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@warpig 1815

Make him a librarian and he may never have been implanted with the Nails in the first place (Psykers and Nails being incompatible). The resulting sense of isolation (of not being a true World Eater) would be a contributing factor to why he stayed loyal. He would never really have felt welcomed by the Legion, so peer pressure would have been less significant for him.

I think while it's possible that some of the traitors became disillusioned with the corruption that crept into the Legions, Istvaan V was pretty much the Rubicon for all the Traitor legions involved. There is no coming back from that, no matter what change of heart they might have, the imperium will never forgive them. The importance of Brotherhood in the legions is also paramount, so even if you despise your brothers, to abandon them would make you an outcast, and that is something that they are genetically predetermined to be wary of. In "Prince of Crows" we see that the Nightlords have already become disillusioned with the Heresy already, but neither want, nor can rejoin the Loyalists.

For the record, it is stated in Betrayer that the Word Bearers purge wasn't like Istvaan 3. All of the WBs turned to Chaos, the purge was to wipe out those that Lorgar saw did not match his vision for humanity. This was mostly achieved at Calth, by putting the more extreme elements in the Vanguard and leaving them to die. Lorgar was too much of a soft soul to murder his own, so instead he let them die in unwinable battles, over the course of the 40 years or so that they learned of Chaos.

It's mentioned somewhere, in either Aurellian or Betrayer, in a conversation between Magnus and Lorgar if I remember correctly, that the Word Bearers did have to purge and that it was 'regrettable' .

Dark Creed goes into it as well, that it was to remove the Terran element from their ranks.

NB. Couldn't find it referenced in Betrayer, didn't have a thorough look, but I found the purging of the Word Bearers ranks mentioned in a conversation between Erebus and Argel Tal in the First Heretic, P471.

@ Pilau Rice - In Betrayer it has World Eater Libies who never recieved the nails as they burned out too quickly or simply exploded. A few remained who where shunned by their brothers and where able to watch the decline of the legion thanks to a clear head.
Not sure why they stayed loyal or were not sent down to Isstvan though?

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@ Pilau Rice - In Betrayer it has World Eater Libies who never recieved the nails as they burned out too quickly or simply exploded. A few remained who where shunned by their brothers and where able to watch the decline of the legion thanks to a clear head.
Not sure why they stayed loyal or were not sent down to Isstvan though?

I think you mean LeadLegion

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
For the record, it is stated in Betrayer that the Word Bearers purge wasn't like Istvaan 3. All of the WBs turned to Chaos, the purge was to wipe out those that Lorgar saw did not match his vision for humanity. This was mostly achieved at Calth, by putting the more extreme elements in the Vanguard and leaving them to die. Lorgar was too much of a soft soul to murder his own, so instead he let them die in unwinable battles, over the course of the 40 years or so that they learned of Chaos.

That was the 2nd purge. The 1st purge of the WB happened earlier to remove the loyalists. It was much more subtle than Ishtvaan.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@ Pilau Rice - In Betrayer it has World Eater Libies who never recieved the nails as they burned out too quickly or simply exploded. A few remained who where shunned by their brothers and where able to watch the decline of the legion thanks to a clear head.
Not sure why they stayed loyal or were not sent down to Isstvan though?

I think you mean LeadLegion

LeadLegion?

The HH book Betrayer by ADB

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Really though, who does like Lorgar

He's my favourite...



He's the prettiest of the primarchs.

Hmm, TG games says that it's "recently hinted" (implying it comes from a recent "canon" source) that the Silver Skulls are probably from an Iron Warriors loyalist fragment and are only listed as Ultramarines successors as a cover that Roboute gave them (If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if they come from Warsmith Dantioch's band, given that Dantioch was helping the Ultramarines in Unremembered Empire. Actually, come to think of it, Dantioch's iron mask is a Silver Skull, isn't it?)

It doesn't say what the source for that is, though (maybe a recent short story?). But if that's true, it does show that in at least one case, a primarch fabricated a lie so that a loyalist fragment of a traitor legion could continue serving the Imperium.

That would be odd, as there's really nothing about the Silver Skulls that suggests anything, anything at all, of having IW geneseed.

