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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:16:32
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Using your interpretation, the bolded is incorrect. Split Fire has no such restriction. Since the unit has not targeted anything you can charge anything.
This is true if the unit had no valid target.
In this case it's the same as not using Split-fire at all.
You're not making sense...
The unit can split fire and charge anything, but not the split fire target because its like they didn't split fire at all?
I disagree with your interpretation, however. Where is your allowance to make a shooting attack without firing a weapon?
So you're saying a unit with a single ranged weapon can never make a Split-Fire attack?
Correct.
Looking at the shooting sequence, the unit is eligable to shoot.
It passes stage 1 of the shooting sequence.
Split-fire is used at stage 2, the rest of the unit will fail stage 2 as they have no vaid target in range.
All requirements for unit shooting met as far as split-fire goes, but the "unit" was left with no valid target.
p42 wrote: one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit.
Meaning the rest of his unit must have a valid target - or he wouldn't be shooting a "different" target, he'd just be shooting.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:16:36
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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As per the Split fire rule, you need to resolve the split shot first, then the units (at a different target)
So Ld test, then go through the sequence with the split model, picking target etc...
Then unit's shooting attack. Pick target etc... measure range, no valid targets in range, cannot preform shooting attack.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:19:39
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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grendel083 wrote:As per the Split fire rule, you need to resolve the split shot first, then the units (at a different target)
So Ld test, then go through the sequence with the split model, picking target etc...
Then unit's shooting attack. Pick target etc... measure range, no valid targets in range, cannot preform shooting attack.
So you're just going to ignore the requirement to have to shoot a different target at the beginning of the rule?
And again, "different target" is not the same as "no target".
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:39:46
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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rigeld2 wrote: grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Using your interpretation, the bolded is incorrect. Split Fire has no such restriction. Since the unit has not targeted anything you can charge anything.
This is true if the unit had no valid target.
In this case it's the same as not using Split-fire at all.
You're not making sense...
The unit can split fire and charge anything, but not the split fire target because its like they didn't split fire at all?
You're right, that didn't make much sense. I was agreeing.
I disagree with your interpretation, however. Where is your allowance to make a shooting attack without firing a weapon?
So you're saying a unit with a single ranged weapon can never make a Split-Fire attack?
Correct.
I'll have to disagree here. And say they can.
First off Shotting sequence.
Step 1: Nominate a unit.
Does the unit contain a range weapon? Yes
We know the unit is eligable, so step 1 is complete.
Now using Split Fire:
"If the test is passed choose one model in the unit and immediately make a shooting attack"
For obvious reasons this must be done after step 1. How can you use the unit if you don't nominate it first...
So the one model makes a shooting attack, picking a target etc.
Once complete you move on to the unit's shooting attack.
Starting at Step 2 choose a target.
Target must be different to the above target. If the target is not in range you must choose another target. As there are no targets in range, no target can be chosen. No target is certaily different to the above target.
Now this does bring up the issue of can the unit assault at all?
Is the unit considered to have "Fired"? (relevence of "fired" to follow)
The model that Split-fired has certainlt fired. But does that mean the unit is considered to have fired? The Split fire rule would suggest this is seperate from the unit.
The term fired doesn't have a strictly defined meaning in the rulebook, butis mentioned several times in realtion to the use of ranged weapons.
The "Unit" has fired no range weapons, but did start down the shooting sequence. Does that count as fired?
The relevence of "Fired" is from the assault section: (p20)
"a Unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting Phase"
If the unit has fired, it can only charge what it targeted. In this case nothing. So can't charge.
If the unit was not considered to have fired, then this restriction does not apply, and they're free to charge any valid target.
Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:So you're just going to ignore the requirement to have to shoot a different target at the beginning of the rule?
And again, "different target" is not the same as "no target".
I'm not ignoring it.
"No target" and "A target" are in fact different. One exists the other does not. Very different.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/06 15:44:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:49:07
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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The unit has demonstrably fired - just like if the model didn't have Split Fire and only a single model pulled the trigger, the unit fired.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:51:51
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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rigeld2 wrote:The unit has demonstrably fired - just like if the model didn't have Split Fire and only a single model pulled the trigger, the unit fired.
