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 AtoMaki wrote:

But if you DS the Rippers then they won't be a threat until Turn 3 (at best), so your opponent will have at least 2 and maybe even 3 turns to molest your MCs - that's usually the time period when your MCs will either die or get into combat anyway. If the Rippers start on the table then they ill be a threat around Turn 3 again because they are sloooooooow.

Wow, it is just so hard to believe that anyone can suck it up... Like, IMHO, you need to use telepathy and mind control your opponent to shoot those poor Rippers because they present so (obviously) little threat.

About turn 3 sounds right. Like I said I run an odd list.

No MCs or FMCs in my lists.
8 Broods of genestealers.
5 Units of 1 Lictor + DL
5 units of various DS units.
Firestorm Redoubt with void + comms relay to hide my 3 biovores.

Its amazing what you can by when your not wasting your points on things like flyrants that get killed turn 2.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ruminator wrote:

... because people know what gants do and won't fire high Str weapons at gants but instead fire at my MCs. If I run ripper swarms they seem strangely obsessed with killing them first and letting my MCs go unmolested.

But if you DS the Rippers then they won't be a threat until Turn 3 (at best), so your opponent will have at least 2 and maybe even 3 turns to molest your MCs - that's usually the time period when your MCs will either die or get into combat anyway. If the Rippers start on the table then they ill be a threat around Turn 3 again because they are sloooooooow.

Wow, it is just so hard to believe that anyone can suck it up... Like, IMHO, you need to use telepathy and mind control your opponent to shoot those poor Rippers because they present so (obviously) little threat.

It's necron scarab swarm conditioning. It is as far as I know the only other swarm unit in 40k, and it is nasty.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Repeat after me: Rippers are not a bad unit..

This^

I have always loved Rippers <3

 Gloomfang wrote:
Repeat after me: Rippers are not a bad unit..

barnowl wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ruminator wrote:

... because people know what gants do and won't fire high Str weapons at gants but instead fire at my MCs. If I run ripper swarms they seem strangely obsessed with killing them first and letting my MCs go unmolested.

But if you DS the Rippers then they won't be a threat until Turn 3 (at best), so your opponent will have at least 2 and maybe even 3 turns to molest your MCs - that's usually the time period when your MCs will either die or get into combat anyway. If the Rippers start on the table then they ill be a threat around Turn 3 again because they are sloooooooow.

Wow, it is just so hard to believe that anyone can suck it up... Like, IMHO, you need to use telepathy and mind control your opponent to shoot those poor Rippers because they present so (obviously) little threat.

It's necron scarab swarm conditioning. It is as far as I know the only other swarm unit in 40k, and it is nasty.

With Beast movement, Entropic Strike and Tomb Spiders? Yeah, it is pretty cool. But we are talking about Rippers that only have the worst Instinctive Behavior instead of these .

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Repeat after me: Rippers are not a bad unit..

I'll try... *ahem* "Rippers are not a scoring unit".

 Gloomfang wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Repeat after me: Rippers are not a bad unit..

I'll try... *ahem* "Rippers are not a scoring unit".

Try this. I have other scoring units.

I have 8-9 other scoring units in my 1999pt army. If you already have 6 other troops and are not going outside your FOC to get more then I can see why that matters. Heck we have a scoring MC that makes other scoreing troops.

So you take Rippers just for fun? Sounds like plan for me !

 AtoMaki wrote:


So you take Rippers just for fun? Sounds like plan for me !

No I take them as part of a larger list strategy. The strategy mainly consists of a large number of small units that have small points costs and have special deployment rules that allow them to either deploy closer to the enemy.
So deepstriking rippers works well with that strategy. They are some of the first things that I drop out of my list when I go down in points though.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:


So you take Rippers just for fun? Sounds like plan for me !

No I take them as part of a larger list strategy. The strategy mainly consists of a large number of small units that have small points costs and have special deployment rules that allow them to either deploy closer to the enemy.
So deepstriking rippers works well with that strategy.

How is that? Your army is a Turn 1 pressure force. Rippers are Turn 3 at best, Turn 5 at worst so they will be late to the party. Wouldn't be Jeanstealers more viable? For +1 ppm you actually get a unit that does exactly what it should do.

It feels a lot like you only include Rippers in your army because you have models for it, you can do it, so why not.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Jeanstealers

This, is just irritating.

Though it doesn't bug me as bad as Trevigons or Termagaunts.

 AtoMaki wrote:

How is that? Your army is a Turn 1 pressure force. Rippers are Turn 3 at best, Turn 5 at worst so they will be late to the party. Wouldn't be Jeanstealers more viable? For +1 ppm you actually get a unit that does exactly what it should do.

It feels a lot like you only include Rippers in your army because you have models for it, you can do it, so why not.

Currently I have 8 broods of genestealers in my 1999pt list. It fluxtuates between 55 stealers and 43 (if you count broodlords as stealers). Combine that with 5 lictors and DL to get the base core.

Now genestealers can shred through most units. However there are times when I need more wounds, attacks or time. IG blob squads are a good example. Other times there is a unit that escapes my trap or DS in later and I need to block or delay the unit for a few turns without using one of my heavy hitting DS broods like my shrikes or raveners (as they are definitely not cheap units).

