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Makumba wrote:
But an Iron Hands self regenerating uber Land Raider immune to melta is a problem at 1500 pts . Same with turbo laster armed titans that clock under 800pts . People who have re make their armies to deal with FW stuff , and it would start an arms race that most wouldn't be able to keep one . Buying a 1500pts army is one thing , buying that and a titan or anti defense or ally to deal with them makes the army cost twice as much . I would rather play an eldar army every three days , then one with a titan , where a guy just removes 3-4 tanks from my army per turn .

I have a Transcendent C'tan, it is an Escalation approved GMC model by GW "proper" that I can field with 18" strength D movement (automatic D hits on anything in its path) and 2 strength D hellstorm templates (those are the gigantic 18.5" flamer templates) for 780pts. It has T9 Sv3+/4++ FNP5+ 6W I5 8A and all the goodies you get for being a GMC.

I can legally field this model with the above configuration in a 1,000pts game if I feel so inclined while obeying the FOC rules.

Name ONE original FW model that's anywhere near as overpowered as that.

 Galorian wrote:


Name ONE original FW model that's anywhere near as overpowered as that.

Power loader sentinel.

So powerful, people quake in fear at even fielding one. The sheer terror of wielding that much power is too much for a mere mortal.

Makumba wrote:
But even If I would have the money to buy saber weapon platforms ,which are clearly superior to hvy weapon teams , I would have to order a FW book and have a bank account with a credit card and buy the stuff online , because no store here sells FW stuff . Not even the single GW store we have.

Honestly, how do you even function in the modern world without a credit/debit card? Maybe there's a difference between countries involved, but in the US you hardly ever use paper money anymore, and ordering stuff online (everything from books to pizza) is standard. For me the only difference between ordering a "core" GW product and ordering something from FW is that shipping from FW takes a bit longer.

But an Iron Hands self regenerating uber Land Raider immune to melta is a problem at 1500 pts.

Not really. In fact it's good for the game to have some melta-immune tanks that force you to consider anti-tank options besides "drop pod of melta sternguard". And that tank costs 300+ points, without even counting the unit you're going to want to put in it to justify that cost. In a 1500 point game that's a third of your army or more, so, like most death stars, it becomes dangerously vulnerable to being fed a cheap meatshield every turn while your opponent focuses on killing your troops and winning the mission objectives.

Same with turbo laster armed titans that clock under 800pts.

I agree that turbolaser Warhounds are a problem, but they aren't FW rules. FW makes the model kit, but "core" GW wrote and published the rules for it.

I would rather play an eldar army every three days , then one with a titan , where a guy just removes 3-4 tanks from my army per turn.

You realize that the Eldar titan is in the GW Escalation book, right? Banning FW rules doesn't get rid of D-weapon titans, and a Revenant is a lot scarier than a Warhound.

How many units in the IG codex have D class weapons?

How many FW IG units have D-weapons?

(Hint: none of them do.)

As for the claim that only the overpowered models would be bought, that claim is utterly baseless from my experience- a lot of people from the local gaming scene have FW models and yet I've never so much as glimpsed any of the models I always see people in forum complaining about. From my experience people buy FW for variety, superior quality, fluff, coolness factor and flexibility in listbuilding.

The lists that people call tournament and non casual here is something that people build here as their first lists . We don't have a casual and non casual players . Only those with enough money and luck to buy enough serpents , riptides or what ever else is needed to make their army good,. those that don't have the money and those that wish they could have bough enough models they wanted , but they can't because those were already sold to other people and they have to run weaker lists or wait till someone is going to be selling their own armies .



A

nd by the way, you seem to have misunderstood Blacksails' meaning- he wasn't saying that FW models were as bad as Escalation, he was saying that nothing in FW is worse than what already exists in the regular codices and that Escalation is even worse than the codices are.

But turbo laser armed Warhounds and Eldar Titans are FW units , one did make it in to the escalation book and the other one didn't , but it doesn't change the fact that D class weapons were not part of the core rules . D weapons aren't even mentioned in the BRB .

