

Just for the record destroyers can be devastating.
Secondly I will address the matter of 30k not having a meta. It doesn't have a meta have such (which obviously indicates I was talking about 40k) but tournaments are hosted specifically for 30k where there is competitive play. Your going to find your army having to go up against 40k opponents as there are so many of them. If you shun playing them forget ever playing a 30k list.

Your last point is absurdly narrow minded. 30k is not merely for fluff. You're telling me after I have just bought a hugely expensive and awesome army that I cannot feasibly play a 40k list and make it work? Sure there are huge differences between the mechanics of the two game types but they can easily be pitted against one another. I personally have now quit war hammer altogether so no longer play but I used to play my 30k SoH against 40k lists to great affect.

Playing 30k is not shutting the door on competitive play. It's opening a new door to new play styles and tactics which can prove incredibly rewarding.

BaconUprising wrote:
Just for the record destroyers can be devastating.
Secondly I will address the matter of 30k not having a meta. It doesn't have a meta have such (which obviously indicates I was talking about 40k) but tournaments are hosted specifically for 30k where there is competitive play. Your going to find your army having to go up against 40k opponents as there are so many of them. If you shun playing them forget ever playing a 30k list.

Your last point is absurdly narrow minded. 30k is not merely for fluff. You're telling me after I have just bought a hugely expensive and awesome army that I cannot feasibly play a 40k list and make it work? Sure there are huge differences between the mechanics of the two game types but they can easily be pitted against one another. I personally have now quit war hammer altogether so no longer play but I used to play my 30k SoH against 40k lists to great affect.

Playing 30k is not shutting the door on competitive play. It's opening a new door to new play styles and tactics which can prove incredibly rewarding.

The Legion list is actually pretty competitive. It's not Tau competitive but It's certainly above most armies.

*Can be. You need to have the right list for the right right opponent. It's hard to make an all comers list. The incentives (aka reduced cost) of having larger units has the positives of increasing damage out put and obviously creates blobs but has negative connotations making them unwieldy and unflexible to use. Terminator lists in Spartan LR with flare shields butcher riptide lists for example. Flyer spam usually is a struggle to deal with in the HH environment as it hurts your lists overall synergy to dedicate large sections of it to AA.
When the points start to increase (like over 2500) the HH list really starts to shine. One feature being the earlier discussed reduced points cost of adding more members, another being our significant options in the Lords of War department. Plus our already awesome double turbolaser warhound gains another awesome void shield and night fight for free. Then you can drop something like Horus or Angron and carve shiit up