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There is no way a multi-wound T3 model that can't score will ever be good. It's like trying to find a use for CSM possessed. You just need to admit they're crap and move on.

herpguy wrote:
There is no way a multi-wound T3 model that can't score will ever be good. It's like trying to find a use for CSM possessed. You just need to admit they're crap and move on.

Well, 3 can fearlessly hold a comms relay out of LoS.

That's 9 out of LoS 4+/2+ with a venom in the bastion T3 wounds that can't be assaulted and reroll reserves.

Admit it, you just got proven wrong.

(^_^)

herpguy wrote:
There is no way a multi-wound T3 model that can't score will ever be good. It's like trying to find a use for CSM possessed. You just need to admit they're crap and move on.

Oh they are crap. The issue is that the new codex made a lot of things crap. So now it is just finding the right piece of crap for the job.

A lot of our units are T3 ld6 with tissue paper armor and AP5 or worse. The had problems with synapse before, but now out of synapse you can not count on Gargoyles, Hormaguants or Termigaunts to actually do anything but die or run away.

You also can no longer DS Hormigaunts or termigaunts. If you chose to DS gargoyles you need to hope that your in synapse or that they don't get hit by anything.

I see a lot of people who are acting like they know how Nids play now who don't even use the army. Some have not even watched a bunch of battle reports.

Yes you can win some games with them, but against a serious competitive player they can dismantle your army in 3 turns by killing 4-6 models.

I don't want to say 'this unit is better than that unit' etc and I don't own the new nid dex. But how in the world can rippers be costed so highly when scarabs in the cron dex are fearless, have no IB tests and just 3 bases decimate even a landraider (3 bases take down a moving landraider to av10 all round on average)? Are you not annoyed by the difference? Or am I missing something not owning the dex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And scarabs cost 15pts...

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't want to say 'this unit is better than that unit' etc and I don't own the new nid dex. But how in the world can rippers be costed so highly when scarabs in the cron dex are fearless, have no IB tests and just 3 bases decimate even a landraider (3 bases take down a moving landraider to av10 all round on average)? Are you not annoyed by the difference? Or am I missing something not owning the dex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And scarabs cost 15pts...

Oh I am annoyed, but being annoyed doesn't build lists. Not going to stop playing my Nids (might play my DA more often though). Trying to move past the WTF and seeing what I can make for the hyper competitive environment I play in. Sometimes that includes playing psychological games or bring in units that people are not sure how to handle because they never had to fight them before.

I have actually seen Toxi-Rippers slaughter a riptide in one game. No one expected that. Running the math it isn't even that hard to do.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't want to say 'this unit is better than that unit' etc and I don't own the new nid dex. But how in the world can rippers be costed so highly when scarabs in the cron dex are fearless, have no IB tests and just 3 bases decimate even a landraider (3 bases take down a moving landraider to av10 all round on average)? Are you not annoyed by the difference? Or am I missing something not owning the dex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And scarabs cost 15pts...

Annoyed does not even begin to cover it. But as Gloomfang said, if your going to play nid's get over it and figure out what works. I play synapse heavy lists and six synapse units are not enough at 2000 points any more. I used to only have to run 4 and could get a way with 3 not anymore. So a fearless tarpit unit that is not slowed by terrain is a really useful thing to have even if it does suck compared to scarabs. Would have been nice if they had been given fleshbane.

barnowl wrote:
I play synapse heavy lists and six synapse units are not enough at 2000 points any more

What are you playing as synapse...in my last few games I've felt like I was way overcompensating for my bugs...synapse out the wazoo.

I use rippers because I run a synapse light list . I use 1 brood Shrikes, 1 brood warriors and a Prime (and sometimes not even the Prime). The warriors are my backfield scoring and they babysit my biovores. The entire rest of my list infiltrates, Deepstrikes or outflanks. I figured that way I only ever have to deal with one turn of shooting (if that).

Stealers are Ld10 and have no IB, lictors have a high Ld, Raveners are generally in combat and they almost never lose a combat.

And Rippers. Because they don't care about synapse that much.

It can get messy if my synapse shows up late to the party, but other than that it works well. Debating trading in my Prime for a Firestorm Redoubt (and the fact that they are close in price should let you see how expensive Primes can be).

 ductvader wrote:

herpguy wrote:
There is no way a multi-wound T3 model that can't score will ever be good. It's like trying to find a use for CSM possessed. You just need to admit they're crap and move on.

Well, 3 can fearlessly hold a comms relay out of LoS.

That's 9 out of LoS 4+/2+ with a venom in the bastion T3 wounds that can't be assaulted and reroll reserves.

Admit it, you just got proven wrong.

