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 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You shouldn't be building your list with any of those prior considerations. Pretend you don't know you're playing Fred. Bring that list.

Why should I not take part in the Meta-Game as we know it.

This is why I have started creating "Core Builds"
Example my Space Wolves:
Rune Priest
Wolf Scouts Pack
2 Grey Hunters Pack
1 Land Speeder Squadren
1 Long Fangs Pack

Fred Does the same thing for his Mariens:
Chaprer Master
Vanguard Vets
2 Tactical Squads [with Melta/Multi-Melta]
FA: None
2 Devistators [4x LC/4x HB]

Then we build our list from there, is usaly goes like this:
Fred: "I am taking my Purple Dragons Space Marines...I am going to try out a Strom Raven if you don't mind me borrowing yours and Some Sisters as Allies.
Anpu42: "Cool, do have a problem with me taking my Malicor?"
Fred: "Ok...sure why not."
Then we go and finish up our list.

Because what if you show up with your Fred list but end up playing me instead? A priori knowledge just leads to all kinds bad assessments of units. A unit is only very good if you would use it in a TAC list.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You shouldn't be building your list with any of those prior considerations. Pretend you don't know you're playing Fred. Bring that list.

Why should I not take part in the Meta-Game as we know it.

This is why I have started creating "Core Builds"
Example my Space Wolves:
Rune Priest
Wolf Scouts Pack
2 Grey Hunters Pack
1 Land Speeder Squadren
1 Long Fangs Pack

Fred Does the same thing for his Mariens:
Chaprer Master
Vanguard Vets
2 Tactical Squads [with Melta/Multi-Melta]
FA: None
2 Devistators [4x LC/4x HB]

Then we build our list from there, is usaly goes like this:
Fred: "I am taking my Purple Dragons Space Marines...I am going to try out a Strom Raven if you don't mind me borrowing yours and Some Sisters as Allies.
Anpu42: "Cool, do have a problem with me taking my Malicor?"
Fred: "Ok...sure why not."
Then we go and finish up our list.

Because what if you show up with your Fred list but end up playing me instead? A priori knowledge just leads to all kinds bad assessments of units. A unit is only very good if you would use it in a TAC list.

We play at my house and I know who is showing up

In my group its nothing but list tailoring, but that's fine by me. Not only do I not have a problem with it, but in this case I really don't see a way to avoid it. We're a small group and everyone has their habits and/or favorite units. We'd be fools not to try to counter things we know our opponents are going to field.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You shouldn't be building your list with any of those prior considerations. Pretend you don't know you're playing Fred. Bring that list.

Why should I not take part in the Meta-Game as we know it.

This is why I have started creating "Core Builds"
Example my Space Wolves:
Rune Priest
Wolf Scouts Pack
2 Grey Hunters Pack
1 Land Speeder Squadren
1 Long Fangs Pack

Fred Does the same thing for his Mariens:
Chaprer Master
Vanguard Vets
2 Tactical Squads [with Melta/Multi-Melta]
FA: None
2 Devistators [4x LC/4x HB]

Then we build our list from there, is usaly goes like this:
Fred: "I am taking my Purple Dragons Space Marines...I am going to try out a Strom Raven if you don't mind me borrowing yours and Some Sisters as Allies.
Anpu42: "Cool, do have a problem with me taking my Malicor?"
Fred: "Ok...sure why not."
Then we go and finish up our list.

Because what if you show up with your Fred list but end up playing me instead? A priori knowledge just leads to all kinds bad assessments of units. A unit is only very good if you would use it in a TAC list.

We play at my house and I know who is showing up

But what if you didn't? That's a very useful mental exercise that you are not participating in at all.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You shouldn't be building your list with any of those prior considerations. Pretend you don't know you're playing Fred. Bring that list.

Why should I not take part in the Meta-Game as we know it.

This is why I have started creating "Core Builds"
Example my Space Wolves:
Rune Priest
Wolf Scouts Pack
2 Grey Hunters Pack
1 Land Speeder Squadren
1 Long Fangs Pack

Fred Does the same thing for his Mariens:
Chaprer Master
Vanguard Vets
2 Tactical Squads [with Melta/Multi-Melta]
FA: None
2 Devistators [4x LC/4x HB]

Then we build our list from there, is usaly goes like this:
Fred: "I am taking my Purple Dragons Space Marines...I am going to try out a Strom Raven if you don't mind me borrowing yours and Some Sisters as Allies.
Anpu42: "Cool, do have a problem with me taking my Malicor?"
Fred: "Ok...sure why not."
Then we go and finish up our list.

