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I was wondering on Dakka's opinion on Forgeworld products and their use. I thought it would be kind of interesting to find out.


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Me first, I love Forgeworld, but don't have the money to buy much. I have a list of what I want to buy to create the army list I made that I really want to play with

Personally, I have no issue with Forge World in terms of either power or usage. I'd love to see more FW played in my area, just because it's interesting to see something new/rare, and I know no one would abuse the potential OPness of a small minority of FW units (although I really can't see how they're any more OP than Screamerstar/Triptides). Most FW units also look amazing as well.

The use of FW suffers from several pretty hypocrticial arguments:

People don't have access to the books unless of course they buy them like any GW product.

They have OP units - alot less OP than ones found in Codex's and used by many objectors......

I would allow and would use it if I had any.

Its not any more overpowered or underpowered than the variety of regular codex stuff, and certainly no worse than what's in the base Escalation book.

 Mr Morden wrote:
The use of FW suffers from several pretty hypocrticial arguments:

People don't have access to the books unless of course they buy them like any GW product.

They have OP units - alot less OP than ones found in Codex's and used by many objectors......

Yeah, and often the FW stuff are actually MORE balanced for their cost. The tau flyers are.... well they're junk to put it politely. The barracuda however is good, but it is priced well. It's not OP but it's not under-powered.

Well I also don't find Forgeworld books to browse through at my local game store, and harder time finding reviews on the FW books so I know if I'd like to invest in it.

And there are a few things that I still think are rather abusive. I have a personal grudge against Beast Hunter shells, so it might just be personal bias. I still think that Forgeworld focuses too much on a few armies and just leaves others in the dust.

I generally don't mind FW stuff or lists, it generally can be fun and something new. I don't really use FW though, since they are very limited on what they offer my army personally. If they ever came up with approved (ie 'fixed') rules for the Heavy Riptide, or actually made vehicle upgrades worth taking I'd consider it.

I don't mind playing against FW stuff on a case by case basis. Blanket acceptance of everything FW ever released? No thanks.

Also, could someone at FW PLEASE take a couple of hours and sort out which version of the rules for a certain unit is the current one and list that out in a FAQ?

I love Forgeworld. I've been collecting a Red Scorpions marine army for some time now, and I'm also building them into a HH Legion army, as well (they're the Red Scorpions chapter of an as-yet-undecided Legion ).
Sure, Forgeworld has some good stuff, but no better than any of the stuff we've already seen from the Codexes.

I think the greatest hurdle for Forgeworld acceptance is simply ignorance. People don't know the rules (it doesn't help that the books are expensive, and can only be ordered online with even more expensive overseas shipping). People see some of the crazier experimental rules (like the R'Varna's first iteration) and assume all FW is like that. Even after the R'Varna's rules got toned down, people still kept complaining about its original version since they didn't bother to check the updated rules. There are people still, to this day, who believe a dreadnought can assault from a Lucius droppod on the turn it arrives, despite that rule being changed, what, almost two years ago? Or, take the HH Legion Moritat, for example. The FAQs nerfed it (can't benefit from Prescience), so it is nowhere near as good as it used to be, but people still argue against the model blissfully unaware of the updated FAQs. Ignorance, again.

People tend to go by word of mouth more than anything. They read on a forum or hear from a friend about some nasty experience with a FW model, and that prejudices their entire outlook on FW. My first game with my Spartan? It managed to be tough as nails and survive all shooting until Turn 4 as my opponent commented about how tough it was. But it was, ultimately, no tougher than any normal Land Raider, as it exploded on Hull Point #4, the same time a normal LR would have died, and he accepted it after I explained that. And the second time I used my Spartan? I rolled a 1 for my difficult terrain test on Turn 1.

The single biggest thing FW could do to create greater acceptance is to embrace digital distribution. I would still buy the big hardcovers for reading, but dammit, I want a portable copy on my Kindle for gaming purposes.

I love forgeworld, and get pissed off when some guy with Tau, Eldar, or both, tells me that its 'not needed' to make my Orks any good.

Way I see it, theres no difference between some of the stupid broken forgeworld junk and the stupid broken vanilla junk. If you think Riptides and 2+ rerollable is fine but forgeworld is not, kindly stop talking to me.

Forgeworld needs to embrace digital distribution, if for no other reason than importing their books to the States is incredibly expensive. I would gladly buy the books that offer rules and fluff and campaigns I'd enjoy, if I didn't have to leap through so many hurdles to get there.

I can't seem to find the most recent rules for Contemptor Dreadnoughts, for example, and as much as I want the latest IA book, getting it for just that one unit I actually own is ridiculous. I don't want to shell out, what, like $100 bucks after shipping? just to run a single unit.