So my FA slots are filled up (the last unit is gargoyles as their IB isn’t horrible). The options in HQ and HS are too expensive or impractical (the mawlock looks tempting with as many lictors as I have on the board, but my units are generally in CC by the time they would show up).
So I am left with troops. I have 2 open slots in my FOC and my only DS option is rippers. So I am trying them out. They are not doing badly because they fill a niche in my army.

I will say they are only tentatively in my list, but I have never felt like I made a mistake by taking them. I definitely don’t feel like I need more stealers. If I decide to add the Red Terror permanently to my list though they are gone because I need the points.

 ductvader wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Jeanstealers

This, is just irritating.

It is real!

So I'm going to assume that are using double FoC Gloomfang.

Manufactorum genestealers are 5 scoring units that are taken out of FOC. it's possible to do with a single FOC.

 Gloomfang wrote:

Now genestealers can shred through most units. However there are times when I need more wounds, attacks or time. IG blob squads are a good example. Other times there is a unit that escapes my trap or DS in later and I need to block or delay the unit for a few turns without using one of my heavy hitting DS broods like my shrikes or raveners (as they are definitely not cheap units).

And how can the Rippers do any of these? The IG blob hits sooner and will probably munch the Rippers (thank you WS2) in one Assault phase. And you can't even block runaways with DS-ing Rippers because they DS in and sit tight for a whole turn so your enemy can escape again or shoot them to shreds because your army is on the other side of the board anyway. And even in their own turn, there is a 36% chance that the Rippers will do nothing or go haywire like charge the wrong enemy unit because it is closer (all it takes is a vehicle put closer to them than the unit and they are useless).

I'm not saying that you can't get lucky with them, or your opponent can't botch his tactics, but as i can see, Jeanstealers tend to be luckier for +1 ppm .

Then Gloomfand must be using two dataslates - Lictors and Genestealers ...

 felixcat wrote:
Then Gloomfand must be using two dataslates - Lictors and Genestealers ...

Yes... it appears so.

1) Yes I am using 2 formations. Deathleaper Assaination Squad and Muni Genestealers. One FOC as we play 1999pts to avoid double FOC.

2) I might be lucky with them. I generally DS them in an area where I think an enemy unit will go and if I am facing a big blob I use terrain or angle of attack to minimize the number of guys hitting back (especially things like Commisars). I don't try to use them to chase units as rippers are too slow. More board control than anything else. Against things that don't ID my unit of 6 stands has 24 wounds and they do have a (garbage) armor save. Don't really care if they kill anything as long as they bottle up a unit for one turn or more so that one or more of my more beefy units can hit them.

3) Generally don't care if they sit there and gnaw on their own legs as I generally just want them to be a speed bump. Stealers can't do that because they can only Infiltrate or Outflank so I needed something to drop in when needed. I have a unit of gargoyles that fills some of the same needs, but I tend to want them as a denial unit for far off objectives.

 Gloomfang wrote:
1) Stealers can't do that because they can only Infiltrate or Outflank so I needed something to drop in when needed.

Stealers are also 14pts/wound instead of 4.3-5 pts/wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just have to say...what are we worried about here?

Broadsides?
Wave Serpents?

Anyone shooting either unit at rippers has my full blessing.



Armies that rippers are really a bad choice against...Tesla and Chimeras.

But you don't always pick your opponents.

 ductvader wrote:

I just have to say...what are we worried about here?

Boltguns, massed lasguns, pulse rifles, y'know, stuff that destroys T3 Sv6+. You don't have to spend S6 on Rippers - they die to small arms fire just as easily. Or better yet, you can just simply ignore them and blast the rest of the Tyranid army into pieces. Rippers won't win battles if they are the only ones left on the field.

I'm more interested in what you could threaten with Rippers. Vehicles and large units hard-counter them. They are a big no-no against units with blast/template weapons and units with S6+ attacks or massed S3-4-5 attacks. Soooo... they can bully lone support ICs, crippled units and random stragglers? W-O-W...

Also, as a side note, you can infiltrate surplus Jeanstealers all across the table if you want table control. They can react instantly and they will be a threat right from the beginning.

If you run them as suggested with toxin and ds they are a more than 4.3-5 a wound.

It tend to find that doing something outside the box and new tends to get people interested in what you are doing and why.

Lets face it if you put together a list of all the units people thought were garbage last edition (an honestly even with the new codex) you end up with most of my army list:

Lictors
Genestealers
Warriors
Rippers
Shrikes
Raveners

The only units that people consider "good" that I field are:
Gargoyles- 1 brood
Biovores- I take 3 of them and I tend to run as 3 broods of 1.
Vengeance Weapon Battery (and I might be upgrading that to a firestorm Redoubt).

So when someone comes along who people know (I am better known on The Hive) is a pretty good player and has been playing for something like 20 years and builds a list out of garbage units it makes people stop and think.