Because what if you show up with your Fred list but end up playing me instead? A priori knowledge just leads to all kinds bad assessments of units. A unit is only very good if you would use it in a TAC list.

We play at my house and I know who is showing up

But what if you didn't? That's a very useful mental exercise that you are not participating in at all.

Do what I used to do, bring everthing and a half a dozen list.

In terms of bringing a list tailored to beat 'Fred's orks', don't see anything wrong with that. It'll teach Fred not to be predictable. Played a friend who I knew would run a battlewagon rush list that he found on the internet, so I researched and brought an anti-battlewagon list and popped them all by turn two. Again, his fault for not being creative.

My group tell each other what army we are each playing [as some of us have a few] and that's it. Part of the fun is turning up and never knowing what you will face. I took Inquisition last time and no-one expected me to take a landraider with loads of DCAs inside. Good times. Brought an anti-blob army when playing my mate's IG and he brought a FW mechanised force. Sad times.

Also, if we buy new models, we keep it quiet so that we can try them out the next game. Gives more of an incentive to add to our collections.

 Orblivion wrote:
In my group its nothing but list tailoring, but that's fine by me. Not only do I not have a problem with it, but in this case I really don't see a way to avoid it. We're a small group and everyone has their habits and/or favorite units. We'd be fools not to try to counter things we know our opponents are going to field.

I have the exact same scenario. I pretty much know, down to the model, what my friends have and like so there's really no way to get around list-tailoring. It makes no difference in our games, perhaps with the exception of one person who isn't a great player and doesn't have all the models from his army.

That one player would do well learning to tailor his list against each of your static lists for a few games just to get the hang of things.
I've no problem with being tailored for when I'm teaching, writing effective lists is a huge part of the game.
Obviously, when I'm getting smashed each game I'll mix things up a bit and he'll have to adapt.

Had a game against a relatively new guy, we both knew what army the other is playing but I decided to try an experimental list just for fun since he's trying out a fairly new army. I didn't even stop to think about the army he'd likely be fielding, just wrote up a list I thought had nice potential using some models I don't usually run.

Turned out my list was basically a hard counter to everything he brought...

To make matters worse he basically deployed each of his units directly in front of their hard counter unit on my side.

I basically tabled him in 3-4 turns. BY ACCIDENT.

Felt really bad about it too...

List tailoring is fine when it's within reason. a lsit tweeked to fight someone you always fight? that's just gonna happen. ((I'm not gonna bother even buying a unit if the only guy I play agaisnt feilds a lsit that basicly hard counters that unit.)

beyond that list tailoring is best done at the alrger level of "well I'm facing X army so I'm gonna try to kit out to better handle them" as this is realistic and by and large every army has a unit or two that "works just a bit differnt" so the odds of a hard counter are somewhat slim.

but if I know I'm gonna be fighting 'nids why NOT slide in some grav guns or something to address the MC issue. it's not like space marines wouldn't know who they where fighting in advance.

List tailoring is acceptable when stress testing an all comers list, ie. you have a new all comers list you want to try out and I will make a list designed to hit all the weak points I can see in the list. Other than that situation there shouldn't be any list tailoring to specific opponents. Some may consider taking into account what armies other players are using as list tailoring, I just consider that playing to the local meta.

I don't really understand people's objections here. What you are describing as list tailoring is how we play 40k at my FLGS. It is superior to nameless, faceless TAAC in every single way.

I have 13 different CSM army lists, each one optimized to fight other armies and their variants. I pull the right one out when I know what I am playing.

But I also have rivalries going back several years against a group of about 8 players. I write other lists specifically to counter their lists, and they do the same against me. We are constantly optimizing our troops / tactics against each other. To be honest, this is the part of the game I consider most fun.

For instance, one guy is a CPA, he pulls his models out the night before a game. I have his wife send me a picture on a cell phone so I know as much as I possibly can when I play him. OTOH, he keeps copies of my army lists and detailed notes about games. We both make an effort to keep the rivalry going in every way possible.

i have built archetype tailored lists. But never one designed for a specific person. the reason for this is because it actually makes sense fluffwise. A commander will take what tools they think they will need for the job without knowing the exact and speciffic loadout of the enemy army list. There will always be stuff to surprise you and they will have done the same.

Now, helping others learn and building my buddies army to play mine when they were too lazy, I tailored to face my army to help them out.
Doing it to someone else know what models they have and what their list is is just tacky. UNLESS, they are total jerks who are TFG. I havnt really had to fool with many of those and were usually able to put them in their place without having to resort to that.