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It's funny, I'm having a debate with my friend, and he doesn't think 5+ venoms and 4 raiders with splinter cannons and splinter racks will give his white scar bikers some trouble... I tried explaining how if splinter weapons shred through plague marines, they'll shred through bikes...

It will take him one game to learn that mass splinter weapons against a Toughness based army will wreck him

 conker249 wrote:
It will take him one game to learn that mass splinter weapons against a Toughness based army will wreck him

Thank you, I tried explaining this, but he just won't hear it...

That's silly.

Against tough stuff, S=T, and against stuff where T=3 or worse, you get to take advantage of Ap5.

Then allow him to watch buckets of dice roll.

3 wracks, one venom x6.

36-24 inches will be quite illuminating.

I play Tau and I'm jealous of how much dakka Dark Eldar can pump out with lots of venoms. I mean there is an issue of quality vs quantity...but I'm not used to being out dakka`ed.

 Ailaros wrote:
That's silly.

Against tough stuff, S=T, and against stuff where T=3 or worse, you get to take advantage of Ap5.

Exactly my argument. It's pretty amazing that against wraithknights my splinter weapons are str 8. I tried telling him that with space marines bikes probably aren't his best choices against me, but he just won't hear it. I'm not being rude or disrespectful about it... There's just some things that are better against some things than others. Oh well...

Not everyone listens to well-reasoned arguments. He might need to learn this particular lesson the hard way.

 Ailaros wrote:
Not everyone listens to well-reasoned arguments. He might need to learn this particular lesson the hard way.

Ya know Ailaros, it's not every day we come to an accord... But today is one of those! I think I may purchase a lottery ticket... lol

Maybe he wasn't refuting the fact that splinters would be effective against him, maybe he was refuting that they would give him great problems. Bikers are fast, fast enough to negate the DE movement advantage. Bikes are killy, with access to enough heavy weapons to blow a Raider or Venom out of the Sky (Krak Grenades and Relentless Plasma Guns see to that) and have access to really, really tanky heroes to tank all of that fire. He doesn't care if you wound on 4's, you still have to get through that Chapter Master with a 2+ save and 4 wounds. Good cover saves and having few to no vehicles limit the effectiveness of Dark Lances massively, Dissies are still effective but cover does help.

Sure, respect splinter fire, but against T 3< they are less effective then bolters. But they sure are not the best basic weapon, with pulse rifles being better against infantry and Shurikan catapults being better/same against monstrous Creatures 3+/2+( 9 shots from splinter weapons means 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved. 9 Shuri shots means 6 hits, 1 rending wound). All that fire power counts for very little when your splinter boats explode, 1/2 of your guys die in the flames then get shot with a bunch of twin linked bolters. Yeas, Dark Eldar have an advantage, but not as much of one as you'd like to think.

If marines don't bring a lot of 48" guns, DE are a headache.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Maybe he wasn't refuting the fact that splinters would be effective against him, maybe he was refuting that they would give him great problems. Bikers are fast, fast enough to negate the DE movement advantage. Bikes are killy, with access to enough heavy weapons to blow a Raider or Venom out of the Sky (Krak Grenades and Relentless Plasma Guns see to that) and have access to really, really tanky heroes to tank all of that fire. He doesn't care if you wound on 4's, you still have to get through that Chapter Master with a 2+ save and 4 wounds. Good cover saves and having few to no vehicles limit the effectiveness of Dark Lances massively, Dissies are still effective but cover does help.

Sure, respect splinter fire, but against T 3< they are less effective then bolters. But they sure are not the best basic weapon, with pulse rifles being better against infantry and Shurikan catapults being better/same against monstrous Creatures ( 9 shots from splinter weapons means 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved. 9 Shuri shots means 6 hits, 1 rending wound). All that fire power counts for very little when your splinter boats explode, 1/2 of your guys die in the flames then get shot with a bunch of twin linked bolters. Yeas, Dark Eldar have an advantage, but not as much of one as you'd like to think.

At the end of the day, killing a CM with splinter weapons is just as easy as killing 4 terminators, with our volume of fire, that's not terribly difficult. Not to mention even with a 4+ just against dark lances he's still only saving those 50% of the time and they can make quick work of the CM. My argument wasn't that bikes aren't good, I think bikes are. I just think against dark eldar there's better options out there for space marines. And completely dismissing how good splinter weapons are, because they aren't ap3 or better isn't fair. Also, never was it stated that I said splinter weapons are the best basic weapon on a troop, I merely said, they should be respected. Listing other weapons that are better is irrelevant to the thread.

