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When you run Nidzilla from time to time you learn to dread massed Poison shots.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary, at 36'' away or less. There by starting on the board 12 '' in, moving 12'' in he movement phase and shooting 18'' means that the bikers on the first turn have an effective range of 42 inches

Sure, there was an assumption that you wouldn't have to move to shoot the splinter cannons. Given that the bikes need to close to 18" to shoot (or, realistically, 6"), I didn't think it would be too difficult to assume that splinter cannons would be in range already when it came time to shoot them.

And yeah, bikes can race forward and shoot down DE paper kites, but that counts for everything DE, not just splinter weapons.

Plus, if you want to talk about this relative to time, then take into account that sometimes the DE player will go first. In this case, yes, they put out fewer shots, but they will also get to kill bikes before the bikes can attack them, so they're actually better off over all.

Why is it so important to convince him before-hand??

Just play him and show him, and with all the power you can muster resist the desire to say; "I told you so!!". Let him come to that realization himself.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Why is it so important to convince him before-hand??

Just play him and show him, and with all the power you can muster resist the desire to say; "I told you so!!". Let him come to that realization himself.

That was my initial plan... I keep writing you'll see. And he's just texting back with things like, yea your weapons don't matter because at the end of the day I Still have a 3+ save.

SM Bikes against DE? Is he being silly?
Bikers don't stand a chance against DE. They are not fast enough and lack dakka.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

cammy wrote:

Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary,

For full shots the venom doesn't have to be stationary - if fires as heavy 6 regardless and can move up to 12 and still fire both cannons. If the passengers want to shoot at full BS skill though it can only move 6"

Yup. Alex should learn his codex a little better.

Or maybe read my posts in context? It usually makes more sense. ''Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary, at 36'' away or less'' in response to ''A min-sized splinterborn in venom costs 121 points, and puts out a maximum of 26 shots.'' then you should be able to infer that to FULL amount of shots also includes the 2 trueborn with splinter cannons, splinter cannons which are HEAVY 6 or Asssault 4, meaning to get te FULL amount of shots you have to stay still.


''This is simply untrue, Just castle and shoot bikes on your board edge, when he gets close, turbo boost to his board edge. It's not rocket science. Also, even in dawn of war, the deployment edges are 48" Away from each other. If you sit on your own edge he won't have range turn 1...''

I question how you are in range while the bikes are not? As I have earlier stated, even with nightshields bikes have an effective range of 42'' turn 1 putting them squarely ahead of most dark eldar weaponry unless the splinter boat moves more then 6'', meaning the people inside the boat will snap fire. Yes, of course their are venoms with occupants who have no shooting worth noting such as Wracks who technically out range the bikes by 6'', but as I said earlier they WILL be in range next turn. Castling up means little. Either you get first turn and deploy in range to shoot first turn, or the white scar player goes first and denies you a turn of shooting by turbo boosting, making use of the LOS-Blocking terrain most boards have, or he can simply make you go first, giving his bikes run of the objectives last turn. As for turbo boosting you do realize that you still will be range right? Since you cannot turbo boost back wards you have to boost to one side, the other or straight over. You have a 30'' Turbo boost, they have a 30 '' range. You do the math. It's not rocket science.

As to ''kissing up'' (Is that a metaphor?) it was merely me acknowledging how his post gave a thought out response to an effective unit, as with his other posts which do understand my point of view yet provide a opposing opinion. Something you appear adamant not to do.

I know my codex just fine thank you, is it the fact I am taking the Space Marine codex into account as well as the Dark Eldar one that is confusing?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

cammy wrote:

Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary,

For full shots the venom doesn't have to be stationary - if fires as heavy 6 regardless and can move up to 12 and still fire both cannons. If the passengers want to shoot at full BS skill though it can only move 6"

Yup. Alex should learn his codex a little better.

Or maybe read my posts in context? It usually makes more sense. ''Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary, at 36'' away or less'' in response to ''A min-sized splinterborn in venom costs 121 points, and puts out a maximum of 26 shots.'' then you should be able to infer that to FULL amount of shots also includes the 2 trueborn with splinter cannons, splinter cannons which are HEAVY 6 or Asssault 4, meaning to get te FULL amount of shots you have to stay still.