Honestly, how do you even function in the modern world without a credit/debit card?

a bit over 30% of paying is done with credit cards here.

Not really. In fact it's good for the game to have some melta-immune tanks that force you to consider anti-tank options besides "drop pod of melta sternguard". And that tank costs 300+ points, without even counting the unit you're going to want to put in it to justify that cost. In a 1500 point game that's a third of your army or more, so, like most death stars, it becomes dangerously vulnerable to being fed a cheap meatshield every turn while your opponent focuses on killing your troops and winning the mission objectives.

I play IG , melta is my anti tank . When GW decides to give me other weapons for anti tank which I can take multiples of I will do it . 1500 pts of a death star rides up , kills my ground troops , my vets in valks can't get out or they die and they can't destroy the tank , I can of course try to kill the tank with my vendettas , but it repairs itself and the marine players has his own flyers and interceptors to shot at my stuff.

I have a Transcendent C'tan, it is an Escalation approved GMC model by GW "proper" that I can field with 18" strength D movement (automatic D hits on anything in its path) and 2 strength D hellstorm templates (those are the gigantic 18.5" flamer templates) for 780pts. It has T9 Sv3+/4++ FNP5+ 6W I5 8A and all the goodies you get for being a GMC.

I can legally field this model with the above configuration in a 1,000pts game if I feel so inclined while obeying the FOC rules.

Awesome must be good to have designers on your side .

How many FW IG units have D-weapons?

But eldar do . Eldar already have good ways to play , I don't want to worry about their titans on top of baron stars and taudars.

I agree that turbolaser Warhounds are a problem, but they aren't FW rules. FW makes the model kit, but "core" GW wrote and published the rules for it.

Core W40k doesn't even have rules for D class weapons .

Makumba wrote:

But turbo laser armed Warhounds and Eldar Titans are FW units , one did make it in to the escalation book and the other one didn't , but it doesn't change the fact that D class weapons were not part of the core rules . D weapons aren't even mentioned in the BRB .

They're mentioned in Escalation, a book put out by Games Workshop with rules published by Games Workshop, not Forge World.

If you're going to try and claim FW makes the game somehow unplayable and broken, at least have the courtesy to recognize that GW publications are often as bad if not worse than anything FW puts out. Its irrelevant who put the model out when we're talking about the rules, which were written for use in 'standard' 40k by GW.

Besides, it sounds like your meta has a problem other than FW. Sounds a lot like the balance problems you're experiencing are the sole cause of GW publications.

Makumba wrote:

nd by the way, you seem to have misunderstood Blacksails' meaning- he wasn't saying that FW models were as bad as Escalation, he was saying that nothing in FW is worse than what already exists in the regular codices and that Escalation is even worse than the codices are.

But turbo laser armed Warhounds and Eldar Titans are FW units , one did make it in to the escalation book and the other one didn't , but it doesn't change the fact that D class weapons were not part of the core rules . D weapons aren't even mentioned in the BRB .

And does that make them overpowered? No, because, and don't make me repeat my self, THEY ARE NO PART OF REGULAR 40K. If your playing against them, then you have the option to get or proxy them too.

If a model is made by FW then it is a FW model . Doesn't matter , if later GW decided to give it different rules.If it were different it would be ok to use non GW models at tournamants and you can't .

Warhound titans had turbolasers , before escalation , in fact they aren't even in the book and they are as OP as hell.

Makumba wrote:
If a model is made by FW then it is a FW model . Doesn't matter , if later GW decided to give it different rules.If it were different it would be ok to use non GW models at tournamants and you can't .

Warhound titans had turbolasers , before escalation , in fact they aren't even in the book and they are as OP as hell.

*Sigh* You're now blaming FW for making a model, but not putting any of the blame on the thing you seem to actually have a problem with; the rules.

