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herpguy wrote:
Right when Escalation came out a bunch of people at my FLGS apparently ordered Revenants/Warhounds from a Chinese site. I am dreading when they finally get built and they all start using them, especially since the store seems insistent on not banning anything at their tournaments.

Already happened at mine. Had a tourney with 18 attendants, about half of which are never there, just show up for tournaments.

All of 3 titan models show up, elder revenant, necron one, and the chaos khorne tank surprisingly. Unsuprisingly all made it to the final tables.

A week ago they tried another tournament. 6 people showed up, including the 3 with the same titans. Tournament was canceled due to not enough attendance to cover the prizes.

Now they have a flyer for the next one in 3 weeks, they have completely banned escalation and stronghold. Maybe too late, maybe they will come back.

What I did find interesting is a couple of regulars at the shop were asked for a game by the guy with the revenant. Both refused a game. One of the guys I have never known to refuse a game, even a cheezy 4 riptide list

hehehe. TO's have the power to say no. Pray that they do.

Me... wrote:
...

Games are made for fun. 40k is a game. Playing WAAC is not fun; nor is crushing the spirit of friendly gaming.

...

Playing Tau and Eldar does not mean you win. Using boring spamlists (or alike) does in a WAAC enviroment. Friendly enviroments are a lot more fun to play in; you can base your list on tactics and not bring the best units; instead have an even game and keep your friends.

This kind of apologist mindset always really ticks me off. "The game is fine! You're just playing it wrong!" It's like saying that poker is fun so long as nobody bluffs.

Yeah you might enjoy that more, but it's not poker anymore. It's some hybrid game that you invented, based on rules everyone you play with tacitly agreed upon. Drive 10 minutes in any direction and you'll find a group who plays differently. People who play poker with dice, or with their hands face-up, or explicitly as written. People who play stud or hold'em or omaha.

WH40K isn't a broken game because people are "playing it wrong," it's broken because you NEED to impose these restrictions to make it fun for everyone. That's the sign of a fundamentally unbalanced and poorly designed game. Houseruling only works so long as everybody agrees on the rules, and what is and isn't determined to be fair is a highly subjective and contentious issue.

 Orock wrote:

herpguy wrote:
Right when Escalation came out a bunch of people at my FLGS apparently ordered Revenants/Warhounds from a Chinese site. I am dreading when they finally get built and they all start using them, especially since the store seems insistent on not banning anything at their tournaments.

Already happened at mine. Had a tourney with 18 attendants, about half of which are never there, just show up for tournaments.

All of 3 titan models show up, elder revenant, necron one, and the chaos khorne tank surprisingly. Unsuprisingly all made it to the final tables.

A week ago they tried another tournament. 6 people showed up, including the 3 with the same titans. Tournament was canceled due to not enough attendance to cover the prizes.

Now they have a flyer for the next one in 3 weeks, they have completely banned escalation and stronghold. Maybe too late, maybe they will come back.

What I did find interesting is a couple of regulars at the shop were asked for a game by the guy with the revenant. Both refused a game. One of the guys I have never known to refuse a game, even a cheezy 4 riptide list

Wow, well that's exactly what I'm worried about happening at mine... I know it will.
I already fought a stompa last tournament. I won, but I had basically his whole army killed turn 4 and then he had his warlord and a bunch of meks in it so it was indestructible. The rest of the game was just spent sitting there weathering the fire. It was just not a fun game. Then next tournament I raped a SM player so bad he said my list (flying circus) is the reason "D weapons are now necessary for the game." The only reason I brought it is because I was scared of D weapons invalidating any other list.

In my club we are used to that. 40k is the go-to game for everyone. Still there are normally downtimes where it will be played less overall. Still on club nights theres usually at least one game of 40k going on.

At the moment we are playing a dreadball league and a lot of people are really pumped about the game (me too - FANTASTIC game!). Normally interest in new games fades over time and people start playing 40k again.

What im trying to say is:
People just sometimes need a break and most of the time this leads to additional people taking a break. Than someone refires the interest through a new army and 40k is back to the top played game again . So if this trend doesnt continue for the rest of the year you shouldnt be worried.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Me... wrote:
...