''This is simply untrue, Just castle and shoot bikes on your board edge, when he gets close, turbo boost to his board edge. It's not rocket science. Also, even in dawn of war, the deployment edges are 48" Away from each other. If you sit on your own edge he won't have range turn 1...''

I question how you are in range while the bikes are not? As I have earlier stated, even with nightshields bikes have an effective range of 42'' turn 1 putting them squarely ahead of most dark eldar weaponry unless the splinter boat moves more then 6'', meaning the people inside the boat will snap fire. Yes, of course their are venoms with occupants who have no shooting worth noting such as Wracks who technically out range the bikes by 6'', but as I said earlier they WILL be in range next turn. Castling up means little. Either you get first turn and deploy in range to shoot first turn, or the white scar player goes first and denies you a turn of shooting by turbo boosting, making use of the LOS-Blocking terrain most boards have, or he can simply make you go first, giving his bikes run of the objectives last turn. As for turbo boosting you do realize that you still will be range right? Since you cannot turbo boost back wards you have to boost to one side, the other or straight over. You have a 30'' Turbo boost, they have a 30 '' range. You do the math. It's not rocket science.

As to ''kissing up'' (Is that a metaphor?) it was merely me acknowledging how his post gave a thought out response to an effective unit, as with his other posts which do understand my point of view yet provide a opposing opinion. Something you appear adamant not to do.

I know my codex just fine thank you, is it the fact I am taking the Space Marine codex into account as well as the Dark Eldar one that is confusing?

Okay, I'll try to make this easy for ya... So if I'm deployed on my board edge if he's going first if he deploys 12", then moves 12" then fires 18" (with nightshields) the max range he's getting is 42 inches with str 4 bolters... If I'm going first, I'm deploying forward more and lighting his bikes up before he shoots turn 1. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about this. Unless he seizes, he's not shooting my boats turn one, unless I Fire at him first.

Got it now bud?

He will if he brought some 48" guns But the bikers, probably not.

Martel732 wrote:
He will if he brought some 48" guns But the bikers, probably not.

Well let's not forget the nightshields, brings the 48" range down to 42" unless they move. As this is a discussion of splinter weapons.

Also, this was mainly an argument against the bikes, not the likes of say, triple las preds or krakk missles. The sort of stuff I'm trying to convince my buddy to bring.

Tell your buddy to build a TAC list and not list tailor.That teaches bad habits for when you face an unknown opponent.

Ask him what happens if the DE guy shows up with a non-DE list?

You can turbo boost backwards, actually you can not move your model and still turbo boost...anyways..

Bikes do not really have a 42" threat range.

A bike player will get some models behind cover, and some may be out of LoS, but not all. Maybe some of the dark eldar weapons wont be in range. Most likely the converse will also be true where some of the bikes weapons will not be in range.

if the Bikes move up 12" and shoot, they will probably be firing at max range for bolters/plasma/grav. if they have melta they are SoL. Heavy bolters/MM attack bikes, yeah.

Even so most bike squads are what 7-10 models with 2 plasma guns, lets imagine you get 8 bikers, all 8 in range. You get 2 plasma shots and 6 bolter shots. Lets say you have 4 of these units, thats probably close to 1200 points without any character upgrades? (feel free to correct that)

In this imaginary world you have all your models in range to fire, so you get 4x2 plasma shots [8] and 4x6 bolter shots [24]

You will probably score 5 plasma hits, and 16 bolter shots at BS4. Approximations. Of 16 bolter shots you are looking at 2-3 glances, and the 5 plasma hits are looking at 2 pens and 2 glances, maybe 1 less. but lets be generous. so 2 pens 4 glances. Your opponent may have flickerfields, or cover so you are most likely doing 1 pen 3 glances or 2 pens 2 glances or some such.

In other words the 4 man bike squad alpha strike is looking at average 1-2 venoms killed, or 1 raider killed and something hurt. Thats 32 bikes firing, from outside rapid fire. Im not even including difficult terrain tests if there are any to take, and gets hot from plasma.

If the dark eldar player has Night Shields, and sits on their edge the bikes will be out of range with all of their 24" weapons.

Of course theory hammer happens in a vaccum of our imaginations, which is pretty amorphous and scenery less.

blaktoof wrote:
You can turbo boost backwards, actually you can not move your model and still turbo boost...anyways..

Bikes do not really have a 42" threat range.

