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If a Swooping FMC is forced to fall back, what happens if it rolls less than 12" distance?

The movement restrictions say it must move at least 12" and can move up to 24" while Swooping.

If an Infantry unit is force to fall back what happens if it rolls more than 6 " distance?

Looking at the rule, I would say that a FMC whether through design (unlikely) or oversight (more than likely) does not fall back when swooping.

Fragile wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sidebar about FMCs who are falling back and hit the board edge. They do not enter Ongoing Reserves. They are destroyed.

BRB p.30
If any model from a unit that is falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle.

p.49
It's quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace- it then enters Ongoing Reserves (see page 125)

Unless I'm missing something, it must come into contact with a board edge before it can leave it, if moving normally. If falling back, the moment it comes into contact with the board edge, it dies. Have I missed something?

The underlined part causes the question. How does a FMC leave the board edge if it does not do so deliberately? What can force the FMC to leave against its will? Whatever caused it to leave against its will causes it to go into Ongoing Reserves. Which conflicts with the fall back rule. So which is more specific?

Look at the first rule again, though.

In order to enter ongoing reserves, it must first move off the table. It can't move off the table until it moves beyond the board edge, which it is destroyed immediately upon reaching. It can't possibly get off the board, because it can't get past the board edge.

Honestly, even if you simultaneously get destroyed and go into reserve - you're still destroyed.

Taking into consideration the rules for FMC swooping say it continues in the direction it is facing after movement, from then on during the turn is just an example of how the rules fails to cater for a Swooping FMC and falling back directly, in the case of the exceptions to ‘moving like jump’ contains items where the FMC cannot change direction to be able to comply with the fall back move.

If in a game we did play it as falling back, If someone questioned the fact the unit isn't destroyed I'd ask them to look up the fall back distance for a Swooping FMC, which is N/A.

Terrify does not remove anything. It states that the unit does not "benefit" from Fearless. As has been pointed out, Synapse has a separate rule that allows any unit with at least one model in Synapse range to automatically regroup if it is range at the start of its move. Therefore, in regards to Fall Back, Terrify has no effect on units in Synapse range. If they fail the test, they auto-regroup before they even move due to the Synapse special rule.

FMC's move as Jump Monstrous Creatures. They Fall Back 3d6" directly towards their table edge. The rules for FMC say that it can pivot 90 degrees and thereafter must move in a straight line. It is a direct contradiction. The resolution is most reasonably in favor of the Fall Back taking precedence since the Fall Back rule states "instead of moving normally". Contact with the table edge occurs before moving off the table. Destroyed units in Reserve are still Destroyed, therefore FMC Falling back are destroyed when they hit the table edge.

Angelic wrote:
Terrify does not remove anything. It states that the unit does not "benefit" from Fearless. As has been pointed out, Synapse has a separate rule that allows any unit with at least one model in Synapse range to automatically regroup if it is range at the start of its move. Therefore, in regards to Fall Back, Terrify has no effect on units in Synapse range. If they fail the test, they auto-regroup before they even move due to the Synapse special rule.

Terrify will cause units to fall back if they fail their morale test. Synapse grants Fearless, which they would not benefit from

FMC's move as Jump Monstrous Creatures. They Fall Back 3d6" directly towards their table edge. The rules for FMC say that it can pivot 90 degrees and thereafter must move in a straight line. It is a direct contradiction. The resolution is most reasonably in favor of the Fall Back taking precedence since the Fall Back rule states "instead of moving normally". Contact with the table edge occurs before moving off the table. Destroyed units in Reserve are still Destroyed, therefore FMC Falling back are destroyed when they hit the table edge.

Gliding FMCs would fall back 3d6, Swooping would not

Synapse does three things:
Negate IB.
Grant Fearless.
Cause units to automatically regroup.

So, if you cast Terrify on a hive tyrant, it would fall back and then auto-regroup.

Whats the exact wording of the synapse rule? From what I am hearing it sounds like if the moral test is failed the unit still falls back. If the unit was in range of a synapse creature before its fall back move it automatically regroups after its fall back move, not unlike how ATSKNF automatically regroups.


Oh, and on meeting the table edge while falling back and swooping. They unit is destroyed. The swooping rules do say the unit goes into ongoing reserves if it leaves the board regardless of that movement being deliberate or not, but falling back is not the only kind of forced movement. Unlike other kinds of forced movement falling back has a specific thing that causes the model to die if it meets the board edge and swooping does not make an exception to that specific thing.

Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

Angelic wrote:
Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is with a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

Which applies in the movement Phase, it has to fall back first, before it can regroup. And order of event thing.

barnowl wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is with a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

Which applies in the movement Phase, it has to fall back first, before it can regroup. And order of event thing.

