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Eihnlazer wrote:
Even if im not wording the rule correctly, the main point is still the same.

Unfortunatly it really isn't.
ATSKNF only allows them to re-group when you would roll to re-group at the start of the turn. Not at any point, unlike Synapse.

Automatically passing Regrouping tests isn't the same as automatically regrouping , regrouping test only ever happen a your own movement phase or if your falling back unit gets charged.

So forget i ever mentioned ATSKNF.

What i stated about the MC getting terrified still stands.

If you fail your check, you must fall back. Even if you instantly regroup, you still have to make the fall back move since that happens instantly after you fail your test.

And if you're falling back, you get to regroup before you move.
How can something happen before something else that states it happens beforehand?

Edit : typo, wrote if instead of iT

Eihnlazer wrote:
What i stated about the MC getting terrified still stands.

If you fail your check, you must fall back. Even if you instantly regroup, you still have to make the fall back move since that happens instantly after you fail your test.

Citation required.
Is the fallback a move?
Why are you requiring a rule to be broken?

This entire argument comes down to semantics over "move". "Move" is generally referred to movement phase moves, whereas Fall Back moves are specifically "Fall Back moves". Since units regroup in the Movement phase, that is where this "move" would be applied. However, since "move" is such a generic term, those are arguing that it applies when a unit changes location from point A to point B.

Eihnlazer wrote:
So forget i ever mentioned ATSKNF.

What i stated about the MC getting terrified still stands.

If you fail your check, you must fall back. Even if you instantly regroup, you still have to make the fall back move since that happens instantly after you fail your test.

Page and para allowing you to ignore synapse. For the second time of asking

Before you MOVE you regroup. Why are you breaking this rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
This entire argument comes down to semantics over "move". "Move" is generally referred to movement phase moves, whereas Fall Back moves are specifically "Fall Back moves". Since units regroup in the Movement phase, that is where this "move" would be applied. However, since "move" is such a generic term, those are arguing that it applies when a unit changes location from point A to point B.

Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

So model fails, and runs 2D6/3D6" depending on it's type toward it's table edge. The following turn it now checks to regroup.

So no matter what if you fail your going to make 1 fall back move before you can even attempt to regroup or auto regroup. Unless of course your fearless.

Honestly shouldn't have to site rules for this. The book is perfectly clear what happens when a unit that is not fearless fails a moral check. It falls back. It's also perfectly clear when a unit tests to regroup. To quote pg 31 "A unit that is falling back must attempt to regroup by taking a regroup test in their movement PHASE just before they move."

Falling back follows all rules for movement. It is not however their MOVEMENT PHASE. So they cannot test to regroup until then.

On topic of the FMC and falling back. If a 90 degree pivot will get it heading straight towards your table edge then you can keep swooping.
Since Glide/Swoop is "optional" and the rules for falling back are not. Can/Can't doesn't apply.

If the model Can't get pointed directly at it's table edge with a 90 degree pivot then it MUST use glide mode in order to meet the fall back requirements.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

In reference to your argument however, pg 30 clearly spells out that you move 2d6 directly towards the table edge.

Wagguy80 wrote:
When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

Synapse doesn't auto-pass regroup tests. Synapse forces you to regroup before you move.

Honestly shouldn't have to site rules for this. The book is perfectly clear what happens when a unit that is not fearless fails a moral check. It falls back. It's also perfectly clear when a unit tests to regroup. To quote pg 31 "A unit that is falling back must attempt to regroup by taking a regroup test in their movement PHASE just before they move."

Completely irrelevant when you look at the rules for Synapse - you know, the rule being discussed.

If the model Can't get pointed directly at it's table edge with a 90 degree pivot then it MUST use glide mode in order to meet the fall back requirements.

I've declared Swooping when I moved. I must use this movement type until the start of my next turn.
Find permission to change movement types before my next turn. You've asserted it exists. - cite it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

In reference to your argument however, pg 30 clearly spells out that you move 2d6 directly towards the table edge.

Does impassable terrain block this special move that's not a move?

That's where your argument falls apart. Either all moves are moves or anything outside the movement phase needs to discuss impassable terrain and other potential obstacles.

There are 3 times, and 3 times only, that you can select/change a Flight Mode (Swooping / Gliding).
Falling back is not one of them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

Synapse doesn't auto-pass regroup tests. Synapse forces you to regroup before you move.

Honestly shouldn't have to site rules for this. The book is perfectly clear what happens when a unit that is not fearless fails a moral check. It falls back. It's also perfectly clear when a unit tests to regroup. To quote pg 31 "A unit that is falling back must attempt to regroup by taking a regroup test in their movement PHASE just before they move."

Completely irrelevant when you look at the rules for Synapse - you know, the rule being discussed.

If the model Can't get pointed directly at it's table edge with a 90 degree pivot then it MUST use glide mode in order to meet the fall back requirements.