A bike player will get some models behind cover, and some may be out of LoS, but not all. Maybe some of the dark eldar weapons wont be in range. Most likely the converse will also be true where some of the bikes weapons will not be in range.

if the Bikes move up 12" and shoot, they will probably be firing at max range for bolters/plasma/grav. if they have melta they are SoL. Heavy bolters/MM attack bikes, yeah.

Even so most bike squads are what 7-10 models with 2 plasma guns, lets imagine you get 8 bikers, all 8 in range. You get 2 plasma shots and 6 bolter shots. Lets say you have 4 of these units, thats probably close to 1200 points without any character upgrades? (feel free to correct that)

In this imaginary world you have all your models in range to fire, so you get 4x2 plasma shots [8] and 4x6 bolter shots [24]

You will probably score 5 plasma hits, and 16 bolter shots at BS4. Approximations. Of 16 bolter shots you are looking at 2-3 glances, and the 5 plasma hits are looking at 2 pens and 2 glances, maybe 1 less. but lets be generous. so 2 pens 4 glances. Your opponent may have flickerfields, or cover so you are most likely doing 1 pen 3 glances or 2 pens 2 glances or some such.

In other words the 4 man bike squad alpha strike is looking at average 1-2 venoms killed, or 1 raider killed and something hurt. Thats 32 bikes firing, from outside rapid fire. Im not even including difficult terrain tests if there are any to take, and gets hot from plasma.

If the dark eldar player has Night Shields, and sits on their edge the bikes will be out of range with all of their 24" weapons.

Of course theory hammer happens in a vaccum of our imaginations, which is pretty amorphous and scenery less.

Ladies and gents, we have another person who knows what's up. Thank you sir. Good post!

You are on the board edge then only your Venoms and Ravagers can shoot effectively due to passengers snap firing, so that's a turn where your shooting isn't as effective as it could be, all the while he will be in range to shoot you at full capacity, I would say that is a win for the bikers. Or he could simply turbo boost. If you go first he can hug board edge as well. This is alpha strike with survivability vs alpha strike with more dakka. It's not as clear cut as you say.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You are on the board edge then only your Venoms and Ravagers can shoot effectively due to passengers snap firing, so that's a turn where your shooting isn't as effective as it could be, all the while he will be in range to shoot you at full capacity, I would say that is a win for the bikers.

No no, if DE is going first we're deploying further up, if going second we're on the board edge, and the bikers a moving up without being able to fire. Therefore, either way, we're shooting first. That's a win for DE.


I think your silly pride is keeping you the only one siding with the bikers here. If you'd like to lie and say you're correct for the sake of your pride, you made need a councelor...

This whole conversation is adorable. I'm the "friend" in question here. Yup, gonna run some white scar bikers. Hell, even may run them with a tooled up CM and Khan?

If I deploy at my max line, scout 12", move 12", and fire 18", that's what, 54" threat range, turn one. You go first, good!

I'm still getting 3+ armor against shots, I'm still tanning them on a 2+ 3++ EW CM, I'm gonna charge first turn, and I'm gonna kill some boats.

Lets keep discussing though, how amazing splinter fire is, as though T5 is the REASON you run bikes. I'm intrigued.

Fire 100 shots, hit with 66, wound with 33, fail 11 3+. 11 dead models on 100 shots, that is horrifically terrifying.

Not to mention the las cannons shooting, or any deep striking melta ... Nope. I should just stay home cuz clearly I already lost.

Mike94656 wrote:
This whole conversation is adorable. I'm the "friend" in question here. Yup, gonna run some white scar bikers. Hell, even may run them with a tooled up CM and Khan?

If I deploy at my max line, scout 12", move 12", and fire 18", that's what, 54" threat range, turn one. You go first, good!

I'm still getting 3+ armor against shots, I'm still tanning them on a 2+ 3++ EW CM, I'm gonna charge first turn, and I'm gonna kill some boats.

Lets keep discussing though, how amazing splinter fire is, as though T5 is the REASON you run bikes. I'm intrigued.

Fire 100 shots, hit with 66, wound with 33, fail 11 3+. 11 dead models on 100 shots, that is horrifically terrifying.

Not to mention the las cannons shooting, or any deep striking melta ... Nope. I should just stay home cuz clearly I already lost.

I'll show ya on the table brah!

I think the commentary that splinter weapons are very effective against bikes still holds true.

Weapons that wound on a fixed value become even better the higher the toughness the model they are firing at and the more points they are worth. Which was the main point of this discussion.

