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Can a unit of DW terminators, armed with cc weapons and only 1 ranged heavy weapon, use split fire to target a unit in the shooting phase, and then charge another in the assault phase?

HIWPI: certainly, the unit should be able to use split fire, even if there is only 1 ranged weapon in the squad.

Does anyone play this differently? What about units with only 1 model and split fire, does the same rule apply?

You may only charge a unit you shot at. If you shoot at a single unit splitfire won't help you.

But the way the shooting phase works in this case is this:

Declare a target -> leadership check for split fire -> If the test is passed then immediately resolve a shooting attack against a different target -> the rest of the unit resolves their shooting against the original target.

The unit has declared the target of the shooting phase (and this is the one they may assault in the assault phase), and if the LD check is failed then the model attempting to split fire must shoot at it, however if the test is passed then he may shoot at another target. Even if there are no other ranged weapons in the squad, there is no RAW reason as far as I can see why the squad could not charge the unit they declared as the target, even if no shooting actually occured against it.

So you've shot at a unit without shooting at it? Shooting a unit isn't only targetting it as far as I can see

The unit still has a target different to the one that was shot at.

In this case that target is none.

You can only charge something that the unit targeted. By the Split Fire rule the unit's Target MUST be different to the one that was "split-fired" upon.

 grendel083 wrote:
The unit still has a target different to the one that was shot at.

In this case that target is none.

You can only charge something that the unit targeted. By the Split Fire rule the unit's Target MUST be different to the one that was "split-fired" upon.

so you can charge this Target that MUST be different to the one that was "split-fired" upon?

Or you can't?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The unit still has a target different to the one that was shot at.

In this case that target is none.

You can only charge something that the unit targeted. By the Split Fire rule the unit's Target MUST be different to the one that was "split-fired" upon.

so you can charge this Target that MUST be different to the one that was "split-fired" upon?

Or you can't?

Yes.

The unit has to charge it's target.
Lets call it "A" and the unit fired at with Split-Fire is "B"

"A" and "B" must be different. As per the Split fire rule.

The unit is only allowed to Assault "A"
If "A" was never fired upon, then "A" can be any legal unit, just as any other unit that doesn't shoot.
But again "A" can never be "B".

I agree then: You can fire that single weapon you have at "B", fire 0 weapons at your original target "A" and then charge "A"

(unless you meant that differently?)

 BlackTalos wrote:
I agree then: You can fire that single weapon you have at "B", fire 0 weapons at your original target "A" and then charge "A"

(unless you meant that differently?)

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Just adding my voice to agree with the OP and Grendel. That's how we've played it in my local area, and our tournament organizer who used to go to Vegas opens and what not said it's a legal move.

Whether or not it REALLY is or not, who can say? Too many rules, too many different ways to interpret them!

Usually the RaW decide that for you

Ok thanks for the response guys. It seems I'll continue to play the rule the way I have been playing it.

 grendel083 wrote:
You can only charge something that the unit targeted.

I was about to say 'Nuh uh!' but then double-checked the rule... This would appear to be another slight change from last edition, where you could only charge the unit you shot. With the change in wording to 'targeted' this tactic does indeed appear to be legal.

Does it only say targeted on page 20? Sweet lord GW translations are becoming more unreliable every second ....

Semi related question Deathwing

If I split fire a rhino with a CML, im not allowed to fire at the occupants nor assault them with the others in the same squad..

Because im forced to shoot at another target that could be outside my assault range even if the occupants in the wrecked rhino is 2 inches away Im not even allowed to assault them?

And whom would the CML fire his storm bolter at?

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
If I split fire a rhino with a CML, im not allowed to fire at the occupants nor assault them with the others in the same squad.

You can't fire at them no, not with the same squad. You could assault them however.
See page 80, the last section in "Transports and Assaults"

 grendel083 wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
If I split fire a rhino with a CML, im not allowed to fire at the occupants nor assault them with the others in the same squad.

You can't fire at them no, not with the same squad. You could assault them however.
See page 80, the last section in "Transports and Assaults"

Are you sure on this? If he fired at the rhino normally then he could certainly charge the squad.

However if he used split fire to destroy the rhino, then the rhino was never the target of the squad in the shooting phase, only the target of the split fire model.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
And whom would the CML fire his storm bolter at?

The Rhino. You split fire with an entire model, not just one weapon (except Shadowsun, because).

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Bishop F Gantry wrote:
If I split fire a rhino with a CML, im not allowed to fire at the occupants nor assault them with the others in the same squad.

You can't fire at them no, not with the same squad. You could assault them however.
See page 80, the last section in "Transports and Assaults"

Are you sure on this? If he fired at the rhino normally then he could certainly charge the squad.

However if he used split fire to destroy the rhino, then the rhino was never the target of the squad in the shooting phase, only the target of the split fire model.

Interpretation of RaW, but i think Grendel's right:

BRB p20 wrote:a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase

BRB p 42 wrote: one model can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. (...) the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit, which must be at a different target.