The rules are published by GW. I don't know why you keep ignoring this. Much of the rules in Escalation actually come from Apoc, which is also conveniently published by GW. You're splitting hairs trying to find a reason FW is the bad guy when GW is the one steering the ship.

Makumba wrote:If a model is made by FW then it is a FW model . Doesn't matter , if later GW decided to give it different rules.If it were different it would be ok to use non GW models at tournamants and you can't .

Warhound titans had turbolasers , before escalation , in fact they aren't even in the book and they are as OP as hell.

Your making me repeat myself.

Co'tor Shas wrote: And does that make them overpowered? No, because, and don't make me repeat my self, THEY ARE NO PART OF REGULAR 40K. If your playing against them, then you have the option to get or proxy them too.

Also the warhound titian is not really OP considering it's price and that it is made of apocalypse. If you are going to say something is OP then use an example that is allowed in reg 40K and is not an experimental rule.

Makumba wrote:
If a model is made by FW then it is a FW model . Doesn't matter , if later GW decided to give it different rules.If it were different it would be ok to use non GW models at tournamants and you can't .

Warhound titans had turbolasers , before escalation , in fact they aren't even in the book and they are as OP as hell.

Escalation is a GW rulebook. The Warhound and Revenant titans are models with official GW rules.

These are not FW units, FW just casts the resin.

If you're going to try and bash FW for supposedly "overpowered" stuff they make, at least have the decency to do it regarding models they actually wrote the rules for.

If your local organizers are not allowing even FW models for "core" GW codex entries then they're a bunch of greedy donkey-caves who's tournaments I would never agree to take part in. Reminds me of the time a friend of mine took heavy flack from some WYSIWYG fanatics for "daring" to sculpt a snakelike body for his Daemon Prince out of greenstuff for his Nordic themed CSM army, despite the fact that said scratchbuild had the same overall measurements as the original model and used all its bits but the torso, head and legs.

Makumba wrote:
But an Iron Hands self regenerating uber Land Raider immune to melta is a problem at 1500 pts.

Moreso than 2++ rerollable screamerstars and hordes of waveserpents? It's tough, but if all you brought to engage AV14 was meltaguns, you'd have run into other problems as well most likely. IWND also isn't as useful as it's being made out to be. At 1500pts that's basically also a fifth of your opponent's army in one unit that can do nothing for mission objectives in 2/3rds of missions and is basically a really expensive thunderfire cannon.

Same with turbo laster armed titans that clock under 800pts.

GW's the one that put that out there, not FW. Hell, GW's the one that made the D weapon rule, before it existed, such weapons were usually S9/10 AP1/2. FW just makes the model, it's rules and availability outside of apocalypse as they stand are not something FW had as hand in.

People who have re make their armies to deal with FW stuff , and it would start an arms race that most wouldn't be able to keep one . Buying a 1500pts army is one thing , buying that and a titan or anti defense or ally to deal with them makes the army cost twice as much .

If you're not playing with Escalation, then such a concern is meaningless. If you are, well, FW's not the one that opened that can of worms, those are straight GW core design studio books and rules.

I would rather play an eldar army every three days , then one with a titan , where a guy just removes 3-4 tanks from my army per turn .

Then don't play with Escalation or Apocalypse. Allowing FW doesn't mean people get to bring Titans outside of that.

How many units in the IG codex have D class weapons ?

How many non-escalation/non-apoc FW units have D-weapons? None. These things only come into play with escalation/apocalypse.

And what you call power gaming is the way all games , no matter what system are played here .

I have never seen anyone want to buy FW models ,because of altternate models , But I have heard ton of people talking about the pre nerf uber Riptide, DKoK mortars , Saber Weapon platforms , pre nerf lucius pods etc I think your "normal" and normal here are very different .