Well, if you don't list tailor, your marines might be stuck with bikes.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, if you don't list tailor, your marines might be stuck with bikes.

I certainly agree with this, and am against list tailoring. I'm just speaking with regard to splinter weapons being good against bikes, and any T4+ infantry.

And is killing 4 terminators easy for Dark Eldar? mathematically using splinter weapons that means you have to course 24 wounds on a 4+ to force him to roll 4 1's, meaning you have to course 48 hits, which means 64 shots must be fired if my maths isn't terribly off. Is that easy, or more importantly, can you afford to pump that many shots into a unit assuming when he reaches 1 wound he will start LOS'ing and then he will soon be in charge range, ready to Krak grenade your fragile raider to death? He simply won't be taking DL hits unless he is really unlucky, with LOS or if he feels like splashing then the Shield Eternal.

Saying that DL are effective vs bikes is simply wrong, with a low rate of fire and the Marines access to cover saves, that Ravager is killing about 1 and a half marines a turn, good investment? Not so much unless he brings Land Speeders who can hopelessly out range ravagers with missiles. A single unit of 6 Bikers takes 48 shots to kill on Average, those Marines with 2 Plasmas will cause a single Glance/Pen a turn at long range, with a 1/3 chance to explode against a DE Transport. That's not even counting glancing you to death with bolters.

Bikers are hands down one of the best Marine builds out there. Speed, durability and Firepower all in one place. Sure, DE can dish out the Damage, but they simply can't take it. A good biker list will be close enough to assault turn 2/3 and unless you have killed enough then your chances of winning decrease dramatically. Point for Point sure Splinters are great against T5, for the trade off Marines get a 12 inch move and TL boltguns, I would put the trade off firmly on the marines side.

Small arms may or may not be the best against things that are designed to be good against small arms, but that doesn't mean that splinter weapons are bad, or that other models in the squad can't bring other weapons to take care of that.

Saying that splinter weapons are bad against a chapter master is like saying that bolters are bad against vehicles.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
And is killing 4 terminators easy for Dark Eldar? mathematically using splinter weapons that means you have to course 24 wounds on a 4+ to force him to roll 4 1's, meaning you have to course 48 hits, which means 64 shots must be fired if my maths isn't terribly off. Is that easy, or more importantly, can you afford to pump that many shots into a unit assuming when he reaches 1 wound he will start LOS'ing and then he will soon be in charge range, ready to Krak grenade your fragile raider to death? He simply won't be taking DL hits unless he is really unlucky, with LOS or if he feels like splashing then the Shield Eternal.

Saying that DL are effective vs bikes is simply wrong, with a low rate of fire and the Marines access to cover saves, that Ravager is killing about 1 and a half marines a turn, good investment? Not so much unless he brings Land Speeders who can hopelessly out range ravagers with missiles. A single unit of 6 Bikers takes 48 shots to kill on Average, those Marines with 2 Plasmas will cause a single Glance/Pen a turn at long range, with a 1/3 chance to explode against a DE Transport. That's not even counting glancing you to death with bolters.

Bikers are hands down one of the best Marine builds out there. Speed, durability and Firepower all in one place. Sure, DE can dish out the Damage, but they simply can't take it. A good biker list will be close enough to assault turn 2/3 and unless you have killed enough then your chances of winning decrease dramatically. Point for Point sure Splinters are great against T5, for the trade off Marines get a 12 inch move and TL boltguns, I would put the trade off firmly on the marines side.

The most effective way of dealing with termies is quantity of fire. Dark eldar have that, that's a very fundamental thing in 40k alex... Also, you should read what I write thouroughly, I was stating using the dark lances for the CM with a 2+ it's an easy way to knick off a few wounds before you dump out splinter fire. Before you reply, I would recommend reading before posting.

The poison mechanic has somewhat increased utility against bikers, but it's not nearly as devastating as a full Eldar broadside with S6/7.

 Ailaros wrote:
Not everyone listens to well-reasoned arguments. He might need to learn this particular lesson the hard way.

definitely agree with this!

I would like to think I replied adequately by referring to LOS and a Storm Shield as great ways to mitigate DL's. That means if he is using Look Out Sir then he needs to fail a 2+ then a 3+ to take a wound, which I believe lays at around 5%. Saying weight of fire is essential in 40k is irrelevant, I never disputed the fact, what I said is can you muster that much fire while dealing with all the threats presented in the limited time given to you by the advancing bikes. Also, FTR, weight of fire isn't the most effective way of dealing with terminators as luck can always play it's part. The most effective way in my opinion is the ever popular Ion accelerator, Stregth 8 AP 2 Large Blast with possible Ignores cover or better BS seems like a quite effective way to me.