When split firing you have 2 "different" targets, and you can only charge the unit targeted = 2
p20 writes Singular target though, and this would enable every split-firing unit the choice at all times. I'm not certain on this one, but i'd lean on Raw= Yes but RaI = No

 BlackTalos wrote:

Interpretation of RaW, but i think Grendel's right:

BRB p20 wrote:a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase

BRB p 42 wrote: one model can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. (...) the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit, which must be at a different target.

When split firing you have 2 "different" targets, and you can only charge the unit targeted = 2
p20 writes Singular target though, and this would enable every split-firing unit the choice at all times. I'm not certain on this one, but i'd lean on Raw= Yes but RaI = No

The unit targeted something, then one model (not the unit) was allowed to fire at a different target. This second 'thing', while certainly a target, was not a target of the unit and as such cannot be charged by said unit.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Interpretation of RaW, but i think Grendel's right:

BRB p20 wrote:a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase

BRB p 42 wrote: one model can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. (...) the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit, which must be at a different target.

When split firing you have 2 "different" targets, and you can only charge the unit targeted = 2
p20 writes Singular target though, and this would enable every split-firing unit the choice at all times. I'm not certain on this one, but i'd lean on Raw= Yes but RaI = No

The unit targeted something, then one model (not the unit) was allowed to fire at a different target. This second 'thing', while certainly a target, was not a target of the unit and as such cannot be charged by said unit.

Both Raw= No and RaI = No then sry Grendel, unless you meant "another unit can charge" but i think we all knew that?

The rhino and the occupants are seperate units.

If a units transport has been destroyed, the occupants can be assaulted by:
1). Any unit that shot the transport,
2). Any unit that shot the occupants after their transport was destroyed,
3). Any unit that didn't shoot during the shooting phase.

Now if the unit used split fire to destroy the transport, then the unit can assault the occupants for reason 3.
This was following the example that the unit had no other range weapons, so the "unit" had no valid shooting target.

If the unit had used range weapons, then the occupants wouldn't have been a valid target, so they'd be unable to assault.

But the squad did have a target.

They had to declare one at the start of the phase and then roll a leadership test to check for split fire. If they test was failed then they have to shoot the original target.

The rules do not state that this original target is no longer the designated target if not shooting attacks occur against it does it?

 grendel083 wrote:
3). Any unit that didn't shoot during the shooting phase.

Now if the unit used split fire to destroy the transport, then the unit can assault the occupants for reason 3.
This was following the example that the unit had no other range weapons, so the "unit" had no valid shooting target.

While i agree with that, the unit's status is still "has shot", because although they used split-fire and "didn't shoot" at [A], the attack on [B] still means one of the models has fired?

Or is there another RaW loophole for this?

(they have at least gone through Phase 1 of shooting, but using split-fire.)

The "unit" did not have a target.
As per the "choose a target" rule on page 12, having no range weapon (since the only range weapon is split-firing) the unit failed the Check Range stage, and had no valid target assigned.

As the "unit" had no shooting target, they are free to charge anything (except what the Split-fire model targeted, as per the Split-fire rule).

Edit: "has shot" is not a restriction, "has targeted" is the important part.

 grendel083 wrote:
The "unit" did not have a target.
As per the "choose a target" rule on page 12, having no range weapon (since the only range weapon is split-firing) the unit failed the Check Range stage, and had no valid target assigned.

As the "unit" had no shooting target, they are free to charge anything (except what the Split-fire model targeted, as per the Split-fire rule).

Edit: "has shot" is not a restriction, "has targeted" is the important part.

Using your interpretation, the bolded is incorrect. Split Fire has no such restriction. Since the unit has not targeted anything you can charge anything.

I disagree with your interpretation, however. Where is your allowance to make a shooting attack without firing a weapon?

rigeld2 wrote:
Using your interpretation, the bolded is incorrect. Split Fire has no such restriction. Since the unit has not targeted anything you can charge anything.

This is true if the unit had no valid target.
In this case it's the same as not using Split-fire at all.

I disagree with your interpretation, however. Where is your allowance to make a shooting attack without firing a weapon?

So you're saying a unit with a single ranged weapon can never make a Split-Fire attack?
Looking at the shooting sequence, the unit is eligable to shoot.
It passes stage 1 of the shooting sequence.
Split-fire is used at stage 2, the rest of the unit will fail stage 2 as they have no vaid target in range.
All requirements for unit shooting met as far as split-fire goes, but the "unit" was left with no valid target.

It all depends on the order of allocating shooting attacks, which I myself are not too sure on.

If you have to declare targets for all units at the start of the phase, then the unit will only be able to charge the one unit which its shooting was originally targeted against.

If the shooting is done unit by unit, then the unit can charge anyone if it passes its leadership test. This is because the split fire can be done before the main unit has to declare its target.

You declare a target, then you need to do some checks to make sure it's valid. If you're not in range, it can't be your target.

It depends on the order.

If you have to declare the unit's shooting first, then the target will be viable as then you have a ranged weapon available. And then split fire occurs. The original target is still the only unit that can be assaulted.

If the Split fire occurs before the unit must declare their target, then you are correct and any target may assaulted.

I have no idea which of thee is correct.