Power wise, Forgeworld stuff that's actually been printed is fine. The experimental stuff, not always. The R'varna's earliest iteration being the latest example. I still think it's a ridiculously powerful model, but no more so than a basic riptide now. Still think they should both be just Sv 3+ and they'd be significantly more balanced but that's an issue for another day. There are a few glaring OP models, but no more so than significant amounts of things from GW proper, and the space marine divergent chapters at least basically require Forgeworld models to be competitive.

Forgeworld is the luxury label of miniature gaming (if there could be ever such a thing) and ergo has the stigma of elitism and inaccessibility.

Personally, it's the only reason I play GW games, their sculpts, communication and support pretty much make GW seem like a different company.

Ruleswise, nothing they produce is as hideously broken as what you can produce with standard codices. Mostly for shock/surprise value, but it wears off because there are ways to deal with everything FW produces.

Forge World tends to produce overpriced (points-wise) fluffy models rather than horrible cheese; the rules that have up and broken the game since I've started playing have all been GW Codexes, nothing out of Imperial Armour.

I love me some Forge World. It's kind of a pain in the rear end to assemble compared to regular GW kits, but the models are amazing looking. I really love their Tau stuff even though it's a bit limited. In fact, I have a half painted Barracuda and a partially assembled squad of XV9s sitting next to me on my desk right now.

I absolutely love FW and have myself bought a Gauss Sentry Pylon, a Tomb Stalker, a Tessaract Ark and have one Death Ray Sentry Pylon somewhere on its way.

The Tomb Stalker rarely actually gets to the enemy, but I love his overpriced carapace all the same, the Sentry Pylon seems to work more as a terror weapon and fire magnet than as an actual weapons platform as it rarely actually kills anything (though that one time I got crazy lucky with it and popped a Land Raider on turn one), the Tessaract Ark worked very well the first time I tried it, but for 250 points it damn well better (telling people it costs like a Land Raider shuts most naysayers up real quick )...

If my opponent really has that big of an issue with FW I can always switch to a TC'tan+Wraithstar+Bakery list and play pure GW.*


*not really, I'm not TFG...

Some nice models.
Some badly designed and cast models.

Rules: About the same level as the rest of 40k. Wouldn't drip my crack sweat on 'em.

 chromedog wrote:
Wouldn't drip my crack sweat on 'em.

Now there's a saying I have never heard.

Nor do I think I'd ever want to again.

FW is great aside from the pricing. Most of their stuff is well balanced or underpowered, but generally very fluffy, though done from more of a technical/historical perspective than the more "tales of legend" perspective GW writes their stuff in.

Most people who have a real beef with FW rules generally are either working under a misconception about FW bred from ignorance (either they heard something from a guy who's friend saw it at a place once like 2 editions ago, or someone outright cheated when using an FW unit), or happened to play against a TFG abusing one of the very small handful of overdone FW units (most of which have been hammered in the last 18 months into a more reasonable form or uselessness).

Actually, from a price perspective, they're cheaper now relative to normal GW stuff than ever before (my DKoK Grenadiers are cheaper than Eldar Dire Avengers) in many respects.

I allow it, I use it. Some of the rules are kind of overpowered. (Sevrin Loth, Space Sharks.)

Allow it, use it. It's part of the game, just like anything else GW publishes. You might as well make the same poll about C:SM.

 Blacksails wrote:
I would allow and would use it if I had any.

Its not any more overpowered or underpowered than the variety of regular codex stuff, and certainly no worse than what's in the base Escalation book.

If your worse it escalation with its cheap 4xD template shoting eldar titan , then I don't know what could be called good.


FW is not played here. Shops don't sell it , so they don't support it for events . People don't like FW stuff , because the only units that would get taken would be the realy OP ones . It also creates a strange imbalance between armies when some armies get a lot of good FW units , while others have are lucky , if they get few . An important factor is also the cost , there are few people who have the money to buy a normal army and a FW army/ or ally force and no one wants to get whooped every time just , because their opponents have the cash to buy FW models .

I don't have any actual experiance against them so can't say one way or the other.

Also not easy to get a hold of them. Before they use to be so expensive, now GW made them the same price since anything GW 40K is almost the same price as FW now.

Just buy them to build and paint, haven't used any in a battle yet. Although I do purchase the books for lore/reference/etc. I suppose in the event of use in a game, I also have the updated rules.

Ha yeah, helldrakes are fine, but you start with giant chaos spawn you are getting into OP territory...

Imagine if Riptides were FW....

Makumba wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I would allow and would use it if I had any.