@Ailaros I never said they where explicitly bad. I said that they aren't overly effective vs Toughness 3< and that they are effective against MC's, only matched/beaten by Shurikan weapons due to psudo-rending. Your last sentence seems a bit out of place, it is perfectly reasonable to lead your biker unit with a Chapter Master or Captain with a 2+ save, a tanky hero that is really effective at defending his unit from splinter weaponary. If splinter weapons are effective against him doesn't overly matter, you either have to deal with him some other way (Incubi are not bad at this) or use speed to place shots at places he isn't. It's also rather ironic that TL Bolters are actually quite effective against DE vehicles, Twin Linked and relentless meaning a turn spent in rapid fire range of a biker squad will usually end in a few glances.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I would like to think I replied adequately by referring to LOS and a Storm Shield as great ways to mitigate DL's. That means if he is using Look Out Sir then he needs to fail a 2+ then a 3+ to take a wound, which I believe lays at around 5%. Saying weight of fire is essential in 40k is irrelevant, I never disputed the fact, what I said is can you muster that much fire while dealing with all the threats presented in the limited time given to you by the advancing bikes. Also, FTR, weight of fire isn't the most effective way of dealing with terminators as luck can always play it's part. The most effective way in my opinion is the ever popular Ion accelerator, Stregth 8 AP 2 Large Blast with possible Ignores cover or better BS seems like a quite effective way to me.

@Ailaros I never said they where explicitly bad. I said that they aren't overly effective vs Toughness 3< and that they are effective against MC's, only matched/beaten by Shurikan weapons due to psudo-rending. Your last sentence seems a bit out of place, it is perfectly reasonable to lead your biker unit with a Chapter Master or Captain with a 2+ save, a tanky hero that is really effective at defending his unit from splinter weaponary. If splinter weapons are effective against him doesn't overly matter, you either have to deal with him some other way (Incubi are not bad at this) or use speed to place shots at places he isn't. It's also rather ironic that TL Bolters are actually quite effective against DE vehicles, Twin Linked and relentless meaning a turn spent in rapid fire range of a biker squad will usually end in a few glances.

Again you didn't read what I wrote... I said weight of fire is a fundamental rule, fundamental != essential.

Also, as soon as bikes get close, it's not unreasonable to turbo boost 30" away and lock and load again. Their range is also very limited being 18" with nightshields. There are many things that concern DE out there, Bikers are not at the top of the list sir.

Plus, look at it pointswise. A min-sized splinterborn in venom costs 121 points, and puts out a maximum of 26 shots. Against SM bikes, that means 3 dead bikes in a single volley, from one unit. Heck, just a regular raider with splinter racks and a squad of warriors with a cannon kills 3 or 4 bikes in a volley for 170 points, and that's only counting splinter weapons, and is on a troops choice that you're likely already bringing.

With even basic force concentration on the DE player's side, he should be able to blow away a couple of full-sized bike squads in a single turn with nothing but splinter weapons.

And then remembering that some of the DE player's shots will not be splinter weapons, and a ravenwing player would probably just melt against them.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, look at it pointswise. A min-sized splinterborn in venom costs 121 points, and puts out a maximum of 26 shots. Against SM bikes, that means 3 dead bikes in a single volley, from one unit. Heck, just a regular raider with splinter racks and a squad of warriors with a cannon kills 3 or 4 bikes in a volley for 170 points, and that's only counting splinter weapons, and is on a troops choice that you're likely already bringing.

With even basic force concentration on the DE player's side, he should be able to blow away a couple of full-sized bike squads in a single turn with nothing but splinter weapons.

And then remembering that some of the DE player's shots will not be splinter weapons, and a ravenwing player would probably just melt against them.

THANK YOU AILAROS!

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Again you didn't read what I wrote... I said weight of fire is a fundamental rule, fundamental != essential.

Also, as soon as bikes get close, it's not unreasonable to turbo boost 30" away and lock and load again. Their range is also very limited being 18" with nightshields. There are many things that concern DE out there, Bikers are not at the top of the list sir.