(^_^)

I hope for your sake you never go up against space marines, because a thunderfire cannon would deal with those as an afterthought. And yes they can be assaulted, because it's not impossible to move through a defense line. Any good player would probably not even bother though and laugh at those points you wasted.

herpguy wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

herpguy wrote:
There is no way a multi-wound T3 model that can't score will ever be good. It's like trying to find a use for CSM possessed. You just need to admit they're crap and move on.

Well, 3 can fearlessly hold a comms relay out of LoS.

That's 9 out of LoS 4+/2+ with a venom in the bastion T3 wounds that can't be assaulted and reroll reserves.

Admit it, you just got proven wrong.

(^_^)

I hope for your sake you never go up against space marines, because a thunderfire cannon would deal with those as an afterthought. And yes they can be assaulted, because it's not impossible to move through a defense line. Any good player would probably not even bother though and laugh at those points you wasted.

You can't assault the top of a bastion while there is a unit inside.

Hmm, 3 T3 wounds on a single instakillable non-scoring model for 19 points or 3 T3 wounds on 3 scoring models for 12 points...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Hmm, 3 T3 wounds on a single instakillable non-scoring model for 19 points or 3 T3 wounds on 3 scoring models for 12 points...

Ok you want to play the breakdown game lets play the breakdown game. Lets use base stats:

Termigaunts
Price per wound: 4
Price per attack: 4
Price per A to make poison: 2
Price to deepstrike:NA
Price per shooting S3 attack: 4

Hormigaunts:
Price per wound: 5
Price per attack: 2.5
Price per A to make poison:1.5
Price to deepstrike:NA
Price per shooting S3 attack: NA

Rippers:
Price per wound: 4.33
Price per attack: 3.25
Price per A to make poison:1
Price to deepstrike: 2
Price per shooting S3 attack: 4.25

People who ask why we would take them just remember that we have a ton of T4 multiwound models that have a crap armor save as well. ID is just one of those things if you play Nids.

You mean those Toughness 4 multiwound models no one takes if they don't have a 3++ or grant Shrouded?

Also you forgot this:

Termagants:
Price per strength 6 wound: 4

Hormagaunts:
Price per strength 6 wound: 5

Rippers"
Price per strength 6 wound: 19

 ductvader wrote:

barnowl wrote:
I play synapse heavy lists and six synapse units are not enough at 2000 points any more

What are you playing as synapse...in my last few games I've felt like I was way overcompensating for my bugs...synapse out the wazoo.

A melee flyrant, 3 solo zoanthrope, a prime embedded in Tyrant guard, a 3 warrior brood. It gets light vs Tau/taudar/DE lists. But to date I have not lost all synpase before losing the units that needed. The "T6" prime helps a lot. He just takes too many wounds in gaunt squads do to the T3.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You mean those Toughness 4 multiwound models no one takes if they don't have a 3++ or grant Shrouded?

Also you forgot this:

Termagants:
Price per strength 6 wound: 4

Hormagaunts:
Price per strength 6 wound: 5

Rippers"
Prince per strength 6 wound: 19

That is fair. But people do take the T4 multiwound models (well now we do because we kinda have too).

But lets take it a little deeper (because I need something to keep me occupied right now).

Point cost per max size unit lost per turn out of synapse:

Termigaunt:
Unit 30 guants. 120pts
Chance per turn of breaking outside of combat: 25%

Hormigaunt:
Unit size 30 gants.180pts
Chance per turn of getting Cannibalize outside of combat: 25%
Average points lost per Cannibalize: @70 pts on first failed IB.
Chance of breaking after Cannibalize: 50%

Rippers:
Unit size 9: 126pts
Chance per turn of getting Cannibalize outside of combat: 25%
Average points lost per Cannibalize: @14pts on first failed IB.
Chance of breaking after Cannibalize: 0

So everyone concentrates on how easy it is for the enemy to kill you. I'm worried about how easy it is for my army to kill itself.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You mean those Toughness 4 multiwound models no one takes if they don't have a 3++ or grant Shrouded?

Also you forgot this:

Termagants:
Price per strength 6 wound: 4

Hormagaunts:
Price per strength 6 wound: 5

Rippers"
Price per strength 6 wound: 19

Exactly this. I'm pretty sure that Rippers are going to very rarely, if ever, get killed by taking out their wounds one by one. It is a moot point that is hardly ever going to be a factor in a real game.

Just courious:

How many games have people played with the new codex?

How many times have they taken rippers in those games?

How many times did they take rippers with the old codex?

Here is mine for the record:

6 games new codex
2 times taken rippers with new codex
5th ed codex I took them 3 times without PoM. All in 5th though.

As for how big a factor they can be?
Swarm of 6 tox-rippers killing a riptide in one round of combat.(Not statistical only I think a 10% chance of happening with my list again)
Intercepted and tied up a unit of assault marines from a late game objective grab outside of synapse.