Its not any more overpowered or underpowered than the variety of regular codex stuff, and certainly no worse than what's in the base Escalation book.

If your worse it escalation with its cheap 4xD template shoting eldar titan , then I don't know what could be called good.


FW is not played here. Shops don't sell it , so they don't support it for events . People don't like FW stuff , because the only units that would get taken would be the realy OP ones .

Having played in events and locales where FW isn't an issue, this is no more true than it is with codex books. I don't know why people think FW will only ever be used to powergame...

It also creates a strange imbalance between armies when some armies get a lot of good FW units , while others have are lucky , if they get few

Again, no different than codex armies, and large swathes of many FW models are either simply alternate models, for very specific subfactions for use in their own list, or aren't really going to see a normal game (i.e. IG Atlas tanks).

An important factor is also the cost , there are few people who have the money to buy a normal army and a FW army/ or ally force and no one wants to get whooped every time just , because their opponents have the cash to buy FW models .

This is operating under two completely unfounded assumptions.


First, is that FW stuff is more powerful than other stuff, which simply isn't true. FW is not a "pay to win" thing, at least not any moreso than a new codex, new supplement, etc, it's just a greater fleshed out 40k universe. If you're running an actual FW army list especially, you're usually better off with just the straight codex in terms of raw power.

Second, is that FW is hideously more expensive than normal GW stuff. In some cases FW stuff is still very expensive, but not all. For individual character models, FW and GW pricing is largely identical at this point. As noted earlier, Death Korps Grenadier models are cheaper than plastic Dire Avengers.

But an Iron Hands self regenerating uber Land Raider immune to melta is a problem at 1500 pts . Same with turbo laster armed titans that clock under 800pts . People who have re make their armies to deal with FW stuff , and it would start an arms race that most wouldn't be able to keep one . Buying a 1500pts army is one thing , buying that and a titan or anti defense or ally to deal with them makes the army cost twice as much . I would rather play an eldar army every three days , then one with a titan , where a guy just removes 3-4 tanks from my army per turn .

First, is that FW stuff is more powerful than other stuff, which simply isn't true.

How many units in the IG codex have D class weapons ?

Having played in events and locales where FW isn't an issue, this is no more true than it is with codex books. I don't know why people think FW will only ever be used to powergame...

Am sorry are you trying to teach me , how the game is played here and that I am wrong that FW is totaly supported in Poland , realy ? And what you call power gaming is the way all games , no matter what system are played here .

Again, no different than codex armies, and large swathes of many FW models are either simply alternate models, for very specific subfactions for use in their own list, or aren't really going to see a normal game (i.e. IG Atlas tanks).

I have never seen anyone want to buy FW models ,because of altternate models , But I have heard ton of people talking about the pre nerf uber Riptide, DKoK mortars , Saber Weapon platforms , pre nerf lucius pods etc I think your "normal" and normal here are very different .

First, is that FW stuff is more powerful than other stuff, which simply isn't true. FW is not a "pay to win" thing, at least not any moreso than a new codex, new supplement, etc, it's just a greater fleshed out 40k universe. If you're running an actual FW army list especially, you're usually better off with just the straight codex in terms of raw power.

It is pay to win here . Everyone with cash can go in to a store and buy the riptides , serpents etc At least technicly , because normaly GW sends always too few of those and it is hard to build an army from scratch . But even If I would have the money to buy saber weapon platforms ,which are clearly superior to hvy weapon teams , I would have to order a FW book and have a bank account with a credit card and buy the stuff online , because no store here sells FW stuff . Not even the single GW store we have.

Second, is that FW is hideously more expensive than normal GW stuff. In some cases FW stuff is still very expensive, but not all. For individual character models, FW and GW pricing is largely identical at this point. As noted earlier, Death Korps Grenadier models are cheaper than plastic Dire Avengers.

Ergo no one buys the models he can get cheaper . So what is left are the good units , which you can't get in a store or counts as . Let me check how much I would have to send on sabers .
9 sabers 22,50 each is 202,50 . The vat on toys in Poland is 23% , which also happens to be the the highest vat in EU , so if I ordered the sabers from FW I would have to pay the difference between UK and Polish vat . Am still under 250 pounds bought so I have to pay for delivery . Because the whole thing now costs like 1/2 an avarge wage here , so the box will be opened by cutoms to check what is inside and if they find the models fancy they can slap a 200% luxury product special tax on it . But lets say that doesn't happen . for the cost of 9 sabers one can get a whole Warmachine army or WFB oger army. And not just 9 models that don't even make up the core of a list . So to me , that seems very pricy .