I ran my tourny list from late last year with the new codex with minor tweaks due to points. I damn near got tabled for the first few games. I tried to retool for the codex weaknesses against hyper competitive players and fell short. My new list is very experimental and I understand people wanting to know "How do you get that garbage to work?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Also, as a side note, you can infiltrate surplus Jeanstealers all across the table if you want table control. They can react instantly and they will be a threat right from the beginning.

I am looking at that. It's just that I would need a sizable amout of stealers to not just get blown off the table with lasguns or bolters. Vader had the math off a little (my Rippers are about 20pts per unit so 5pts per wound) but he is right that is better than 14pts per wound.

If I could take Termigaunts in a pod I would so replace the rippers in a heartbeat. But... you know...

\I am not questioning your skill Gloomfand at all. I'm just trying to get a perspective on your list. I find it quite a refreshing approach actually. Let's be honest. We cannot play the new codex the same way we played the old one in today's meta. We need to figure out how not to get 'tabled' by Tau and Necrons, etc.

 Gloomfang wrote:

I ran my tourny list from late last year with the new codex with minor tweaks due to points. I damn near got tabled for the first few games. I tried to retool for the codex weaknesses against hyper competitive players and fell short. My new list is very experimental and I understand people wanting to know "How do you get that garbage to work?"

The pressure list is actually quite decent in the 6th edition. It is like the new Tyranid codex turned up to 11: raw risk, banking on luck and hoping for a good matchup (both army and opponent wise). I just can't understand why you spoiled the list with Rippers instead of taking something that is actually useful.

 Gloomfang wrote:

I am looking at that. It's just that I would need a sizable amout of stealers to not just get blown off the table with lasguns or bolters. Vader had the math off a little (my Rippers are about 20pts per unit so 5pts per wound) but he is right that is better than 14pts per wound.

Jeanstealers are also T4 and can go to ground. it is also a good thing if they draw fire from Turn 1 from your main pressure bullet. They can also hurt stuff so you probably won't need to redirect the killy units to deal with random stragglers.

Like I said the list is a work in progress.
However not everything is about being "killy". Sometimes I just need something that can take a bunch of punishment without folding or getting blown off the table. I am much more likely to replace the rippers and my big unit of gargoyles with the gargoyle bomb.
So as long as my need for something to soak up 20+ S5 or less shots is less then my need for scoring, killing or speed I think I'll will keep the rippers. If they stop filling a neeed then they are gone.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Sometimes I just need something that can take a bunch of punishment without folding or getting blown off the table.

I once played a 2500 pt game where I "Massacred" the enemy in Victory Points.

End Game : Pts still alive

ME: 70 something pts
OPPONENT: 2300ish pts

I got the massacre by owning or contesting all objectives on the table.



As long as it isn't purge, you don't really have to worry about dying so much.

I regret to inform everyone that after doing a list re-balancing during lunch while reviewing game notes that the rippers did not make the cut.

Their biomass is now fused with a firestorm redoubt as I need a better way of dealing with flyers. It shall also protect my biovores.

 Gloomfang wrote:
I regret to inform everyone that after doing a list re-balancing during lunch while reviewing game notes that the rippers did not make the cut.

Their biomass is now fused with a firestorm redoubt as I need a better way of dealing with flyers. It shall also protect my biovores.

I just assembled my redoubt today and will be field-testing it tomorrow. I was pretty impressed with the overall size of the kit!

Edit to add: Don't forget to add a quad gun! Because, well, Quad gun!

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I regret to inform everyone that after doing a list re-balancing during lunch while reviewing game notes that the rippers did not make the cut.

Their biomass is now fused with a firestorm redoubt as I need a better way of dealing with flyers. It shall also protect my biovores.

I just assembled my redoubt today and will be field-testing it tomorrow. I was pretty impressed with the overall size of the kit!

Edit to add: Don't forget to add a quad gun! Because, well, Quad gun!

Think I am OK with the 2 lascannons that come standard. The Comms array, Magos and void shield are tempting me though.

 AtoMaki wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ruminator wrote:

... because people know what gants do and won't fire high Str weapons at gants but instead fire at my MCs. If I run ripper swarms they seem strangely obsessed with killing them first and letting my MCs go unmolested.

But if you DS the Rippers then they won't be a threat until Turn 3 (at best), so your opponent will have at least 2 and maybe even 3 turns to molest your MCs - that's usually the time period when your MCs will either die or get into combat anyway. If the Rippers start on the table then they ill be a threat around Turn 3 again because they are sloooooooow.

Wow, it is just so hard to believe that anyone can suck it up... Like, IMHO, you need to use telepathy and mind control your opponent to shoot those poor Rippers because they present so (obviously) little threat.

It's necron scarab swarm conditioning. It is as far as I know the only other swarm unit in 40k, and it is nasty.

With Beast movement, Entropic Strike and Tomb Spiders? Yeah, it is pretty cool. But we are talking about Rippers that only have the worst Instinctive Behavior instead of these .

Like I said conditioning. The reverse was true when the new Scarabs dropped in 5e, nobody even looked at them, then EEEE, kill them kill them all. That "kill the swarm" reflex often gets you some time against people that are not used to see the rippers.