That may be, in which case you're also probably sitting around with lots of Screamerstars, skimmerspam Eldar, allies shennangans, and the like. In which case none of these things are going to be any more powerful than the FW stuff you're talking about, which still aren't on the same level (R'varna rules are still experimental and not final, Thudd Guns require allies with Divination to be truly abuseable and if used in a DKoK army that can't happen, Sabre platforms have to deal with being immobile and Ld7, etc).

If you're dealing with powergaming already, FW isn't going to make it any worse, it may just make it different.

It is pay to win here . Everyone with cash can go in to a store and buy the riptides , serpents etc At least technicly , because normaly GW sends always too few of those and it is hard to build an army from scratch

In which case...how's FW going to be different than anything else? I'm not seeing the disconnect here.

. But even If I would have the money to buy saber weapon platforms ,which are clearly superior to hvy weapon teams

Just because they're better doesn't mean they're overpowered, HWT's are amongst the least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, as well as probably the most fragile. Most things are better than HWT's.

, I would have to order a FW book and have a bank account with a credit card and buy the stuff online , because no store here sells FW stuff . Not even the single GW store we have.

They don't sell Sisters of Battle either. You can't walk into a GW store and buy a Sisters of Battle codex and mini's. Also, who doesn't have a debit card in this day and age?

Ergo no one buys the models he can get cheaper . So what is left are the good units , which you can't get in a store or counts as . Let me check how much I would have to send on sabers .
9 sabers 22,50 each is 202,50 . The vat on toys in Poland is 23% , which also happens to be the the highest vat in EU , so if I ordered the sabers from FW I would have to pay the difference between UK and Polish vat . Am still under 250 pounds bought so I have to pay for delivery . Because the whole thing now costs like 1/2 an avarge wage here , so the box will be opened by cutoms to check what is inside and if they find the models fancy they can slap a 200% luxury product special tax on it . But lets say that doesn't happen . for the cost of 9 sabers one can get a whole Warmachine army or WFB oger army. And not just 9 models that don't even make up the core of a list . So to me , that seems very pricy .

Yes it is, but that's one unit amongst many, and you'd probably face the same thing buying a Sisters of Battle army.

Nobody said you should rush out and buy a ton of some of the most expensive units FW sells, just like nobody is telling you to run out and build a footslogging Dire Avenger-horde Eldar army either.

But turbo laser armed Warhounds and Eldar Titans are FW units , one did make it in to the escalation book and the other one didn't , but it doesn't change the fact that D class weapons were not part of the core rules . D weapons aren't even mentioned in the BRB.

D weapons are core studio rules, FW didn't invent them. FW just makes the resin model, the rules for both of those units as they currently stand were written by the GW studio, and as such the FW studio cannot change them. The current Shadowsword model, and rules, with it's D weapon, are both courtesy of GW.

And again, if you're not running Escalation or Apocalypse, you won't see them. This argument isn't a FW/No FW one, it's an Escalation/No Escalation argument. Very different things.

I play IG , melta is my anti tank. When GW decides to give me other weapons for anti tank which I can take multiples of I will do it .

Also as an IG player, I call shennanigans here. You have access to far more AT guns than just meltas. If that's what you're limiting yourself to, it's your own fault when you have access to gobs of Lascannons, S10 AP2 2d6 armor pen Medusas, Vendettas, Demolishers, Manticores, etc.

As one IG player to another, you have the tools to engage that tank effectively, you just aren't using them, and FW would just give you access to even more, like Rapier Laser Destroyers. If all you're sitting on for dealing with heavy tanks is meltas, that's a problem.

1500 pts of a death star rides up , kills my ground troops , my vets in valks can't get out or they die and they can't destroy the tank , I can of course try to kill the tank with my vendettas , but it repairs itself and the marine players has his own flyers and interceptors to shot at my stuff.

You're assuming the IWND is going to be doing a while bunch, it doesn't (it'll regain 1 HP on average every 3 turns...). Target the stuff that'll kill your flyers, then engage the tank with your vendettas and have your vets engage other targets. If you're relying that much on Valks (amusingly also once a FW unit...) and Vends, you probably don't have enough Vendettas and are getting further hamstrung by the vehicle squadron mechanics.

