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List Tailoring, How do you see it? And when is it Ok?

This has com up recently and I wanted you opinion:
To me there are three Levels of it as far as I am concerned.
Acceptable: “I know I will be fighting TauDar at some point this weekend, so I will set up for that.”
Acceptable: “Well I am the only one in my Group with 2 Riptides, I think I will give them a break.” [Without knowing what the others are bringing]
Unacceptable: “I know Fred is going to bring his Orks Friday, so out come my Anti-Fred’s Ork list.”

Tell me what you think?

I always construct lists for an unknown opponent. I have side boards for different point levels. I expect my opponent to do the same.

Unacceptable: "I have seen Fred's ork list and will now build my own list to directly counter everything he has."

Iffy: "Fred has come to the store with a 2000 point 'all comer's' list for orks, I will now select the SM list that I usually run against orks."

I generally know what army I'm going to be facing, or at least what army I'm most likely to be facing ahead of time and try to plan accordingly. One of my friends brings Space Marines sometimes with Tau allies, so I try and plan on dealing with lots of Bikes, Las-Predators and Firewarriors. Sometimes I guess wrong and my list ends up being at a disadvantage, but that's the risk you take when you try and predict what someone is going to do.

To me, list tailoring is ok so long as both people have equal opportunity to do so. For example, if I know my opponent is bringing Space Marines and he knows I'm bringing Chaos, we both have the same amount of information, so the game remains even. If however I were to bring my army down to the shop and he were to look at my list and then make his to counter mine, that is not acceptable, unless its agreed upon before hand.

Really, if you're concerned about whether or not you're tailoring, just play it safe and stick to TAC lists.

"I generally know what army I'm going to be facing, or at least what army I'm most likely to be facing ahead of time and try to plan accordingly"

This would make Tau or Eldar a bit more manageable, but I could be facing Tyranid horde for all I know.

 Anpu42 wrote:
List Tailoring, How do you see it? And when is it Ok?

This has com up recently and I wanted you opinion:
To me there are three Levels of it as far as I am concerned.
Acceptable: “I know I will be fighting TauDar at some point this weekend, so I will set up for that.”
Acceptable: “Well I am the only one in my Group with 2 Riptides, I think I will give them a break.” [Without knowing what the others are bringing]
Unacceptable: “I know Fred is going to bring his Orks Friday, so out come my Anti-Fred’s Ork list.”

Tell me what you think?

Honestly it seems like 'list tailoring' is sort of implied and intended with the current codex. GW design doesn't usually follow the 'All-Comers' tournament-list train of thought.

I'm mostly fine with it, barring the extreme jerko cases of course.

Hate to use the 'real life' comparison, but no battle would be fought in complete isolation, you would know who your opponent is. EG you're fighting in EoT, you would expect to fight chaos or demons, not Tau. So from that point of view tailoring your list for those opponents is fine. Looking at someones army and then writing your list is not.

Cheers

Andrew

If I'm bringing my army to the store I usually have a TAC list for various points levels. However, if my opponent wants to play at a certain point level I didn't plan for... and has a certain army... with a consistent playstyle...

I'm gonna pick some units over others.

Haha, this is funny stuff!

My group calls it meta-gaming and we always play at points levels that force me to use every model on the shelf!

I don't think I've ever played a 750 or a 500...

Typically every match starts with... "well I knew exactly what you'd be bringing so I planned accordingly!"

and ends with...

"You need to buy x models man..."

"Try proxying an Eldar list..."

But ya know, once I'm a million dollars deep in models, then I guess I can "meta-game" too!

"Let's play a game on Saturday, my Orks vs your Imperial Guard?" - Acceptable
"Can I see your list? *reads* ok, let me write mine." - Unacceptable
"I'm going to bring a bunch of lists tailored against my usual opponents and bring out each list when I battle each person" - Unacceptable
"I know my group plays with a lot of Flyers so I'll put an ADL with a Quad Gun in this list" - Not actually list tailoring, just metagaming.

The test for list tailoring: if, right before the game begins, your opponent reveals a list that is the exact opposite of the one you expected to face, would you feel unprepared and want to change your list again? If not, you're playing a TAC list that acknowledges the general metagame. If, on the other hand, you'd want to revise your list then you're TFG and list tailoring.

"TFG has been smashing new players left and right and insulting them. It's always the same list. Crush it and send him off crying so the new players won't stop playing." This is, of course, followed by offering to play the new players with friendly lists and explain what was done and why.

"My buddy asked me to take a hard counter to X list because he's prepping for a tourney." Also acceptable, as is been requested that you tailor.