Love it. Most of the reason I still like WH40K.

Their books are top class. The models look great.

The rules tend to be considerably under the GW bar of power with only a handful of models that compete with the GW top. The big thing FW does is open up more options. They take armies that poor codex balance or age has left out in the cold and gives them at least some of what they need. Like AA for the DA codex.

I have found that FW has made me a more fluffy player as I buy models from them that look good and once I spend all that time painting them I want to play them. Therefore you get armies of grenadiers, thunderers, and deathriders from me which frankly take a perfect game from me to match your average 2 riptide list.

Unpleasant players have no need to spend more money on FW to do their thing. They can do it with the basic dexs and will often proxy cheap alternatives rather than actually buy the 3 riptides, etc. they need to do it.

 Elgrun wrote:
Ha yeah, helldrakes are fine, but you start with giant chaos spawn you are getting into OP territory...

Imagine if Riptides were FW....

They would look amazing and probably cost 250 or be 0-2 to represent their rarity because FWs rule are mostly fluff based. And they would probably cost twice as much.

Makumba wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I would allow and would use it if I had any.

Its not any more overpowered or underpowered than the variety of regular codex stuff, and certainly no worse than what's in the base Escalation book.

If your worse it escalation with its cheap 4xD template shoting eldar titan , then I don't know what could be called good.


FW is not played here. Shops don't sell it , so they don't support it for events . People don't like FW stuff , because the only units that would get taken would be the realy OP ones . It also creates a strange imbalance between armies when some armies get a lot of good FW units , while others have are lucky , if they get few . An important factor is also the cost , there are few people who have the money to buy a normal army and a FW army/ or ally force and no one wants to get whooped every time just , because their opponents have the cash to buy FW models .

If event organizers in your area don't allow FW because they don't sell it then they're greedy, pure and simple. My FLGS has no issue with FW and some of their store armies actually have FW models.

Also, it seems to me like you and the local players in your area are woefully misinformed about what FW models actually are... Most of FW's 40K models are supplements to existing codices, alternative models for existing codex entries or models for codex entries that have no models on the "regular" GW product line, and most of the original FW models are (pointswise) priced appropriately or overcosted for what they deliver.

There are a select few overpowered FW models, none of which are anywhere near as bad as the kind of cheese you can pull out of the Eldar, Tau or Daemons codices.

As for the claim that only the overpowered models would be bought, that claim is utterly baseless from my experience- a lot of people from the local gaming scene have FW models and yet I've never so much as glimpsed any of the models I always see people in forum complaining about. From my experience people buy FW for variety, superior quality, fluff, coolness factor and flexibility in listbuilding.

And by the way, you seem to have misunderstood Blacksails' meaning- he wasn't saying that FW models were as bad as Escalation, he was saying that nothing in FW is worse than what already exists in the regular codices and that Escalation is even worse than the codices are.

 Galorian wrote:


And by the way, you seem to have misunderstood Blacksails' meaning- he wasn't saying that FW models were as bad as Escalation, he was saying that nothing in FW is worse than what already exists in the regular codices and that Escalation is even worse than the codices are.

Thanks for clarifying. I imagine there's a bit of a language barrier with some sayings like that.

I voted Allow & Use but it's totally context dependent imo.

Take the Orks. So far my FW purchases have been some Kommandos via the upgrade kit and a Kill Bursta to work on as I just love the big slab sided blocky monster tank. It just fits so well. In the future I'd also like to get a Mega Dread, a couple of Supa Kannons and a Flakk Gun eventually. I'd have said a Battlefortress as well but they took it down a month or two back (hoping for a new one from them or GW).

Now as I see it the Kommandos should always be allowed. They're just alternate sculpts of models in the Codex. Ditto anyone using the FW Biker Warboss model as either a standard Biker Boss or Wazdakka, as per a recent thread on it. You're not looking to gain any advantage using FW rules, just using what are very cool models they make instead of either the normal models or converting/scratch-building.

The other stuff I listed above where there are clear rules implications tho...yes I'd always look to get agreement on their use beforehand. Particularly the Bursta for obvious Super-Heavy & D-Weapon reasons. I'd not look to use them all in every game anyway, just the ability to change things up and have varying scales of battles, from small skirmishes of different types, through the odd Escalation setup, right up to the full blown 'bring every model you have' all-day Apocalypse craziness. Quite happy to leave them at home.

As for the power level...yes they definitely add considerably to the Ork capabilities, but I don't think they're too bad considering the baseline power of my planned army, which is at least presently FAR from optimal. Even the Bursta's D-Weapon isn't exactly long ranged and for the points cost, it's hardly invincible is it?