Games are made for fun. 40k is a game. Playing WAAC is not fun; nor is crushing the spirit of friendly gaming.

...

Playing Tau and Eldar does not mean you win. Using boring spamlists (or alike) does in a WAAC enviroment. Friendly enviroments are a lot more fun to play in; you can base your list on tactics and not bring the best units; instead have an even game and keep your friends.

This kind of apologist mindset always really ticks me off. "The game is fine! You're just playing it wrong!" It's like saying that poker is fun so long as nobody bluffs.

Yeah you might enjoy that more, but it's not poker anymore. It's some hybrid game that you invented, based on rules everyone you play with tacitly agreed upon. Drive 10 minutes in any direction and you'll find a group who plays differently. People who play poker with dice, or with their hands face-up, or explicitly as written. People who play stud or hold'em or omaha.

WH40K isn't a broken game because people are "playing it wrong," it's broken because you NEED to impose these restrictions to make it fun for everyone. That's the sign of a fundamentally unbalanced and poorly designed game. Houseruling only works so long as everybody agrees on the rules, and what is and isn't determined to be fair is a highly subjective and contentious issue.

The difference being that poker has strict rules, while GW explicitly states that it's rules should not be taken as such but that they are simple guidelines. A framework upon which you have to build your own game.
At it's core, 40k is meant as a roleplaying game, not a competitive one, which is probably why GW does not write any better rules.
It is not an apologist mindset, GW clearly outlines the way you should be playing this game in the rulebook.
I'll quote:

The Spirit of the Game
Warhammer 40.000 may be somewhat different to any other
game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember
that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable
game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your
goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more,
Warhammer 40.000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your
job isn't to just follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas,
drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this
game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows;
it is in this spirit that the rules have written.

In other words, a competitive mindset does not fit into into the spirit of the game, and you are actually encouraged to make up your own rules.
You may complain about the unbalanced and poorly designed rules, that is your full right, but judging from the above, as well as the myriad other hints to this in the rulebook, I do not think GW aims to provide well balanced rules.
GW has it's own vision for the game. While that vision may be unkown, I think we can get a pretty good hint from the rulebook. And if GW's vision of the game conflicts with your own, you are probably playing it wrong.

40k is going strong at my local, though weakening everywhere else in the city. Don't know if that is because the game is dying, or they all just go to the one store. I am seeing a lot more non GW going on though, the other day I had to bargain a table from some guys playing sails of glory and flames of war

Warhammer 40.000 may be somewhat different to any other
game you have played.

In other words, a competitive mindset does not fit into into the spirit of the game, and you are actually encouraged to make up your own rules.

I have never see anyone play any game , where there was an option to win or lose , that way .

 Iron_Captain wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Me... wrote:
...

Games are made for fun. 40k is a game. Playing WAAC is not fun; nor is crushing the spirit of friendly gaming.

...

Playing Tau and Eldar does not mean you win. Using boring spamlists (or alike) does in a WAAC enviroment. Friendly enviroments are a lot more fun to play in; you can base your list on tactics and not bring the best units; instead have an even game and keep your friends.

This kind of apologist mindset always really ticks me off. "The game is fine! You're just playing it wrong!" It's like saying that poker is fun so long as nobody bluffs.

Yeah you might enjoy that more, but it's not poker anymore. It's some hybrid game that you invented, based on rules everyone you play with tacitly agreed upon. Drive 10 minutes in any direction and you'll find a group who plays differently. People who play poker with dice, or with their hands face-up, or explicitly as written. People who play stud or hold'em or omaha.

WH40K isn't a broken game because people are "playing it wrong," it's broken because you NEED to impose these restrictions to make it fun for everyone. That's the sign of a fundamentally unbalanced and poorly designed game. Houseruling only works so long as everybody agrees on the rules, and what is and isn't determined to be fair is a highly subjective and contentious issue.

The difference being that poker has strict rules, while GW explicitly states that it's rules should not be taken as such but that they are simple guidelines. A framework upon which you have to build your own game.
At it's core, 40k is meant as a roleplaying game, not a competitive one, which is probably why GW does not write any better rules.
It is not an apologist mindset, GW clearly outlines the way you should be playing this game in the rulebook.
I'll quote:

The Spirit of the Game
Warhammer 40.000 may be somewhat different to any other
game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember
that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable
game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your
goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more,
Warhammer 40.000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your
job isn't to just follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas,
drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this
game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows;
it is in this spirit that the rules have written.