Or you could state that a single model with split fire has fired, and the unit has done nothing. Nothing has been proven.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 15:53:04
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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Big Blind Bill wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The unit has demonstrably fired - just like if the model didn't have Split Fire and only a single model pulled the trigger, the unit fired.
Or you could state that a single model with split fire has fired, and the unit has done nothing. Nothing has been proven.
Single models don't fire. Units fire. Step 1 of the firing process is to nominate a unit. That must be done before resolving Split Fire. Since the unit was nominated and a single model fired, the unit fired.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:00:20
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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rigeld2 wrote: Big Blind Bill wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The unit has demonstrably fired - just like if the model didn't have Split Fire and only a single model pulled the trigger, the unit fired.
Or you could state that a single model with split fire has fired, and the unit has done nothing. Nothing has been proven.
Single models don't fire. Units fire. Step 1 of the firing process is to nominate a unit. That must be done before resolving Split Fire. Since the unit was nominated and a single model fired, the unit fired.
Single models do fire when they use the split fire special rule. That is the whole point of it after all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:06:03
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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So you can nominate that single model to make a shooting attack, and not nominate the unit?
Funny, that's not what the rule says on page 42...
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:16:25
Subject: Re:Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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"one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit."
You are nominating one model to make a shooting attack.
The issue we have is you believe that "different target" means the original unit must be shooting, but the the rule does not explicitly state this. It just says state a target.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:17:35
Subject: Re:Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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Big Blind Bill wrote:"one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit."
You are nominating one model to make a shooting attack.
The issue we have is you believe that "different target" means the original unit must be shooting, but the the rule does not explicitly state this. It just says state a target.
When does the Split Fire rule allow that single model to make a shooting attack?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:21:17
Subject: Re:Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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rigeld2 wrote: Big Blind Bill wrote:"one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit."
You are nominating one model to make a shooting attack.
The issue we have is you believe that "different target" means the original unit must be shooting, but the the rule does not explicitly state this. It just says state a target.
When does the Split Fire rule allow that single model to make a shooting attack?
When the unit shoots.
Which requires at least one model with an range weapon. Which the unit has.
So the unit does count as having shot despite the fact that after spilt firing, it has no valid target.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:22:03
Subject: Re:Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Big Blind Bill wrote:"one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit."
You are nominating one model to make a shooting attack.
The issue we have is you believe that "different target" means the original unit must be shooting, but the the rule does not explicitly state this. It just says state a target.
When does the Split Fire rule allow that single model to make a shooting attack?
When the unit shoots.
Which requires at least one model with an range weapon. Which the unit has.
So the unit does count as having shot despite the fact that after spilt firing, it has no valid target.
Right - I was teaching to fish rather than handing a fish.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:27:34
Subject: Re:Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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when a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit.
So, the terminators declare a target. Is the target in range? Yes, ok. This unit is the target.
Now a leadership test can be taken to use split fire, if this is passed then one model in the unit may shoot another target which is different from the original.
Now the rest of the unit gets to shoot, but there are no weapons in range. The shooting phase happens but no shots are fired.
Is there any clause which specifically prevents this from happening?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:32:43
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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That's exactly what happens.
But what you missed is that the first half of the sentence says that the unit is shooting.
As grendel said:
When the unit shoots.
Which requires at least one model with an range weapon. Which the unit has.
So the unit does count as having shot despite the fact that after spilt firing, it has no valid target.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:33:34
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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The question being, is a unit that "has shot" (but has no valid target) considered to have have "fired". After all, you can't fire without a target.
The assault restriction is on fired, not shot.
The inconsistant use of terminology is a pain at times.
The model that Split has fired, certainly. But split fire makes the distinction between model and unit. So it could be argued that the "unit" has not fired.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:37:57
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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rigeld2 wrote:That's exactly what happens.
But what you missed is that the first half of the sentence says that the unit is shooting.
As grendel said:
When the unit shoots.
Which requires at least one model with an range weapon. Which the unit has.