It's an interesting coincidence, nonetheless.

It would be, but a quick glance at the Lexi article on them seems to imply that they are a very-post-Heresy Founding, not getting any mention until M35ish.

Also, the silver skulls thing is easily explained in their tribal practices... just seems to me that the Skulls are too overtly based on other themes and elements to be an IW Secret-Successor, as they aren't a siege-oriented Chapter, are tight to the Codex Astartes, and are pretty open with giving the =I= tours of their apothecariums and such, so... I dunno. Just seems like an out-of-nowhere idea.

The fact that it seems out of no where ironically makes me think that editor really DID get it from an actual valid source, because I doubt they'd make something like that up (The Black Library author deciding to make it up on the other hand is more plausible. Although I thought the Silver Skulls were Sarah's adopted chapter now, yet she didn't have a hand in any Dantioch stories that I'm aware of. Maybe they collaborated anyways. Guess I'd need the actual source it comes from, if it does come from an actual source, to even begin to figure that one out.)

According to Lexi, it's true that canonwise, they only claim to be Ultramarine successors and fight alongside them as brothers, yet it's never been confirmed they're ultramarine successors. So that possiblity does exist. Still, without the actual source on the Iron Warriors thing, we can't say for certain. I guess I'll ask where it came from.

EDIT: While waiting for an answer, I hit up google for Silver Skulls + Iron Warriors. Hilariously the first page was someone on another forum speculating they were Iron Warriors because their demeanor in the novels as well as their motto ("We will prevail") seemed a lot more like something the Iron Warriors would have instead of the Ultramarines. Here's hoping I get an answer on that source.

EDIT 2: Other old old pages innocently use "Looks similar to the Iron Warriors pre-heresy badge" (without any honest thought put to them being Iron Warrior successors, whatsoever) to describe the Silver Skull's logo, and there are a hilarious amount of people saying "I'm trying to make a Silver Skulls army but am worried about them looking too much like Iron Warriors" (again without even beginning to consider they might be Iron Warrior successors, since the fluff always stated "Thought to be Ultramarines", no one ever gave it a second thought). I suppose it's possible the Black Library authors either planned this in advance or came to the same conclusion themselves and decided to throw it in. Er... assuming the implication comes from an actual valid source in the first place, of course.

EDIT 3: Well, some people at TG seem really convinced. Blood Ravens obviousness level of convinced. But I haven't seen anyone point out something for the Silver Skull Iron Warrior evidence as Blood Ravens obvious-ish as a Thousand Son spouting the Blood Raven's motto yet. Hrm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
and are pretty open with giving the =I= tours of their apothecariums and such, so... I dunno. Just seems like an out-of-nowhere idea.

As an aside, like I stated earlier, there are several chapters which, far as we know, freely give their geneseed up for evaluation yet their parent chapters still can't be determined. Makes one wonder how easy or hard it is to determine such a thing, though multiple references to "random-chapter's gene seed shows some signs of coming from whoever" have surfaced in the fluff, IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
It would be, but a quick glance at the Lexi article on them seems to imply that they are a very-post-Heresy Founding, not getting any mention until M35ish

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@ Pilau Rice - In Betrayer it has World Eater Libies who never recieved the nails as they burned out too quickly or simply exploded. A few remained who where shunned by their brothers and where able to watch the decline of the legion thanks to a clear head.
Not sure why they stayed loyal or were not sent down to Isstvan though?

I think you mean LeadLegion

LeadLegion?

The HH book Betrayer by ADB

Your comment about World Eater Libies was directed to me when I mentioned nothing about them, LeadLegion did.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
@ Pilau Rice - In Betrayer it has World Eater Libies who never recieved the nails as they burned out too quickly or simply exploded. A few remained who where shunned by their brothers and where able to watch the decline of the legion thanks to a clear head.
Not sure why they stayed loyal or were not sent down to Isstvan though?

I think you mean LeadLegion

LeadLegion?

The HH book Betrayer by ADB

Your comment about World Eater Libies was directed to me when I mentioned nothing about them, LeadLegion did.

Oops. Sorry don't know why I got it stuck in my head it was you.