Not saying they are great, but how many people have actully used them before saying they are garbage?

 Gloomfang wrote:

How many games have people played with the new codex?

In my gaming club, we have been testing this new codex continously. We are now well over 25+ games. I played some 13 games with the new nids, though I have a very-shooty monster-smash army.

 Gloomfang wrote:
How many times have they taken rippers in those games?

One of the players in my club has a bunch of FW Rippers and he actually tried to make them work. He gave up on them after the fifth battle. The Rippers did absolutely nothing in each battle (other than spectacularly dying or acting as a large obstacle for the Tyranid(!) army, giving a win to the enemy twice in a row).

So yeah, when I say they are garbage, I know what I'm talking about .

@Gloomfang: As I mentioned before, i think that rippers CAN be useful but you cant denie that they cost to much for theire several weaknesses. T4 instakill weapons arent as common as T3 instant-kill weapons. When playing without synapse they might be youre only "reliable" tarpit unit and have two or three other niches, but why dont you take the FA Rippers? They are much faster for 3 Points more than the deepstrike troops choice and Speed is essential for tarpitters.

Toxin Rippers might kill a Riptide due to the sheer amount of attacks, but how often will you catch one? A skilled tau Player wouldn t let that happen twice.

I want them to shoot S6 weapons at the rippers and not my MCs though ... I'm only getting away with it for now I feel because they are not a unit people are used to seeing - as soon as they get used to them they will just ignore them and shoot something else that might be useful. As Nids you have to accept you're taking at least 30 models off the table in the first 2 turns, so make it ones you really don't care about! Smoke and mirrors is all we have right now.

I do have a lot of drop pods in my area though, so being able to ensure the enemy can't drop right into my MCs with a bunch of combi-weapons or a dreadnought is pretty useful. I don't like using termagants for this as they are actually useful late game as they can claim/contest and I'm not running 2 tervigons any more, so they are a little more scarce than before. Rippers are there to die, same as my gargoyles.

 ruminator wrote:
I want them to shoot S6 weapons at the rippers and not my MCs though ... I'm only getting away with it for now I feel because they are not a unit people are used to seeing - as soon as they get used to them they will just ignore them and shoot something else that might be useful. As Nids you have to accept you're taking at least 30 models off the table in the first 2 turns, so make it ones you really don't care about! Smoke and mirrors is all we have right now.

I do have a lot of drop pods in my area though, so being able to ensure the enemy can't drop right into my MCs with a bunch of combi-weapons or a dreadnought is pretty useful. I don't like using termagants for this as they are actually useful late game as they can claim/contest and I'm not running 2 tervigons any more, so they are a little more scarce than before. Rippers are there to die, same as my gargoyles.

This would be good if Rippers were super-cheap. But they aren't. You can still bring gaunts instead of them and nothing will change. Yeah, gaunts are more useful, but that's the point: for each point you spend on Rippers, you have less gaunts. So if you lose gaunts either way then why not just drop the Rippers entirely?

I get the impression sometimes that some forum members think the best strategy with Tyranids is to take as many fragile and expensive units as possible so as to overwhelm your opponent with easy kills.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I get the impression sometimes that some forum members think the best strategy with Tyranids is to take as many fragile and expensive units as possible so as to overwhelm your opponent with easy kills.

Actually, close, I've been doing something similar against Tau to great effect lately. I was thinking, how to minimize the impact of markerlights...well, have them affect less models at once. Have mid-large sized fire warrior units shooting and overkilling tiny squads means that my other tiny squads didn't get hurt.

If a unit of fire warriors can only kill five genestealers because they must, there goes a lot of damage potential wasted. That being said, rippers have no place for a tactic like that, Force Org slots fill up way to fast to put rippers in them.

The same has also been true of my carnifexes, Running them solo makes getting cover easier and means only one can get hurt per volley of fire.

The trick is to spend as few points as possible on each unit though, or at least on the sacrificial first wave.

EDIT: IG completely tear this strategy apart, they have enough units to shoot everywhere.

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
@Gloomfang: As I mentioned before, i think that rippers CAN be useful but you cant denie that they cost to much for theire several weaknesses. T4 instakill weapons arent as common as T3 instant-kill weapons. When playing without synapse they might be youre only "reliable" tarpit unit and have two or three other niches, but why dont you take the FA Rippers? They are much faster for 3 Points more than the deepstrike troops choice and Speed is essential for tarpitters.

Toxin Rippers might kill a Riptide due to the sheer amount of attacks, but how often will you catch one? A skilled tau Player wouldn t let that happen twice.

Oh they cost to much, but so do termigaunts now.

As for FA rippers I still have to try them out. Currently I have 1 brood Gargoyles, 1 brood raveners and 1 brood shrikes taking up all my FA slots. I might try the garg-bomb to move the gargoyles out of the FOC.