You will be getting 3+ armor versus the splinter weapons, but I somehow doubt the Dark eldar player is running only venoms and splinter rifles.

Also you can't charge first turn if you scout...anyways

And for what its worth the dark eldar do have multiple ways to ignore EW but thats another matter in its entirety.

I am sure you will kill plenty of things regardless

Sounds like you two will have a fun game, remember the most important rule is to have fun

blaktoof wrote:
I think the commentary that splinter weapons are very effective against bikes still holds true.

Weapons that wound on a fixed value become even better the higher the toughness the model they are firing at and the more points they are worth. Which was the main point of this discussion.

You will be getting 3+ armor versus the splinter weapons, but I somehow doubt the Dark eldar player is running only venoms and splinter rifles.

Also you can't charge first turn if you scout...anyways

And for what its worth the dark eldar do have multiple ways to ignore EW but thats another matter in its entirety.

I am sure you will kill plenty of things regardless

Sounds like you two will have a fun game, remember the most important rule is to have fun

We've decided to cancel the game and have a fist fight instead!

Also, fun fact, you can charge first turn if you performed a scout move as long as you're going 2nd..

I agree, if I was playing say Tyranids, who rely on their toughness as their survival tool, splinter weapons destroy them.

If you're thinking that being T5 is the reason bikes from white scars are good, you are sadly mistaken.

But the jink save doesn't help either. And servo skulls can prevent the scout.

Mike94656 wrote:
This whole conversation is adorable. I'm the "friend" in question here. Yup, gonna run some white scar bikers. Hell, even may run them with a tooled up CM and Khan?

If I deploy at my max line, scout 12", move 12", and fire 18", that's what, 54" threat range, turn one. You go first, good!

I'm still getting 3+ armor against shots, I'm still tanning them on a 2+ 3++ EW CM, I'm gonna charge first turn, and I'm gonna kill some boats.

Lets keep discussing though, how amazing splinter fire is, as though T5 is the REASON you run bikes. I'm intrigued.

Fire 100 shots, hit with 66, wound with 33, fail 11 3+. 11 dead models on 100 shots, that is horrifically terrifying.

Not to mention the las cannons shooting, or any deep striking melta ... Nope. I should just stay home cuz clearly I already lost.

So I wasn't completely barking up the wrong tree? I don't play White Scars so I don't think I argued them as well as they deserved. I was also forgetting about scouting, for some reason I thought that was only Raven Wing.

White scars are very good, but their primary advantages to me are driving through terrain and against quality fire. Against mass fire, they are no better than any other biker.

Against mass fire they're a typical biker, yeah.

If you're relying on your bikes to do the heavy lifting for you in a white scars list, you're doing it wrong. That's what your devs/centurions are there for. Not to mentionyour predators.

Then, the beloved storm talon. I run two. They are wrecking machines in their own right and comically cheap. If you're shooting your lances at them, I feel like I've already won.

Mike94656 wrote:If I deploy at my max line, scout 12", move 12", and fire 18", that's what, 54" threat range, turn one. You go first, good!

Sure, but to what end? At absolute best, the bikes are destroying A cardboard box before getting hideously gunned down. Not nothing, of course, but that's a pretty bad trade to give up a couple hundred points of bikes for a 60 point raider.

The problem is that bikes are way more expensive than marines, and the only thing you get is mobility. This may be worth it most of the time, but against DE, you're not going to be faster or have better force concentration. Bringing bikes against DE is like bringing lascannons against a horde army. Not that they're not worth taking in general, or that they're completely useless, but it's definitely going to be a mismatch.

Because the one thing that bikes really have going for them is to be fast enough so that they can dance around and cause casualties while taking fewer in return by skirting just at the limit of range. There's no way that you're damaging DE, though, without suffering return fire.

Mike94656 wrote:I'm still getting 3+ armor against shots

Have you never played against an army that handles marines without Ap1-3 weapons?

10 bikers, as you say, requires 60 hits to wipe them out in a single go. That sounds like a lot until you realise that DE are all BS4, and have access to twin-linking in some cases. That basic troops choice I mentioned before puts down 12, which is already a quarter of what you need to wipe out a bike squad in a SINGLE VOLLEY. Bike squads, not unlike most other things in 40k, don't stay at full strength until they're dead. Even if they aren't offed in a single shot, once you lose half your numbers, now you have half as many krak grenades and you're doing half as much damage, which means your opponent really gets to drill things in on the turn after.

