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 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Let him. We still have Irish whiskey

It's barely above the quality of American "Whiskey"

Bollocks. Irish whiskey ftw, The difference in spelling was originally to differentiate it from the inferior scottish whisky. (I'm not 100% serious before someone explodes. Though I do prefer Irish whiskey.)

I think the UK could be an interesting place soon. The scottish independence vote, followed by a potential UK split from the EU. I reckon both would be bad moves, especially in the current environment, but I will wait and see what happens.

I reckon all of these movements are not really about nationalism, at the base, but rather at how undemocratic our systems of government have become, or at least, how they are perceived.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
It's barely above the quality of American "Whiskey"

Jealousy is a terrible trait

 Da Boss wrote:
I think the UK could be an interesting place soon. The scottish independence vote, followed by a potential UK split from the EU. I reckon both would be bad moves, especially in the current environment, but I will wait and see what happens.

I reckon all of these movements are not really about nationalism, at the base, but rather at how undemocratic our systems of government have become, or at least, how they are perceived.

It'll be interesting to see what, if any, impact it has on Northern Ireland

 Da Boss wrote:
Bollocks. Irish whiskey ftw, The difference in spelling was originally to differentiate it from the inferior scottish whisky. (I'm not 100% serious before someone explodes. Though I do prefer Irish whiskey.)

I think the UK could be an interesting place soon. The scottish independence vote, followed by a potential UK split from the EU. I reckon both would be bad moves, especially in the current environment, but I will wait and see what happens.

I reckon all of these movements are not really about nationalism, at the base, but rather at how undemocratic our systems of government have become, or at least, how they are perceived.

You're pretty much bang-on(about the nationalism not the whisky, you philistine ). The only reason that the Yes campaign are in with a shot of winning this referendum is that people like myself have realised we live in a country we don't like, and that the standard democratic process isn't going to change that. If the SNP had gone with a more aggressive traditional nationalism, as opposed to the gradualist civic-nationalism via devolution route they have taken, I'd wager we wouldn't even be having this referendum in the first place, because contrary to the views of some pro-union op-ed writers who think we're all Braveheart-quoting kilt-wearing nutters, the attitude up here towards overt displays of nationalistic fervor(outside of sporting or other special events) is pretty much the same as it is most places in the UK and Europe; a wee bit embarrassed, and a wee bit concerned.

If I seriously believed there was a chance to reform the UK, even if that was only to the point of a federal republic(and I'd prefer something much more radical myself, had a fascinating discussion with someone the other day over his ideas for a party-less direct democracy/demarchy hybrid system and how to sell that to people post-independence), I'd be voting no, but there simply isn't - none of the Westminster parties want real change, and I'm no longer willing to wait decades for something we could have in just a couple of years time. I'd obviously disagree with your proposition that Scottish independence would be a bad idea, not just because I think it's our only real chance of charting a different socio-economic course from the UK, enthralled as its political class is with neo-liberalism, but from a European perspective as well. I'd think it was lamentable if the remaining UK left the EU in 2017, but realistically if it's going to happen it will whether Scotland's still part of the country or not - we simply don't have enough voters to meaningfully impact the result unless it's very close, and the opinion polling suggests it won't be. So from a European perspective, which prospect is more appealing; resource-rich and, if not ardently pro-EU at least not anti-EU, and aware of its benefits, Scotland as an independent moderately left-of-centre northern European member state - with the remaining UK, in or out, somewhat diminished - or the UK as it stands today, in or out, continuing to prop up its unsustainable casino banking sector with austerity and North Sea oil revenues, and hurling its own gak at all of you whenever the EU tries to get anything done?

I will admit, my feeling is nothing more than my gut telling me, and my guts are full of gak. I think I probably just fear change and instability right now. (Republic of) Ireland has had a rough few years and I'm worried any instability in the region could set it back, directly impacting my family.

However, I find your arguments to be honest, earnest and compelling. I enjoy reading your posts here. I'm not really informed enough to have a strong opinion myself, but I find your points well considered and also appealing because they come from an ethical frame rather than a purely economic one. So, you are sort of swaying me from my previously much more anti-independence stance (not helped by the fact that I have a co-worker who is ardently anti-english in an unpleasant way, and muddles up the history of Ulster with that of Scotland. She's a Glasgow Catholic and her father emigrated from the North, so it's understandable, but it had made me initially think that the movement was based in sectarianism and nationalism, both of which I despise.)

 Da Boss wrote:
I will admit, my feeling is nothing more than my gut telling me, and my guts are full of gak. I think I probably just fear change and instability right now. (Republic of) Ireland has had a rough few years and I'm worried any instability in the region could set it back, directly impacting my family.

However, I find your arguments to be honest, earnest and compelling. I enjoy reading your posts here. I'm not really informed enough to have a strong opinion myself, but I find your points well considered and also appealing because they come from an ethical frame rather than a purely economic one. So, you are sort of swaying me from my previously much more anti-independence stance (not helped by the fact that I have a co-worker who is ardently anti-english in an unpleasant way, and muddles up the history of Ulster with that of Scotland. She's a Glasgow Catholic and her father emigrated from the North, so it's understandable, but it had made me initially think that the movement was based in sectarianism and nationalism, both of which I despise.)

Aye sectarianism is certainly the unpleasant underbelly of Scotland, and no matter how much my fellow East coast supposedly-more-sophisticated sorts try to pretend otherwise, not a problem limited to Glasgow and its surrounds, although decades of gak-stirring by some among the political class has made it particularly evident there. Interestingly, the independence debate seems to be crossing that divide in much the same way it's making a mockery of the normal party politics; I was struck the other day with the most bizarre combination of reactions when I found out there's apparently an "Orange Order for Yes" action group and by the same token you won't find anywhere near universal support for independence among those with Irish Catholic ancestry as some are worried that independence might threaten the provision of Catholic schools among other issues.

I think the most depressing thing that's happened so far in the independence debate is professional rent-a-gakker(and possibly the greatest waste of a genuine talent for oration I've ever seen) George Galloway's recent attempts to try and stir up that particular hornet's nest.

I appreciate the complement as well As for ethics and economics, I've always thought the distinction drawn between those two, and between ethics and politics, even politics and economics, and politics and sociology; all to me seem artificial, driven by the necessity to divorce common decency from the day-to-day running of the state and national affairs in order for neoliberal pseudoeconomics to function. This idea that "the market" is some abstract, almost sentient entity that must be appeased and given rights and agency of its own, it's always seemed faintly ludicrous to me. The fact that it's opening up space for things like the Common Weal project is one of the main reasons I was attracted to the independence debate in the first place - this is stuff that just wouldn't get off the ground in the UK context because any politician who dared propose it would be savaged by UKIP and the Daily Mail.

First post updated with new story.