Falling Back is a status. A model is Falling Back as soon as it fails the Morale check, whether it makes the Fall Back move or not, in fact, Synapse is prior to movement. All that is required for Synapse is that the model is Falling Back. And Regroup does not just apply in the Movement Phase, i.e. assaulting a unit that is already falling back.

If the Model is terrified within synapse range it would not fall back as synapse states it regroups before falling back so this would happen:

1- Terrified
2- Check to see if in synapse range
3- Before the unit moves it automatically regroups, if in synapse it regroups before moving.
4- If not in synapse range it falls back x distance
5- IF x distance takes it into synapse range it regroups.
6- IF x distance does not take it into synapse range it is falling back at the start of the next turn.

So you did terrify the unit, but before the unit moves it automatically regroups. Therefore it has been terrified and successfully completed the RAW part of synapse.

You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

 DJGietzen wrote:
You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

I stated the applicable rule for Synapse, which mentions absolutely nothing about needing a test. What rules can you cite that support anything else you said?

Angelic wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

I stated the applicable rule for Synapse, which mentions absolutely nothing about needing a test. What rules can you cite that support anything else you said?

Show permission to regroup at any other time than what the BRB says. Synapse specifically states it regroups before the unit moves. This rule would apply if Fearless were somehow gone, but it only applies in the movement phase. Fearless would let the unit auto pass any other checks that were required at other times, such as assault.

So a fallback move isn't before the unit moves?

Fragile wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

I stated the applicable rule for Synapse, which mentions absolutely nothing about needing a test. What rules can you cite that support anything else you said?

Show permission to regroup at any other time than what the BRB says. Synapse specifically states it regroups before the unit moves. This rule would apply if Fearless were somehow gone, but it only applies in the movement phase. Fearless would let the unit auto pass any other checks that were required at other times, such as assault.

Wouldn't that permission be in the Synapse rule, since it says "before the unitmoves..." This appears to be a case of codex trumps rulebook.

It checks if the unit is within the synapse range of a synapse creature before it moves, but the synapse rule doesn't say the unit regroups before it moves, it oly states the unit regroups. We don't have permission to regroup in our opponent's turn.

Yes you do, as the rule for synapse states it regroups before it moves.

Fallback is a move
Synapse states you regroup before moving
If you fail to regroup, and thus move, you bra the synapse rule.

Show permission to break this rule. Page and para.

No.......

If that were true marines would never fallback either since they auto regroup.



You cant seriously think that.



The unit falls back, then before its NEXT move, regroups. Thats how it works. You cannot auto regroup in the same phase you fell back.


Anyway, there is no RAW on how a FMC falls back. The only 2 ways to play it is that they are immune to falling back, or that they drop into glide mode and fall back 3d6 like a Jump Infantry does.

So again, no rules argument?

You regroup before moving. The fall back move is a move. Page and para that states why not.

so your ignoring the fact that marines auto-regroup with AtsKNF but still fall back?

Eihnlazer wrote:
Anyway, there is no RAW on how a FMC falls back.

Yes there is, FMC move like a Jump MCs so would fall back the same way (as falling back is considered movement), the question is whether the pivot restriction of a Swooping FMC remains in place during a fall back move (imo, yes, as it is the more specific rule).


As for Synapse and regrouping, the way I read it is when you would normally roll for regrouping (just before the unit moves) the unit automatically regroups if it is Synapse range.

Eihnlazer wrote:
so your ignoring the fact that marines auto-regroup with AtsKNF but still fall back?

To be fair, Synapse and ATSKNF are different rules with different wording.

Eihnlazer wrote:
so your ignoring the fact that marines auto-regroup with AtsKNF but still fall back?

You should re-read ATSKNF before comparing it to Synapse. Your comparison is flawed.

they are different, but in this situation they are effecting the same thing.

Models with ATSKNF auto regroup all the time, from anything.

Models in Synapse auto regroup as soon as they are in synapse.

I dont see how the stronger rule (ATSKNF) would allow models to make a fall back move (which we KNOW they do) while synapse would somehow make them immune to falling back.


If you fail your ldrship roll and are forced to fall back, you MUST fall back, unless you are immune to such things. Since terrify removes the fearless special rule, the hive tyrant is no longer immune to falling back. Synapse does not stop the fall back move, it mearly lets them regroup instantly as soon as it is done.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Models with ATSKNF auto regroup all the time, from anything.

False. As I said, re-read the rule.

Models in Synapse auto regroup as soon as they are in synapse.

Correct.

I dont see how the stronger rule (ATSKNF) would allow models to make a fall back move (which we KNOW they do) while synapse would somehow make them immune to falling back.

Re-read ATSKNF and then look at when Regroup tests are made. Your understanding of the rules is flawed and therefore your comparison and conclusions is flawed.

Even if im not wording the rule correctly, the main point is still the same.