Also, to bring things out more generally, DE armies usually aren't JUST splinter weapons. If you're intent on charging into close combat (which might see you with huge piles of TL overwatch, as everything is open-topped), then you're going to have to deal with splinter weapons seriously hurting a squad, and then things like wyches, wracks or archons countercharging. Last I checked, space marine bikes were pretty much the same as regular tac marines in close combat. That is to say, not very good at it. Meanwhile, if you skitter around the edges and try to shoot stuff, you have the problem of getting promptly whittled down by splinter fire because you can't shoot them without them shooting you.

And even then, once again, let's look at the best case scenario. You're talking about using bolters to blow up vehicles, and those you do manage to take down are practically free they're so cheap. Spending hundreds of points on bike squads so that you can blow up a few venoms sounds almost like tarpitting, except in the shooting phase.

The only real things bikes have going for them is that at least they'll have a chance to do something, even if it is just for one turn, but once your opponent makes a C-shape with his skimmer transports, that's the point when they die.

Weight of wounds is THE way to kill marines in 6th ed. Well, that and ion accelerators.

It is with noting, quite unfairly I will say, in all of these assessments, you're leveraging the entire DE force against the bike squads. Those squads, which clock in at 135 points a piece.

Let us not pretend for a moment that this isn't some grotesquely mismatched game points wise. It isn't 500 vs 2000. There are plenty of other things at hand for the DE to deal with alongside the bikes.

In the game, if I'm fielding say, 2 storm talons, LC/ML centurions, predators, razorbacks, and whatever else, now target priority becomes troubling. So, yes, 2000 points of DE splinter fire will decimate 500 points of white scar bikes.

The bigger question, would 500 of DE splinter be as denaturing and in the quantity you say? Probably not. Would the bikes win in that? Maybe? They get S5 HoW auto hits, those can hurt on the charge. They have grenades for popping tanks.

So how about instead of leveraging the ENTIRE DE force against a small portion of the army, we look at the bigger picture and realize that if you are only shooting the bikes, you'll lose.

The bikes aren't the biggest threat in the list, but you can treat them like they are and that's fine by me.

I know I've stayed a bit from the basic topic of DE splinter weapons vs white scar bikes. But lets be fair, in all of your assessments, your not firing 435 points worth of DE at them are you? Cuz that's the bike cost.

" 2 storm talons, LC/ML centurions, predators, razorbacks, and whatever else, now target priority becomes troubling."

Not really. Splinter weapons don't affect most of those units. Such is the curse of a hybrid list.

But any fliers don't show up until at least turn two. Bad luck sees them in on turn 4.

Centurions hurt, but they don't like dark light weaponry which is all S8 AP2.

The thing about fighting DE is that multi-shot weapons of any strength are your go to weapons. Single shot weapons are just not worth it due to Jink/flickerfields or that most of our guys are only 12 or so points or less. Heck the ultimate multishot weapon that shows up on bikes now-a-days is the grav cannon. Which against DE is almost pointless. And lets be real here, in a TAC list what are you really going to put on your bikes? I'd bet out of 4 units of bikes a minimum of two are full grav weaponry.

DE are the ultimate monkey wrench army, because everything you need to fight Tau, other marines, Necrons, etc. really looses it whole sale effectiveness against DE.

Now this situation is a bit differnt as each player knows what they will be fighting and are for the most part list tailoring. But you take a typical White Scars tourniment list and run into a typical DE tourniment list and I'll but money on the DE.

Their weapons and vehicles negate a biker heavy armies biggest strengths in mobility and toughness. They also florish a bit better in that biker heavy armies usually have lower model counts and as such usually fewer over all firepower output. Its hard to win a war of attrition when most DE fights are decided by turn 2.

Mike94656 wrote:But lets be fair, in all of your assessments, your not firing 435 points worth of DE at them are you? Cuz that's the bike cost.

I don't have a copy of the new SM codex. How many bikes do you get for 435 points?

The points would buy you three 5 man bike squads, each with two special weapons. Grav/plasma and such are all equally costed on them, I believe.

So yeah, 15 bodies for the points. 6 special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I lied, upon double checking, a 5 man unit with two specials is 135 points per unit. So, 405 points total.