I've declared Swooping when I moved. I must use this movement type until the start of my next turn.
Find permission to change movement types before my next turn. You've asserted it exists. - cite it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

Trapped.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

In reference to your argument however, pg 30 clearly spells out that you move 2d6 directly towards the table edge.

Does impassable terrain block this special move that's not a move?

That's where your argument falls apart. Either all moves are moves or anything outside the movement phase needs to discuss impassable terrain and other potential obstacles.

Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

Pg 49 - SWOOPING - If a Flying Monstrous creature is swooping it moves exactly like jump infantry with the following exceptions...

Blah blah blah exceptions don't matter since it has no special rules about how it behaves when falling back. There is not a unit on the table given various situations where their fall back overrides their normal movement abilities.

Otherwise if it already turned once it can't turn again. Thus it would go 3D6" straight ahead, but it would go at least 12" because it has too.

There is no real rulebook perfect solution to this. The only thing you can do is come up with options which follow the rules as close as possible and then talk it over with your opponent.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You've asserted that "move" is not always "move". Since a fallback move is not always a move, and the Impassable terrain rules that both you and I quoted forbid you from "cross[ing] or mov[ing] into or through" it, the restriction does not apply to fallback moves.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

You're the one saying fallback moves are not moves. You've failed to prove it. Utterly.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You've asserted that "move" is not always "move". Since a fallback move is not always a move, and the Impassable terrain rules that both you and I quoted forbid you from "cross[ing] or mov[ing] into or through" it, the restriction does not apply to fallback moves.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

You're the one saying fallback moves are not moves. You've failed to prove it. Utterly.

The only failure here is that you didnt read the rules before asking for them. Fall Back and Impassable terrain cover the issues that you claim only Movement does. Next question?

So while performing this non move move, does coherency apply?

Fall back move is a move. Synapse covers any move, by virtue of not restricting it

You are restricting the type of move synapse covers. Any rules citation for that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So while performing this non move move, does coherency apply?

Covered in the rule, read pg 30.

Fall back move is a move. Synapse covers any move, by virtue of not restricting it

You are restricting the type of move synapse covers. Any rules citation for that?

Again I have said that RAW it is a move because the term is Fall Back move. But it is semantics.

PrinceRaven wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Anyway, there is no RAW on how a FMC falls back.

Yes there is, FMC move like a Jump MCs so would fall back the same way (as falling back is considered movement), the question is whether the pivot restriction of a Swooping FMC remains in place during a fall back move (imo, yes, as it is the more specific rule).


As for Synapse and regrouping, the way I read it is when you would normally roll for regrouping (just before the unit moves) the unit automatically regroups if it is Synapse range.

As fallback moves do not specify any necessary facing I see no problem moving the FMC backwards.

Fragile wrote:This entire argument comes down to semantics over "move". "Move" is generally referred to movement phase moves, whereas Fall Back moves are specifically "Fall Back moves". Since units regroup in the Movement phase, that is where this "move" would be applied. However, since "move" is such a generic term, those are arguing that it applies when a unit changes location from point A to point B.

A fallback move is a move no matter how you try to get around it.

Wagguy80 wrote:When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

..and if the rule said they automatically pass regroup tests you'd be correct. You'd have to wait until they could take the test. That's not what it says though.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

A rule written in error is still a rule and and interpretation cannot be called incorrect simply because GW sometimes makes mistakes. If you are arguing for RAW intentions are not a factor. If you are arguing RAI then show some evidence of this. Please don't state it as a mistake without support simply to cast doubt though, it is unproductive.

Fragile wrote:
Move does not always mean any move.

Actually without further specification, it does.

Wagguy80 wrote:Pg 49 - SWOOPING - If a Flying Monstrous creature is swooping it moves exactly like jump infantry with the following exceptions...

Blah blah blah exceptions don't matter since it has no special rules about how it behaves when falling back. There is not a unit on the table given various situations where their fall back overrides their normal movement abilities.

Otherwise if it already turned once it can't turn again. Thus it would go 3D6" straight ahead, but it would go at least 12" because it has too.

There is no real rulebook perfect solution to this. The only thing you can do is come up with options which follow the rules as close as possible and then talk it over with your opponent.

Marines don't normally move 2d6 inches. It seems to me fallback moves do give there own permissions. You are permitted and required to move the FMC 3d6 inches toward you board edge and I don't see any indication this move takes the models facing into consideration.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You've asserted that "move" is not always "move". Since a fallback move is not always a move, and the Impassable terrain rules that both you and I quoted forbid you from "cross[ing] or mov[ing] into or through" it, the restriction does not apply to fallback moves.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

You're the one saying fallback moves are not moves. You've failed to prove it. Utterly.

The only failure here is that you didnt read the rules before asking for them. Fall Back and Impassable terrain cover the issues that you claim only Movement does. Next question?