Acceptable is when both sides have the same opportunity to tailor up front. I've been playing my main group of friends for a very long time and we always agree what armies both sides are bringing, this is fine as we want a good game not to crush the other under our boot heels, we've actually stopped games, adjusted lists and restarted when we have had a bad match up, no point playing a friendly game if its over by turn 2.

Its ok in a comp as well if you decide that taudar is going to be very common and you'll tailor for that, everybody can come to the same conclusion.

Wrong would be tailoring without giving the other person a chance to tailor.

Completely unacceptable would be looking at their list (or knowing what they always bring) and building a direct unit for unit counter list without giving them the chance to do the same.

 Anpu42 wrote:
List Tailoring, How do you see it? And when is it Ok?

This has com up recently and I wanted you opinion:
To me there are three Levels of it as far as I am concerned.
Acceptable: “I know I will be fighting TauDar at some point this weekend, so I will set up for that.”
Acceptable: “Well I am the only one in my Group with 2 Riptides, I think I will give them a break.” [Without knowing what the others are bringing]
Unacceptable: “I know Fred is going to bring his Orks Friday, so out come my Anti-Fred’s Ork list.”

Tell me what you think?

On your last point, provided Fred has brought his Anti-you list, or is aware that you will be doing something tailored to his orks and is happy with that, I see no problem.

List tailoring is only a problem when one player uses it to an individual advantage without their opponent having the opportunity to do the same, i.e. reading the other person's list during set-up and then altering your own list there and then (without agreement from your opponent) to counter specific units.

Depends on your opponent. Against Fred's orks, I'm going to use my general-purpose list. Against Joe's tournament taudar list, I'm going to tailor my list because I don't want to get tabled on turn 3.

IGOUGO list writing for each foc would be a funny exercise.
The collections on both sides would have to be deep but I could see it being fun.

Me and my buddies play once a week and the only list tailoring is what army are you playing and are you running fliers? so we know if we should bring the right amount of aa.

 Guitarquero wrote:
Me and my buddies play once a week and the only list tailoring is what army are you playing and are you running fliers? so we know if we should bring the right amount of aa.

This is a big one for us. We started to do this so we are all on the same page:

FOC Modification: This is an optional Rule, we really don’t enforce self it, but we encourage its use.
HQ: 1-2
Troop: 2-6
Elite: 1-3
Fast Attack: 1-3
Heavy Support: 1-3
Fortifications: 0-1
Lord of War: 0-1 [Let others know you are using this one in advance.]
Double FOC: We just ask that you let the other player you will be using it in advance.
Allies: We just ask that you let the other player you will be using them in advance.
Flyers: We just ask that you let the other player you will be using any in advance.

My second game ever was against a tailored list. I walked into my game store and asked for a game. Eldar player said sure, 1500 points. Asks to see my Ork army list and then grabs some paper and starts to write his up. Being a new player and new to the store I didn't want to say anything to rock the boat. He had a ton of models but asked to proxy a few things. So basically I was tabled in like 3 turns. Thankfully a few other players came up to me after the game and explained that people do not do it that way normally and he is "that guy" for this store.

Now I am very vocal about it. Everyone that has been playing this game for even a little while has standard lists at different point levels all ready made. Making one after looking at someones list is totally unacceptable to me now.

I think it's acceptable to ask what army a person plays (SM, Guard .etc.). In such a way you can ensure you don't bring something that's completely useless (e.g. Mortars against Marines, melta vs Orks), but also means that people don't take that Demolisher just to deal with that 5 man Paladin squad when it DS down.

For a pick up game i have several TAC lists prepared at different points values, with different themes, and i switch them around on a game by game basis.

For a pre-arranged game i will tailor my list to whatever my opponent is bringing, and also to that opponents playstyle, with the tacit understanding that my opponent will do the same. If its a newish player who has arranged a game i will simply use a TAC list and let him tailor to my army, and depending on how long he has been playing, i may even let him look at my list in advance.

But generally tailoring is best done to an opponents codex, rather than his collection, because if your opponent is bringing all he has, tailoring to that collection can be incredibly unfair i've done it a couple of times to TFG actually, but i have no moral qualms about that whatsoever

Acceptable: “I know I will be fighting TauDar at some point this weekend, so I will set up for that.”
Acceptable: “Well I am the only one in my Group with 2 Riptides, I think I will give them a break.” [Without knowing what the others are bringing]
Unacceptable: “I know Fred is going to bring his Orks Friday, so out come my Anti-Fred’s Ork list.”

LOL looks like playing eldar or tau means you stop being human and become just that wierd army X psychological construct .