In other words, a competitive mindset does not fit into into the spirit of the game, and you are actually encouraged to make up your own rules.
You may complain about the unbalanced and poorly designed rules, that is your full right, but judging from the above, as well as the myriad other hints to this in the rulebook, I do not think GW aims to provide well balanced rules.
GW has it's own vision for the game. While that vision may be unkown, I think we can get a pretty good hint from the rulebook. And if GW's vision of the game conflicts with your own, you are probably playing it wrong.

This may work in D&D to some degree, since there's a DM running the game and calling the shots who is the ultimate authority on matters of house rules and interpretation, but unless your FLGS or circle of friends you play with exclusively makes up its own official house rules or something of the sort this is an utter impossibility for a game like WH40K, where you can't expect random people you have a pickup game with to automatically accept your made up rules or have an hours long sit down with you prior to the game to decide on rules you can both agree on.

 Galorian wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Me... wrote:
...

Games are made for fun. 40k is a game. Playing WAAC is not fun; nor is crushing the spirit of friendly gaming.

...

Playing Tau and Eldar does not mean you win. Using boring spamlists (or alike) does in a WAAC enviroment. Friendly enviroments are a lot more fun to play in; you can base your list on tactics and not bring the best units; instead have an even game and keep your friends.

This kind of apologist mindset always really ticks me off. "The game is fine! You're just playing it wrong!" It's like saying that poker is fun so long as nobody bluffs.

Yeah you might enjoy that more, but it's not poker anymore. It's some hybrid game that you invented, based on rules everyone you play with tacitly agreed upon. Drive 10 minutes in any direction and you'll find a group who plays differently. People who play poker with dice, or with their hands face-up, or explicitly as written. People who play stud or hold'em or omaha.

WH40K isn't a broken game because people are "playing it wrong," it's broken because you NEED to impose these restrictions to make it fun for everyone. That's the sign of a fundamentally unbalanced and poorly designed game. Houseruling only works so long as everybody agrees on the rules, and what is and isn't determined to be fair is a highly subjective and contentious issue.

The difference being that poker has strict rules, while GW explicitly states that it's rules should not be taken as such but that they are simple guidelines. A framework upon which you have to build your own game.
At it's core, 40k is meant as a roleplaying game, not a competitive one, which is probably why GW does not write any better rules.
It is not an apologist mindset, GW clearly outlines the way you should be playing this game in the rulebook.
I'll quote:

The Spirit of the Game
Warhammer 40.000 may be somewhat different to any other
game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember
that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable
game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your
goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more,
Warhammer 40.000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your
job isn't to just follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas,
drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this
game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows;
it is in this spirit that the rules have written.

In other words, a competitive mindset does not fit into into the spirit of the game, and you are actually encouraged to make up your own rules.
You may complain about the unbalanced and poorly designed rules, that is your full right, but judging from the above, as well as the myriad other hints to this in the rulebook, I do not think GW aims to provide well balanced rules.
GW has it's own vision for the game. While that vision may be unkown, I think we can get a pretty good hint from the rulebook. And if GW's vision of the game conflicts with your own, you are probably playing it wrong.

This may work in D&D to some degree, since there's a DM running the game and calling the shots who is the ultimate authority on matters of house rules and interpretation, but unless your FLGS or circle of friends you play with exclusively makes up its own official house rules or something of the sort this is an utter impossibility for a game like WH40K, where you can't expect random people you have a pickup game with to automatically accept your made up rules or have an hours long sit down with you prior to the game to decide on rules you can both agree on.

Yeah, I have never met anyone in a pick up game who used custom rules. They just played straight from the book.
Another bit of evidence that shows that GW doesn't know their own customer base.

Anyone live in NJ? I trying find stores still play 40k but ever since realms closed down there hasn't been one.

 Dragoonofdarkness wrote:
Anyone live in NJ? I trying find stores still play 40k but ever since realms closed down there hasn't been one.

