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 gorgon wrote:

 Matt1785 wrote:
Meh, I enjoyed reading through the fluff in the book. The major disappointment for me was that the Tyranids are always beaten in the stories. There's truly nothing that dark about the Tyranids because they always lose.

I talked about this in the rumor thread. IMO, the studio doesn't see Tyranids as a proper hero or villain, but something more like a natural disaster to be overcome. That viewpoint then makes its way into all their writing, from fluff to rules.

Why does every SM chapter master get access to Eternal Warrior, while monstrous Tyranid creatures don't? Because it's heroic to have a SM character shrug off wounds that should have easily killed him. It's heroic to have some lowly psyker get lucky with a force toothpick and drop a Tyrannofex or Trygon in one blow. What isn't particularly cinematic or heroic is "Tyrannofex steps on SM officer."

*shrug* It's just the nature of the army.

On the bright side, now I can have several Tyrannofex for the price of one (well not quite, but you know what I mean) so the "avalanche of bugs" is a bit easier to pull off, and really, what's more "Tyranid" than that?

Xyptc wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Matt1785 wrote:
Meh, I enjoyed reading through the fluff in the book. The major disappointment for me was that the Tyranids are always beaten in the stories. There's truly nothing that dark about the Tyranids because they always lose.

I talked about this in the rumor thread. IMO, the studio doesn't see Tyranids as a proper hero or villain, but something more like a natural disaster to be overcome. That viewpoint then makes its way into all their writing, from fluff to rules.

Why does every SM chapter master get access to Eternal Warrior, while monstrous Tyranid creatures don't? Because it's heroic to have a SM character shrug off wounds that should have easily killed him. It's heroic to have some lowly psyker get lucky with a force toothpick and drop a Tyrannofex or Trygon in one blow. What isn't particularly cinematic or heroic is "Tyrannofex steps on SM officer."

*shrug* It's just the nature of the army.

On the bright side, now I can have several Tyrannofex for the price of one (well not quite, but you know what I mean) so the "avalanche of bugs" is a bit easier to pull off, and really, what's more "Tyranid" than that?

Coca cola?

Xyptc wrote:

 Stormphoenix wrote:
I never got that bit about Chaos only being in this galaxy. The Warp doesn't just exist in the galaxy alone, so surely sentient life in other galaxies must generate their own Chaos Gods...

Also, who's to say that although the Warp is a parallel dimension of sorts, that its scale is the same as our universe? Perhaps the Warp is like a blister on the skin of reality, and the blister only covers our galaxy? It's never been stated one way or another.

I can't remember which book its from but it clearly stated that realspace is a bubble in the sea of warp space, which suggests that the warp is everywhere.

 Melissia wrote:
Tyranids created My Little Pony and they don't eat people any more, they just force them to watch episodes of Friendship is Magic.

Truly, this new lore makes them more grimdark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xyptc wrote:
They embody humanoid emotions and concepts, and draw their power from humans (and other humanoids, see the Orks and Gork/Mork)

Orks don't feed Chaos, and are, in fact, quite resistant to it due to their psychology.

If memory serves me doesn't it explain orks do still feed chaos? Especially considering the gods don't really have that much of a focus (they like humanity because of ease of corruption and slaanesh has the eldar theming but xenos aren't past being gobbled up. Also, the god of magic, the god of change, god of war, etc.... why would they not benefit if they are feeding off of Eldar, humans, and an assortment of others. Why not orks as well then? Though perhaps I am wrong it just seems rather odd that they would not.


Psssht not grimdark enough. Come now if you want to go MLP you need to bring out the big guns. 3.5, 2. Nail them with that and watch them squirm. Okay fine maybe nids will die from not eating them but gosh darn it will it be glorious to see them squirm like a zoanthrope mwahahaha

Seems pretty much the same as 5th ed except some changes albeit minor in plot. One I managed to infer from reading from the artefact Ymgarl factor.

In 5th ed, the fluff states that the Ymgarl genestealers are usually not assimilated into the swarm as the hive ship may not wish to deal with their unstable mutations.

The exclusion of the ymgarl genestealers with a artefact called the ymgarl factor that grants their mutation to any in the swarm seems to sughest they've been finally assimilated back into the hive.

 jifel wrote:
The Doom is in there, just not his rules. The best and most noteworthy part was a conflict between Nids and a full Daemonic invasion, which finally answers that question of "Does the Shadow affect Daemons?" Spoilers below...










Nids win, crush the Daemons, who can't corrupt them and lose power due to shadows and lack of fear. Ichor is a poor offer to Khorne and Nids can out-evolve Nurgles plagues, and Nids hate eating Daemons and don't see their corpses as biomass.

That doesn't make sense i can't see how alien bugs could beat daemons, extremely powerful beings made up of pure chaos.

VampireDeLaVega wrote:
That doesn't make sense i can't see how alien bugs could beat daemons, extremely powerful beings made up of pure chaos.

The quote explains it. The Daemons suffer due to being unable to corrupt the Tyranids, and the shadow in the warp hurts the Daemons a little (since they're beings made up entirely of warp energy).