So the unit does count as having shot despite the fact that after spilt firing, it has no valid target.
But this statement supports the argument that a unit with one ranged weapon can target one unit, split fire at another, shoot nothing at the original target and then assault it.
I believe this is how it should be played.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:38:30
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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grendel083 wrote:The question being, is a unit that "has shot" (but has no valid target) considered to have have "fired". After all, you can't fire without a target.
The assault restriction is on fired, not shot.
The inconsistant use of terminology is a pain at times.
The model that Split has fired, certainly. But split fire makes the distinction between model and unit. So it could be argued that the "unit" has not fired.
shot/shoot/fire/fired are used interchangeably in the rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:40:51
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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rigeld2 wrote:shot/shoot/fire/fired are used interchangeably in the rules.
Annoyingly they are.
From a RaW point of view I'd have to agree they copunt as having fired.
HIWPI i'd be tempted to say they havn't, due to the distinction between model and unit made by Split Fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:44:34
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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So what we've come down to is:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was shot by the split fire.
Sound correct?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:52:31
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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rigeld2 wrote:So what we've come down to is:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was shot by the split fire.
Sound correct?
Are we talking RaW?
Not quite, they can only assault the unit that the unit targeted, which was nothing. So can assault nothing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/06 16:52:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 16:55:27
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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rigeld2 wrote:So what we've come down to is:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was shot by the split fire.
Sound correct?
I would disagree. This is just a normal shooting phase.
My interpretation would be:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was declared as the target of the unit, before the split fire LD check is rolled. (ie the target that the model attempting to split fire would shoot if the LD check is failed).
I don't believe split fire normally allows a unit with more than 1 ranged weapon the option of charging 1 of 2 units does it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 17:00:26
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So what we've come down to is:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was shot by the split fire.
Sound correct?
Are we talking RaW?
Not quite, they can only assault the unit that the unit targeted, which was nothing. So can assault nothing.
That's true.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 17:10:08
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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rigeld2 wrote: grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So what we've come down to is:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was shot by the split fire.
Sound correct?
Are we talking RaW?
Not quite, they can only assault the unit that the unit targeted, which was nothing. So can assault nothing.
That's true.
How does this logic work with units such as hormaguants? They have no ranged attack, so have no target in the shooting phase. Can they not assault either?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 17:11:53
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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Big Blind Bill wrote:rigeld2 wrote: grendel083 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So what we've come down to is:
A unit that has only a single ranged weapon can split fire. It will be limited to assaulting only the target that was shot by the split fire.
Sound correct?
Are we talking RaW?
Not quite, they can only assault the unit that the unit targeted, which was nothing. So can assault nothing.
That's true.
How does this logic work with units such as hormaguants? They have no ranged attack, so have no target in the shooting phase. Can they not assault either?
Did they shoot? No? Then they aren't restricted to assaulting the unit they shot at.
Meaning they don't have a restriction.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 17:13:20
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
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worh noting that a unit that has no ranged weapons available to them cannot fire.
so in the terms of an initial target having been chosen, you have a single weapon avalable to shoot, this one shot is diverted via split fire, this leaves you with 0 shots to shoot at the initial target.
as in the terms of a 'unit' having fired and a unit consists of models, regardess of targets theres a logical arguement to say that if any model within a unit has made a shooting attack that the unit is considered to have shot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 19:45:47
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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Why not do it the simple way:
Target a, whom you want to charge but not shoot, gets a grenade tossed its way. Even if out of the 8 inch range, which if your charging you shouldnt be much farther than 7 anyway, you can still target it with a grenade toss.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/06 19:55:13
Subject: Split fire and assault with only 1 ranged weapon
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The Hive Mind
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Eihnlazer wrote:Why not do it the simple way:
Target a, whom you want to charge but not shoot, gets a grenade tossed its way. Even if out of the 8 inch range, which if your charging you shouldnt be much farther than 7 anyway, you can still target it with a grenade toss.
a) Not everyone has grenades.
b) No - if you're out of the 8 inch range you can't target them; that unit is not a valid target.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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