Wyzilla wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

Alright I will stop you there. I may hate the smurfs. But do not insult the awesomeness that happened with fighting against the tyranids. The Hive Fleet. An entire hive fleet with the very few ships they had. The fought on their planet they stopped it dead in its tracks.

They were not slaughtered as badly as everyone makes out. The First Company had one of the coolest land stands ever, under one of the greatest captains in 40k history. Sorry but If you have read the original material you will see it. It is almost as badass as the Space Hulk Deathwing Origin story. They fought against tyranid species that had never been seen before. They fought terrors that a space marine never had seen before.

Helk Space marine chapters were destroyed by hive fleets. (The Lamenters and the Emperor Scythes.)

Space Marines only become warrior monks after that I believe. That is when space marines became what we know today. The first company were more soldiers in the story than warriors.

But anyway, I agree now the Raven Guard are the best chapter for dealing with behind lines combat.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

They lost 100 Men to stop an entire Hive Fleet in it's tracks. The one that was the Hive Mind's attempt to bring a sludgehammer down on the Milky Way, rather than the subtlety and splitting out it's doing now. Not to mention, the Ultramarines won the Battle for Macragge, as well!

In essence, the Ultramarines traded 100 men and a few ships to destroy the Hive Mind's sludgehammer. Entire other chapters have been devoured by tendrils of Hive Fleets, rather than the entire thing.

The Ultramarines have recovered, and continue to smash the Tyranids in every engagement they meet in. The Codex has really screwed them against the Tyranids, right? *eyeroll*

Crazyterran wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

They lost 100 Men to stop an entire Hive Fleet in it's tracks. The one that was the Hive Mind's attempt to bring a sludgehammer down on the Milky Way, rather than the subtlety and splitting out it's doing now. Not to mention, the Ultramarines won the Battle for Macragge, as well!

In essence, the Ultramarines traded 100 men and a few ships to destroy the Hive Mind's sludgehammer. Entire other chapters have been devoured by tendrils of Hive Fleets, rather than the entire thing.

The Ultramarines have recovered, and continue to smash the Tyranids in every engagement they meet in. The Codex has really screwed them against the Tyranids, right? *eyeroll*

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The CODECKS ASTARTES is the holy scripture from the Emperor put into writing by The SPIRITUAL LIEGE for the SPESS MEHRINES to use, it contains such tactics as STEEL REIN.

 Deadshot wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

They lost 100 Men to stop an entire Hive Fleet in it's tracks. The one that was the Hive Mind's attempt to bring a sludgehammer down on the Milky Way, rather than the subtlety and splitting out it's doing now. Not to mention, the Ultramarines won the Battle for Macragge, as well!

In essence, the Ultramarines traded 100 men and a few ships to destroy the Hive Mind's sludgehammer. Entire other chapters have been devoured by tendrils of Hive Fleets, rather than the entire thing.

The Ultramarines have recovered, and continue to smash the Tyranids in every engagement they meet in. The Codex has really screwed them against the Tyranids, right? *eyeroll*

They lost their 100 BEST men, defending one fortress. They took major losses in all companies, but the 1st is mentioned because they are not as easily replaced in terms of experience, skill and knowledge and they were wiped out to 0, rather than just a few scattered members left.

Calgar got his ass kicked and lost a lot of honour guard members. Even worse than losing 1st Company.

They lost a planet. Let's not forget Behemoth also attacked Calth, Prandium and other worlds of Ultramar. Prandium was lost, they're crown jewel.

They lost the Emperor Class Cruiser Dominus Astra in a suicide run, which is the only thing that allowed them to win, besides plot armour.

deepstriker wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The CODECKS ASTARTES is the holy scripture from the Emperor put into writing by The SPIRITUAL LIEGE for the SPESS MEHRINES to use, it contains such tactics as STEEL REIN.

It also tells them FEWLS to hide in MEHTAL BAWKSES! Them FEWLS and cowards!

 Nevelon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Think of it less like an instruction manual or Sun Tzu book of war and more like a massive hoogephuck essay compiled from every source on war that's ever existed, organized into various topics.

This. From a tactics standpoint, I imagine it full of advice and anecdotes. But with the understanding that the battlefield is a messy place, and no plan survives contact with the enemy. I suspect that a inflexible, literal reading might result in some of the flack that it gets, but that's not the spirit that it was written.

Newb Dev sergent: The codex says "Place your heavy weapons on the high ground, to increase their field of fire" so I'll set my squad on that hill.
Wiser Captain: Does the codex not also tell us "Line of fire works both ways" and the Tau outmatch us in long range shooting?
Sgt: But, but, The codex says…
Cpt: It also says "Shoot the choppy ones, and chop the shooty ones." set up in that valley to make sure no kroot infiltrate and disable the whirlwinds, while I and the assault marines outflank their gun line.
Sgt: Yes sir.