Tailoring is bad because in the end it forces people out of the hobby . Some armies can tailor better then others , some people have more cash then others . If someone has enough cash to have 2k+points of army and you never buy more then 1500pts like everyone else , the dude with the 2k+pts will always have the upper edge . He will probably give you this awesome story of how he wants to check his new poison build against your MC heavy list , but you will never see him test the same build against a mecha list .

But I do know that not everyone plays it that way . When I went to UK visting my aunt she took me to warhammer world , there an opponent 3 times my age asked me what I have with me and then created a 3 whirlwind 6 minimax with hvy bolters 3 sternguard with hvy bolters list against my blob guard . He even asked me If I had fun playing after it all .

Makumba wrote:

Acceptable: “I know I will be fighting TauDar at some point this weekend, so I will set up for that.”
Acceptable: “Well I am the only one in my Group with 2 Riptides, I think I will give them a break.” [Without knowing what the others are bringing]
Unacceptable: “I know Fred is going to bring his Orks Friday, so out come my Anti-Fred’s Ork list.”

LOL looks like playing eldar or tau means you stop being human and become just that wierd army X psychological construct .

Tailoring is bad because in the end it forces people out of the hobby . Some armies can tailor better then others , some people have more cash then others . If someone has enough cash to have 2k+points of army and you never buy more then 1500pts like everyone else , the dude with the 2k+pts will always have the upper edge . He will probably give you this awesome story of how he wants to check his new poison build against your MC heavy list , but you will never see him test the same build against a mecha list .

But I do know that not everyone plays it that way . When I went to UK visting my aunt she took me to warhammer world , there an opponent 3 times my age asked me what I have with me and then created a 3 whirlwind 6 minimax with hvy bolters 3 sternguard with hvy bolters list against my blob guard . He even asked me If I had fun playing after it all .

I could have said:

Acceptable: “I know I will be fighting Space Wolves at some point this weekend, so I will set up for that.”
Acceptable: “Well I am the only one in my Group with 3 Land Raiders, I think I will give them a break.” [Without knowing what the others are bringing]
Unacceptable: “I know Fred is going to bring his Necons Friday, so out come my Anti-Fred’s Necron list.”

Those were just the three armies that came to mind.

Acceptable: "Damn Fred's Heldrake. Here's my anti heldrake list"

This is the other end of List Tailoring: For play balance.

Fred has three Armies
1] Orks: Made up mostly of cast off from Black-Reach and what someone gave him. Mostly it’s Boyz, Killer Cans and Choppers. He is also starting to Proxy a pair Dakka-Jets.
2] Tyranids: A few MC's, but mostly Gaunts, Stealers and Warriors.
3] Space Marines: This list has lots of Melta and Las-Cannons.

I have my groups only Land Raiders, one of each and a Storm Raven. I also know I am a better player than Fred.

I know I am going to be playing Fred
1] Orks: Well for me to take my 3 Land Raiders will dominate him completely, but his Dakka Jets…I will use the Storm Raven.
2] Nids: He has no Anti-Armor and No Anti-Air…I leave the Land Raider and Strom Raven at home. This will change once he gets his hands on a Crone or Fly-Rant
3] Marines: I don’t need to hold back so I may bring all three Land Raiders and the Storm Raven.

You shouldn't be building your list with any of those prior considerations. Pretend you don't know you're playing Fred. Bring that list.

Martel732 wrote:
You shouldn't be building your list with any of those prior considerations. Pretend you don't know you're playing Fred. Bring that list.

Why should I not take part in the Meta-Game as we know it.

This is why I have started creating "Core Builds"
Example my Space Wolves:
Rune Priest
Wolf Scouts Pack
2 Grey Hunters Pack
1 Land Speeder Squadren
1 Long Fangs Pack

Fred Does the same thing for his Mariens:
Chaprer Master
Vanguard Vets
2 Tactical Squads [with Melta/Multi-Melta]
FA: None
2 Devistators [4x LC/4x HB]

Then we build our list from there, is usaly goes like this:
Fred: "I am taking my Purple Dragons Space Marines...I am going to try out a Strom Raven if you don't mind me borrowing yours and Some Sisters as Allies.
Anpu42: "Cool, do have a problem with me taking my Malicor?"
Fred: "Ok...sure why not."
Then we go and finish up our list.

But if you take his SR then he Fred wouldn't have 1500pts and why would he have sisters ?

Makumba wrote:
But if you take his SR then he Fred wouldn't have 1500pts and why would he have sisters ?

We normaly play 2k

Ok so he has 1850 now and you have 2000 . Same thing .