Core W40k doesn't even have rules for D class weapons .

The core GW studio wrote the rules for D weapons and allowing Titans in normal games, not FW. They introduced such weapons in Apocalypse and Escalation.

Makumba wrote:
If a model is made by FW then it is a FW model .

Wait what? That's ridiculous. FW makes the plastic model, everything you're complaining about was written by GW. Neither the Revenant nor the Warhound Titan's current rules were done by FW, but by GW's core design studio and published in non-FW books like Escalation and Apocalypse.

Doesn't matter , if later GW decided to give it different rules.If it were different it would be ok to use non GW models at tournamants and you can't .

At GW's one official tournament, Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World, you certainly can use your 4 D-strength pieplate Revenant titan or Warhound Titan.

Warhound titans had turbolasers , before escalation ,

Want to know what FW's original rules for Turbolasers were before the core GW studio changed them?

S9 AP2 Heavy 2 Small Blast 72" range.

in fact they aren't even in the book and they are as OP as hell.

Warhounds are far less OP than the Revenant (which is in the book and only 50pts more), and far easier to destroy (and included in the GW, not FW, produced Apocalypse book). Either way, FW didn't allow their inclusion in non-apoc games before Escalation (well, several editions ago they did, but that was before Apoc existed, and your opponent automatically got to use two FoC's against you). Everything you're complaining about is stuff that FW didn't write or allow, all they do for these models is make the plastic.

Makumba wrote:
But turbo laser armed Warhounds and Eldar Titans are FW units

No they aren't. The model kits are made by FW, but the rules are written and published by "core" GW.

I play IG , melta is my anti tank . When GW decides to give me other weapons for anti tank which I can take multiples of I will do it .

Lascannons, LR Vanquishers, Manticores, LR Demolishers, bastion breacher Medusas, and a long list of superheavy tanks with GW rules. And that's just the stuff that is good at killing AV 14, if you want to include things that aren't all that effective but can still attempt to kill it if they have to (like Basilisks and missile launchers) the list gets even longer. Sounds like the problem is your lack of imagination, not the rules.

But eldar do . Eldar already have good ways to play , I don't want to worry about their titans on top of baron stars and taudars.

Sure, Eldar have a couple D-weapon tanks. Too bad nobody is ever going to use them unless they're deliberately weakening their list to go easy on a newbie, since the core-GW Revenant titan is much better than any of those tanks.

Core W40k doesn't even have rules for D class weapons .

Guess who the Escalation and Apocalypse books were published by: the same "core" GW that writes the codices. And Escalation is part of "core" 40k now whether you like it or not.

Nothing oozes the Rule of Cool like a FW army. I find that people are more interested in playing my DKoK than a GW codex army. I always just make sure to have a printed version of the Siege Regiment army list available for my opponent to read at any point before or during the game.

Makumba wrote:
Core W40k doesn't even have rules for D class weapons .

So? The core rulebook doesn't have rules for the Heldrake's Baleflamer, either. The whole purpose of supplements, Codexes, etc., is to add to the core rules.

But don't you think that the models coming out of FW are SOOOOOOOO overcosted? Yeah they're pretty and ace! But it's resin!

£600 for a titan? I can buy a fekin CAR for that price. This sh*t ain't even painted, assembled or even slot fit able?

Don't get me wrong though. I get that it's a hobby and I did enjoy putting my Reaver together and painting. But for what you pay I really do expect a lot more from them.

Same goes for the £45 kits and buildings. I've seen 10-15 quid kids toys that were better designed for assembly.

Apparently the new Fire Raptor model is aweful. With paper thin parts in places and they are very easily warped during manufacture. So while they're nice and cool, the quality just doesn't live up to the "Luxury" tag.

With fw going to be stocked and sold at gw stores starting April 7th, and strong rumors fw models will be in new ig codex, fw will become more seen in peoples armies...