No, they don't.
You've said a fallback move isn't a move. This means that impassable terrain does not forbid you falling back through it. This means that impassable terrain does not block your fallback and trapped does not apply.

I read the rules - I even quoted them. Your statements have no basis in fact. Impassable terrain only forbids moving through it. If a fallback is not a move, you can move through it.

The wording for.synapse says move,.not movement phase, begininv of movement phase, or before moving any models during your movement phase.

Prior to the 6th edition codec many rules exist which require you to perform.or may select something happens during a specific part of the games phases, like movement or start of turn.

We do not see that wording here for synapse, simply because the rule for synapse is in regards to anytime the model would move in any phase or part of the game. If it were meant to be restricted to the controlling players movement phase only there would be some kind of language stating that, and there is not.

Additionally we.see that if synapse were meant to just grant fearless it would not have the additional wording that it does. This rai shows.that it is meant thY synapse is meant to be even better than being fearless and want models in synapse range to be truly intractavle, otherwise they would have just left it at granting fearless.

RAW you cannot make a unit in synapse range fallback by terrify

Fragile - so in a discussion about rules, it is a rule? It isnt "semantics" - it is using the term "move", which is well defined within 40k, and claimiung that "fall back moves" are not moves, with no support.

Please mark as HYWPI it in future, and in the other thread remove the scare quotes around "interpretation" - there is no interpretation involved, just direct reading.

I would just say the whole "no I don't fall back I regroup before I fall back" thing is pretty silly.

Units that are not falling back don't NEED to regroup. You're saying you regroup before you fall back when in fact you wouldn't need to regroup because you haven't fallen back yet.

The regroup before they move is referring to the start of the turn, wherein normally you check for regrouping before you move your unit - if you come into synapse range before that happens, you automatically regroup before having to move.

It's pretty clear what they meant.

Otherwise, you're telling me that if I cast terrify and you fail the morale test, the result is the monster just consolidates 3" and that's it? Sorry. Fails the stupidity test.

It's obvious what it means. Ignore the silly synapse broadened interpretation and get back to "how does it fall back" please.

It probably moves 3d6", but I'm more concerned with what direction it faces. If it has to turn and face the board edge, that's pretty crippling as it probably means next turn it's useless as it can't fly much (in fact it would just have to go into gliding mode and consolidate when it regroups).

GW really muddled things up with the idea of "regroup as you fall back". That's a fluff thing. Should just have said automatically passes tests to regroup.

Falling Back is a status, which includes making a fallback move. They are not the same thing.

No, it does not fail the stupidity test, it uses the exact rules as written.

I note you have no rules argument, please mark your post as "HYWPI" as per the forum tenets

Spellbound has it correct though.

You cannot regroup if you have not fallen back.

The exact wording is regroup before you move, but since you cannot regroup until you fall back at least once, how does that break synapse rule?

It's extremely obvious the intent is to let you regroup on your turn before you move.

That is my final thoughts on the matter.

There's really no "falling back is a status" basis for argument. There aren't many "statuses" in the game, that's your construct.

If you haven't fallen back, there's no need to regroup. There is no regrouping before you fall back. You're literally trying to say that if you fail a check due to terrify all it does is give you 3" bonus movement as you "regrouped" but didn't run first. You call it rules as written, I say it doesn't pass the stupid test. As in "huh. By an overly literal twisting of the rules, you might be technically correct. But I'm afraid that's stupid".

Reminds me of the "terminators aren't wearing terminator armor" rules debate of ages past.

 Spellbound wrote:
There's really no "falling back is a status" basis for argument. There aren't many "statuses" in the game, that's your construct.

If you haven't fallen back, there's no need to regroup. There is no regrouping before you fall back. You're literally trying to say that if you fail a check due to terrify all it does is give you 3" bonus movement as you "regrouped" but didn't run first. You call it rules as written, I say it doesn't pass the stupid test. As in "huh. By an overly literal twisting of the rules, you might be technically correct. But I'm afraid that's stupid".

Reminds me of the "terminators aren't wearing terminator armor" rules debate of ages past.

If it's not a status, there is no way to check to see if a unit is falling back in future turns to either continue falling back or to make your regroup.

 Spellbound wrote:
There's really no "falling back is a status" basis for argument.

It may not be called a "status" but it is an accurate term to describe a unit that is "falling back".
Falling back is more than just a move. It has many effects on the unit.
For example, it effects:
How the unit fires,
How the unit is effected by further moral checks,
How the unit responds to being assaulted.

So a fall back "status" is an accurate way to describe it. It's a much easier way of describing the full effects of a Falling Back.

But you are not falling back until you are falling back.

At the VERY least we could say that the two effects (being falling back, by falling back, so that you regroup because you are falling back) are occurring simultaneously, in which case the current player turn's player decides the order - so I would naturally say that you resolve the falling back before your synapse takes effect and makes you regroup.

Regardless I would still say you don't regroup until the start of your turn - synapse doesn't really change that.