Try posting in the Find a Game area.

Will do thanks, sorry still new to this site..

No worries. Best of Luck!

 Iron_Captain wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Me... wrote:
...

Games are made for fun. 40k is a game. Playing WAAC is not fun; nor is crushing the spirit of friendly gaming.

...

Playing Tau and Eldar does not mean you win. Using boring spamlists (or alike) does in a WAAC enviroment. Friendly enviroments are a lot more fun to play in; you can base your list on tactics and not bring the best units; instead have an even game and keep your friends.

This kind of apologist mindset always really ticks me off. "The game is fine! You're just playing it wrong!" It's like saying that poker is fun so long as nobody bluffs.

Yeah you might enjoy that more, but it's not poker anymore. It's some hybrid game that you invented, based on rules everyone you play with tacitly agreed upon. Drive 10 minutes in any direction and you'll find a group who plays differently. People who play poker with dice, or with their hands face-up, or explicitly as written. People who play stud or hold'em or omaha.

WH40K isn't a broken game because people are "playing it wrong," it's broken because you NEED to impose these restrictions to make it fun for everyone. That's the sign of a fundamentally unbalanced and poorly designed game. Houseruling only works so long as everybody agrees on the rules, and what is and isn't determined to be fair is a highly subjective and contentious issue.

The difference being that poker has strict rules, while GW explicitly states that it's rules should not be taken as such but that they are simple guidelines. A framework upon which you have to build your own game.
At it's core, 40k is meant as a roleplaying game, not a competitive one, which is probably why GW does not write any better rules.
It is not an apologist mindset, GW clearly outlines the way you should be playing this game in the rulebook.
I'll quote:

The Spirit of the Game
Warhammer 40.000 may be somewhat different to any other
game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember
that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable
game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your
goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more,
Warhammer 40.000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your
job isn't to just follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas,
drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this
game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows;
it is in this spirit that the rules have written.

In other words, a competitive mindset does not fit into into the spirit of the game, and you are actually encouraged to make up your own rules.
You may complain about the unbalanced and poorly designed rules, that is your full right, but judging from the above, as well as the myriad other hints to this in the rulebook, I do not think GW aims to provide well balanced rules.
GW has it's own vision for the game. While that vision may be unkown, I think we can get a pretty good hint from the rulebook. And if GW's vision of the game conflicts with your own, you are probably playing it wrong.

I absolutely disagree with you.

If you want to play Warhammer as a narrative roleplaying game with your friends then you are absolutely free to do that, and there are abundant campaign rules around for you to do that.

But you can't play a pickup game like that. You can't go to a tournament like that. You can't go to gamesday like that. GW can cry all they want about the spirit of the rules, but at the end of the day the only thing all of their players have in common is the core rules that GW produces. THAT is Warhammer. That's the game that anybody who picks up this hobby can play.

GW doesn't write better rules to allow you flexibility for your own creativity. They write crappy rules because they make money selling minis, and the game is an entirely ancillary concern for them. Time and time again they've stated that they consider themselves a model retailer first and a games company last. They just keep piling more overpowered, undercosted, poorly balanced gak onto the fire because they know that people will buy it. Buy it BECAUSE the rules are broken. Don't be naive and think they're not doing that purposely to sell models. All that talk about "open-ended rules" is just a bs cop-out, so that they can excuse the poorly written rules that they CHARGED us for, and explain why they don't take any time to publish decent FAQs or do any rebalancing.

The funny thing is that they've shown they at least sorta know how to do it. WHFB is a thousand times better balanced than 40k is, despite all their attempts to feth it up. Perhaps 7th edition will be where we see the wake-up call. Some recognition that they know they've broken this game.

In our group, there is a tendency from 40k to Warmahordes these days. Almost everybody has picked up a WM faction to be used in the tourney in March.

 wuestenfux wrote:
In our group, there is a tendency from 40k to Warmahordes these days. Almost everybody has picked up a WM faction to be used in the tourney in March.

yup that is what I have done for the first time ever, started a new game. I have been playing since about a month after 3rd launched, but the new rules and unaccountability by gw to explain their horrible decisions has finally made me switch. I don't think I will come back for any reason.