IIRC, its stated somewhere that the warp doesn't exist beyond the boundaries of our galaxy and that the interstellar void is reflected in the immaterium as an unfathomable nothingness (though this doesn't necessarily mean that other galaxies don't have their own instances of the warp).

The shadow doesn't affect deamons at all, it's when the nids work out that warp energy and big guns can kill deamons they start to lose, the deamons up to that point are crushing the nids, the interesting point is that nids consider deamons a rival predator that competes for a food source.

Seems the thing to take from this is that if the deamons can maintain a stable warp rift then the nids simply cannot win, and on the flip side if the nids work out how to destabilise said warp rift deamons can't possibly win.

I wanted some fluff where they invaded a tomb world, that woulda been fun

I remember in the last Daemons codex, or possibly the last Tyranids codex there was a short paragraph about Tyranids fighting Daemons and they Grey Knights used exterminatus on the planet as it was implied their was some kind of horrific mutations going on and the world was far beyond redemption. Does that story hint at any of these kinds of things?

 Formosa wrote:
The shadow doesn't affect deamons at all, it's when the nids work out that warp energy and big guns can kill deamons they start to lose, the deamons up to that point are crushing the nids, the interesting point is that nids consider deamons a rival predator that competes for a food source.

Seems the thing to take from this is that if the deamons can maintain a stable warp rift then the nids simply cannot win, and on the flip side if the nids work out how to destabilise said warp rift deamons can't possibly win.

I wanted some fluff where they invaded a tomb world, that woulda been fun

I doubt they'd bother. Not much organic life to be had on one of those worlds.

 Formosa wrote:
The shadow doesn't affect deamons at all, it's when the nids work out that warp energy and big guns can kill deamons they start to lose, the deamons up to that point are crushing the nids, the interesting point is that nids consider deamons a rival predator that competes for a food source.

Seems the thing to take from this is that if the deamons can maintain a stable warp rift then the nids simply cannot win, and on the flip side if the nids work out how to destabilise said warp rift deamons can't possibly win.

I wanted some fluff where they invaded a tomb world, that woulda been fun

Hmm not quite true - the codex says:

"...the city was smothered by blanket of muffling psionic static that caused the Daemons to flicker and fade"

"The Hive Mind was leeching their energies, servering the Daemons from the sustaining powers of the Empyrean"

It also smothers their pyskchic powers like any other psyker.....

 Formosa wrote:
The shadow doesn't affect deamons at all, it's when the nids work out that warp energy and big guns can kill deamons they start to lose, the deamons up to that point are crushing the nids, the interesting point is that nids consider deamons a rival predator that competes for a food source.

Seems the thing to take from this is that if the deamons can maintain a stable warp rift then the nids simply cannot win, and on the flip side if the nids work out how to destabilise said warp rift deamons can't possibly win.

I wanted some fluff where they invaded a tomb world, that woulda been fun

Makes sense, it's a case of which side gets to deploy the infinite numbers card (or rather, counter the other side's infinite numbers card). I'm glad they put this in, it's one of those things that players have speculated on and it's nice to see it being looked at in the fluff. It's just a single encounter too, so it's not a hard and fast "Tyranids always win" or "Daemons always win" either; plenty of wiggle room depending on story and situation.

The Great Four are limited to the Milky Way. The "dead space" between galaxies apparently acts as a "buffer zone" between regions of the Warp and the area the Chaos Gods can effectively influence.

It should also be noted that 3 out of 4 of the Great Four were created by humans or as a direct result of actions on Terra.

The odds of the C'Tan having been the creators of the Tyranids seems... slim, as it is very much unlike the C'Tan. They were not really creators of anything, they just drifted about, being all star-goddish and unknowable, eating stars and such before they noticed the Necrontyr.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I remember in the last Daemons codex, or possibly the last Tyranids codex there was a short paragraph about Tyranids fighting Daemons and they Grey Knights used exterminatus on the planet as it was implied their was some kind of horrific mutations going on and the world was far beyond redemption. Does that story hint at any of these kinds of things?

They have a new daemon/tyranid battle. It is pretty good.

VampireDeLaVega wrote:

That doesn't make sense i can't see how alien bugs could beat daemons, extremely powerful beings made up of pure chaos.

It was in the material realm. Presumably, within the warp, pretty much nothing has any chance against daemons if the gods are really serious about it (I'll assume they're letting Draigo stomp around there because it's entertaining. After all, nothing he does in there has any real consequence so why not see how many of your servants he can bop on the head if it's giving you a good show?)

On a planet outside the warp however? Daemons only have limited time there in the first place without a constant source of the right type of emotional/soul energy, which Tyrannids don't provide (the things aren't even sentient in most cases).

I don't think the Gods are limited to one galaxy or even just one universe. In Dead Sky Black Sun they talk about another galaxy having being butchered for Khorne and the Daemon Codex talks about Tzeentch hearing the dreams of every sentient in the universe.