As for killing the riptide it was a matter of 2 things:
1) I concentrate on board control as I am using DL assasin brood and 3 solid units of 9 genestealers with broodlord. My opponent needed to get his riptide out of the kill zone as I had just taken down his other one with a couple of lictors. The only place he could move to was in charge range of the rippers and one of my lictors. I was planning on sending the rippers in first and then following up with the lictor but I blew the charge roll on the Lictor by rolling a 3.
2) I really underestimated how much riptides suck at CC and how much not having fearless or stubborn hurts them. He killed one stand of rippers with overwatch so I only had 5 stands in CC. I had 25 attacks, but we were both WS2 and I hit with 13 and (thanks to Toxin I caused 7 wounds. He failed on two 2+ saves and took two wounds. He went to hit me back and whiffed on on 3 attacks. That meant I won the combat and between the -2Ld from the wounds and -1Ld from the Lictor he had to pass a leadership check on Ld6. He failed and I caught him in the Sweeping Advance.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ruminator wrote:
I want them to shoot S6 weapons at the rippers and not my MCs though ... I'm only getting away with it for now I feel because they are not a unit people are used to seeing - as soon as they get used to them they will just ignore them and shoot something else that might be useful. As Nids you have to accept you're taking at least 30 models off the table in the first 2 turns, so make it ones you really don't care about! Smoke and mirrors is all we have right now.

I do have a lot of drop pods in my area though, so being able to ensure the enemy can't drop right into my MCs with a bunch of combi-weapons or a dreadnought is pretty useful. I don't like using termagants for this as they are actually useful late game as they can claim/contest and I'm not running 2 tervigons any more, so they are a little more scarce than before. Rippers are there to die, same as my gargoyles.

This would be good if Rippers were super-cheap. But they aren't. You can still bring gaunts instead of them and nothing will change. Yeah, gaunts are more useful, but that's the point: for each point you spend on Rippers, you have less gaunts. So if you lose gaunts either way then why not just drop the Rippers entirely?

... because people know what gants do and won't fire high Str weapons at gants but instead fire at my MCs. If I run ripper swarms they seem strangely obsessed with killing them first and letting my MCs go unmolested. Strange I know, but that's how it's going at the mo. I do actively point out the insta-kill opportunities to my opponents though when they are choosing targets - me bad!

I've been enlightened by this.

Rippers seem to me to be a good unit to feth around with. I don't think you'd expect say, 6 of them to do much because they're so easy to kill off, but there is always that element of tieing up combat and the fact that it's wasted shooting to kill them.

Thankyou, dakka. You finally managed to make me interested in a unit.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I get the impression sometimes that some forum members think the best strategy with Tyranids is to take as many fragile and expensive units as possible so as to overwhelm your opponent with easy kills.

Sort of. More expensive models, but cheaper units. Its a combination of board control and forcing wasted points via overkill like Ductvader said. 20 S5 shots can cost you 120 pts of vanilla hormigaunts or completely kill a unit of 5 genestealers that cost you 70pts or kill about 70pts worth of rippers.

Your opponent only has so many shots a turn. My list is built so I can lose about 500-700pts in turn 1 and that the other 1300-1500pts can be depended to keep my opponent trapped in his deployment zone and unable to seize objectives or fulfill objectives ( my FA or HS are not part of the disposable section of my army).

I will say that I have problems with Purge.

 Gloomfang wrote:

I will say that I have problems with Purge.

1 in 6 isn't a bad bet.

 ductvader wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

I will say that I have problems with Purge.

1 in 6 isn't a bad bet.

Better odds then that as I tend to play mostly in tournys and they tend to have primary and secondary and sometimes odd special little mission objectives. Things like Warp Artifact (or something like that) where you put 6 objectives on the board and every turn roll to remove one until there is only one left.

The other issue with being a tourny player is that you really can't go swarm as there is not enough time. Last time I went swarm I ended up playing a Green Tide ork army one of the games and we only made it to the bottom of turn 2 before time ran out. We had close to 300 models on the board between the 2 of us.

 ruminator wrote:

... because people know what gants do and won't fire high Str weapons at gants but instead fire at my MCs. If I run ripper swarms they seem strangely obsessed with killing them first and letting my MCs go unmolested.

But if you DS the Rippers then they won't be a threat until Turn 3 (at best), so your opponent will have at least 2 and maybe even 3 turns to molest your MCs - that's usually the time period when your MCs will either die or get into combat anyway. If the Rippers start on the table then they ill be a threat around Turn 3 again because they are sloooooooow.

Wow, it is just so hard to believe that anyone can suck it up... Like, IMHO, you need to use telepathy and mind control your opponent to shoot those poor Rippers because they present so (obviously) little threat.