Well, even you aren't quoting yourself right. You said ''Fundamental thing'' not rule. If I don't put it in quotation marks why would you assume I am trying to quote you directly, rather then just paraphrasing (Considering essential and fundamental mean very similar things to me). I play DE, as you have probably assumed, and this isn't me saying DE are bad, this is me saying that this isn't as clear a cut of ''they'll shred through bikes...'' (<-- See) and more rather you will have to work at least as hard against this army as most others. Also, yes, it is quite unreasonable to turbo boost 30'' away from the Bikers because unless you play on a ridiculously large board you will simply run out of table space. Also, nightfields matter much less to a Biker army due to 12'' move, add that to their '18 inch' bolter range you still have an effective range of 30 inches.

As to Ailaros's well thought out response I would say that they are an effective unit. But are inherently the glass hammer that all DE are. Considering that Dark Lance ravagers matter much less then massive weight of fire units like these will be the top priority. Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary, at 36'' away or less. There by starting on the board 12 '' in, moving 12'' in he movement phase and shooting 18'' means that the bikers on the first turn have an effective range of 42 inches. So if you don't get first turn you can expect these to be going down fast, if you do manage to get first turn then yes they will cause a good amount of damage unless tanked by a character and then have the venom shot down. So unless you have brought 3 of such a unit (possible, but not the usual builds I see) then they will likely be 1 time thing, sure they might survive the explosion but they will still be markedly less dangerous. Yes a Dark Eldar army can defeat a white scar army, but it would be a much more sure thing by slimming down on the splinters to add in a good counter assault unit like a beastpack who can stop those krak grenades getting to close.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Again you didn't read what I wrote... I said weight of fire is a fundamental rule, fundamental != essential.

Also, as soon as bikes get close, it's not unreasonable to turbo boost 30" away and lock and load again. Their range is also very limited being 18" with nightshields. There are many things that concern DE out there, Bikers are not at the top of the list sir.

Well, even you aren't quoting yourself right. You said ''Fundamental thing'' not rule. If I don't put it in quotation marks why would you assume I am trying to quote you directly, rather then just paraphrasing (Considering essential and fundamental mean very similar things to me). I play DE, as you have probably assumed, and this isn't me saying DE are bad, this is me saying that this isn't as clear a cut of ''they'll shred through bikes...'' (<-- See) and more rather you will have to work at least as hard against this army as most others. Also, yes, it is quite unreasonable to turbo boost 30'' away from the Bikers because unless you play on a ridiculously large board you will simply run out of table space. Also, nightfields matter much less to a Biker army due to 12'' move, add that to their '18 inch' bolter range you still have an effective range of 30 inches.

As to Ailaros's well thought out response I would say that they are an effective unit. But are inherently the glass hammer that all DE are. Considering that Dark Lance ravagers matter much less then massive weight of fire units like these will be the top priority. Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary, at 36'' away or less. There by starting on the board 12 '' in, moving 12'' in he movement phase and shooting 18'' means that the bikers on the first turn have an effective range of 42 inches. So if you don't get first turn you can expect these to be going down fast, if you do manage to get first turn then yes they will cause a good amount of damage unless tanked by a character and then have the venom shot down. So unless you have brought 3 of such a unit (possible, but not the usual builds I see) then they will likely be 1 time thing, sure they might survive the explosion but they will still be markedly less dangerous. Yes a Dark Eldar army can defeat a white scar army, but it would be a much more sure thing by slimming down on the splinters to add in a good counter assault unit like a beastpack who can stop those krak grenades getting to close.

This is simply untrue, Just castle and shoot bikes on your board edge, when he gets close, turbo boost to his board edge. It's not rocket science. Also, even in dawn of war, the deployment edges are 48" Away from each other. If you sit on your own edge he won't have range turn 1...


EDIT: Also, don't kiss up to ailaros, he doesn't like it...

Yea DE poisoned shooting is pretty dirty

Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary,

For full shots the venom doesn't have to be stationary - if fires as heavy 6 regardless and can move up to 12 and still fire both cannons. If the passengers want to shoot at full BS skill though it can only move 6"

cammy wrote:

Then, if you intend to shoot the full amount of shots then your Venom must be stationary,

For full shots the venom doesn't have to be stationary - if fires as heavy 6 regardless and can move up to 12 and still fire both cannons. If the passengers want to shoot at full BS skill though it can only move 6"

Yup. Alex should learn his codex a little better.

No one HAS TO respect massed splinter weapons, but they'll figure it out in time.

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
No one HAS TO respect massed splinter weapons, but they'll figure it out in time.

Agree whole heartedly. When two venoms killed my plague marine squad of 10, that's when I started respecting Dark Eldar's splinter fire.