Black Library books are not known for their adherence to the information presented in the Codices.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
The shadow doesn't affect deamons at all, it's when the nids work out that warp energy and big guns can kill deamons they start to lose, the deamons up to that point are crushing the nids, the interesting point is that nids consider deamons a rival predator that competes for a food source.

Seems the thing to take from this is that if the deamons can maintain a stable warp rift then the nids simply cannot win, and on the flip side if the nids work out how to destabilise said warp rift deamons can't possibly win.

I wanted some fluff where they invaded a tomb world, that woulda been fun

Hmm not quite true - the codex says:

"...the city was smothered by blanket of muffling psionic static that caused the Daemons to flicker and fade"

"The Hive Mind was leeching their energies, servering the Daemons from the sustaining powers of the Empyrean"

It also smothers their pyskchic powers like any other psyker.....

Wait... so the hive mind can now leech daemon energy huh? Thought it was biomass and how do you smother the psychic power of a daemon if a daemon is not a psyker but instead is just warp stuff massed together? And I still don't quite get if the shadow is just a blotter or void. Void really doesn't make much sense but I've heard it that way many a time.

In terms of the domains of the warp gods, both are right and wrong! Because there's so many claims of canon that you can't tell one over the other they might just both be propoganda xD

 Stormphoenix wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 Stormphoenix wrote:
I never got that bit about Chaos only being in this galaxy. The Warp doesn't just exist in the galaxy alone, so surely sentient life in other galaxies must generate their own Chaos Gods...

Also, who's to say that although the Warp is a parallel dimension of sorts, that its scale is the same as our universe? Perhaps the Warp is like a blister on the skin of reality, and the blister only covers our galaxy? It's never been stated one way or another.

I can't remember which book its from but it clearly stated that realspace is a bubble in the sea of warp space, which suggests that the warp is everywhere.

I think you are conflating the description of the function of a Gellar Field around a starship and transposing it to all of reality.

Nahh I know what a Gellar field is I think it was 3rd edition Chaos? It stated that the Gods are not in any particular hurry to take over the galaxy as the warp was there before the bubble of the material universe appeared and will be there after it's gone.

Hrm... I'll have to check. The language of the passage, the whole bubble-reference, just seems so very similar to the description of how a Gellar Field works.

I mean, I like the idea of the Warp being a universe-wide thing but it's kind of contraindicated by other fluff that indicates that humanity created 3 out of 4 major Chaos Gods and that the only signs of extra-galactic, non-Tyranid life have been Orky.

It is possible that the warp is an universal thing, but that at the same time the Chaos Gods are limited to this galaxy.

Anything for the popular ork holiday destination known as the octarius war?

They do talk about how the orks and the nids are fighting it out. Neather side seems to be winning or loosing, although the tyranids are branching out to get more biomass to fuel the war.

Basicly they use the war as a backdrop to explain how a small fleet of tyranids are crasping for food in a plannet with orks on it. The nids gurilla fight the orks and they manadge to kille the pirate ork controling that plannet. The orks fall apart and the nids absorb bio mass and joins the big fight, and it is back to the backdrop. Presumably these sort of things a are played out all near this war with both teams winning some battles.

I like soup.

The Warp used to be a calm place where the Warp Xeno's lived happily ... until all the psychic races turned up and turned it into a hellish stormy sea.

Which makes sense why they hate all life I guess!

Even handier for them to realise they can feed off emotion and influence things essentially in a different universe (reality)

Can't read it for several months. Did they change anything to ymgarl? I think I heard that they still have a small excerpt in maybe (the doom does I know that). Does it change the fluff in any way?

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait... so the hive mind can now leech daemon energy huh? Thought it was biomass and how do you smother the psychic power of a daemon if a daemon is not a psyker but instead is just warp stuff massed together? And I still don't quite get if the shadow is just a blotter or void. Void really doesn't make much sense but I've heard it that way many a time.

In terms of the domains of the warp gods, both are right and wrong! Because there's so many claims of canon that you can't tell one over the other they might just both be propoganda xD

Your not understanding things properly. To put things properly, using D&D, the Tyranids have a null field. You know, those nifty little artifacts that emit a field of "No Magic" while it is uncovered because it is so strongly imbued with negative energy? The Hive Mind doesn't leech anything, it simply directs. The Tyranids gobble up the biomass, which includes most of the planet, then move on. The Hive Mind simply is that null field. A communal intelligence so strong that it nullifies the warp in the general area by saturating it with itself beyond the warp's limits. The demons rely on those emotions used by sentient beings to empower their forms, such as rage, etc. Khornate daemons cant feed off the battle because what is being spilled is just Tyranid ichor. There are countless beasts howling and attacking, but they aren't bloodthirsty warriors angry and fighting for a home and family, etc. Simply drones attacking with a mindless attitude. Daemons of Nurgle tried to force disease onto them, but they continuously adapted. No emotions fed the daemons of Slaanesh, and I am not really sure what the daemons of Tzeentch would have gotten out of this. They all starved on a lack of emotion.

In other words, the Tyranids are just to alien to Chaos.