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Uptopdownunder wrote:No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them.

Are, so we should adjust the facts to fit the hypothesis then?

Mythra wrote:If I ever get to play PrinceRaven I am rolling a strawberry. What state you in btw?

South Australia.

No we just stick to the facts as they are presented.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No we just stick to the facts as they are presented.

Then cite them. You've asserted over and over that the rules say it's 1 die - prove it.
You've said that we just have to want to see the rule - find it. Prove me wrong. I want you to.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them..

The cite the page where witchfires roll 1 die if specified

 CrownAxe wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them..

The cite the page where witchfires roll 1 die if not specified

Its been cited before, go read the other threads.

Fragile wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them..

The cite the page where witchfires roll 1 die if not specified

Its been cited before, go read the other threads.

that was typo

I've read the rules governing psychic powers and this is definitely puzzling. All the focused witchfires do not have weapon profiles. Most of the witchfires do with the exception of psychic scream. It says they are counted as Assault weapons unless otherwise specified, and yet they are not given a weapon profile, only an effect.

Pg. 51: a model with an assault weapon shoots a number of times indicated on it's profile

Since having the power not go off at all because you cannot role to hit seems stupid, the only logical conclusion is that you do not need to role to hit, and you only apply the effect.

At least that is HIWPI

Fragile wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
No guys just no. The answers are thrre in the rules, you just have to want to find them..

The cite the page where witchfires roll 1 die if not specified

Its been cited before, go read the other threads.

Except it wasn't cited. At any point.

HiveGuard wrote:

Since having the power not go off at all because you cannot role to hit seems stupid, the only logical conclusion is that you do not need to role to hit, and you only apply the effect.

That's one logical conclusion, certainly. Given that we're dealing with GW rules, it's also just as likely that we're expected to figure out for ourselves that one shot should be the default for assault weapons with no listed profile, despite this not actually being covered in the rules...

So on the flyer either

- it can't target a zooming flyer because that power does not roll to hit.
- Yes, but snap shots 6's to hit.

 insaniak wrote:

HiveGuard wrote:

Since having the power not go off at all because you cannot role to hit seems stupid, the only logical conclusion is that you do not need to role to hit, and you only apply the effect.

That's one logical conclusion, certainly. Given that we're dealing with GW rules, it's also just as likely that we're expected to figure out for ourselves that one shot should be the default for assault weapons with no listed profile, despite this not actually being covered in the rules...

Hitting or not has no effect on the outcome go the power, as only to-wound rolls have a pre-requisite of a successful to-hit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hitting or not has no effect on the outcome go the power, as only to-wound rolls have a pre-requisite of a successful to-hit

The rules for witchfires say quite clearly that you have to roll to hit with them, the details of the psychic power in question detail the effects of that hit, sometimes it is a standard "To Wound" result, other times it is some other form of action or result, as is the case with Puppet Master.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hitting or not has no effect on the outcome go the power, as only to-wound rolls have a pre-requisite of a successful to-hit

The rules for witchfires say quite clearly that you have to roll to hit with them, the details of the psychic power in question detail the effects of that hit, sometimes it is a standard "To Wound" result, other times it is some other form of action or result, as is the case with Puppet Master.

Have you been able to cite the page where witchfires roll 1 die if not specified?

Because I am not seeing it.

How else would you follow the instruction to "roll to hit".

The example I gave earlier of a Pistol makes it pretty clear that the default is 1.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How else would you follow the instruction to "roll to hit".

The example I gave earlier of a Pistol makes it pretty clear that the default is 1.

Pistols are assault 1 because the book physically has written "assault 1" in their entry. Adding effectively doesn't unsay assault 1 its still written there. It still is the reason we know pistols are assault 1.

No where in the witchfire rules do we have anything of the sort. You pistols example doesn't set a precedent mostly because its wrong but because it would only apply to pistols and has no reason to apply to assault weapons in general because pistols are only a subset of them. If it did then you could then also assume that assault weapons count as a CCW as well which is totally wrong.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How else would you follow the instruction to "roll to hit".

The example I gave earlier of a Pistol makes it pretty clear that the default is 1.

Actually it just made it clear that a pistol is assault 1.

The line of thought that says 'how else would we do it? It must be method X.' is illogically basing you conclusion on a lack of information and an arbitrarily deciding there is some sort of unstated default.

Without a weapon profile an assault weapon cannot roll to hit or even do anything with a hit even if it could.

Now look at the rest of the resolution of those effects. The say X effects on the target. Do they say that is contingent upon a Hit? No. Does it say 'instead of rolling to wound'? No. I says the target suffers X effect. There is nothing to connect the To-Hit roll with the powers resolution. Essentially it does not care if you Hit or not, it says the target suffers it effects.

Every other weapon that has some other effect than wounds/pens/glances as per the standard mechanics states something to the effect of 'a unit hit by' or 'a unit wounded by' or even 'instead of rolling to wound'. None of that is in there. RAW the To-Hit roll for the mentioned psychic powers does not matter. It does break the game though because it says it must be rolled and until you can roll an unknown number of dice you cannot proceed.

So I say again
RAW = Broken
RAI = Unknown
HYWPI = ?

Just house rule it.

 Nem wrote:
So on the flyer either

- it can't target a zooming flyer because that power does not roll to hit.
- Yes, but snap shots 6's to hit.

Witchfires can be fired as Snap Shots, and a unit that automatically hits still automatically hits when making a Snap Shot, so I don't see anything stopping you from resolving the power against a Flyer without needing to hit on sixes.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 Nem wrote:
So on the flyer either

- it can't target a zooming flyer because that power does not roll to hit.
- Yes, but snap shots 6's to hit.

Witchfires can be fired as Snap Shots, and a unit that automatically hits still automatically hits when making a Snap Shot, so I don't see anything stopping you from resolving the power against a Flyer without needing to hit on sixes.

Because, per the FAQ, anything that hits automatically cannot affect a Zooming Flyer.

"any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them."

It is explicitly stated in the Witchfire rules that they do roll to hit, so they do not fall under the purview of that FAQ entry.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
How else would you follow the instruction to "roll to hit".

So you're making an assumption not supported by rules - gotcha.
Now, can you cite the requirement to hit prior to resolving non-wound effects?

The example I gave earlier of a Pistol makes it pretty clear that the default is 1.

Page 52 explicitly states pistols are Assault 1. There's no "default" anywhere in the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:
Now, can you cite the requirement to hit prior to resolving non-wound effects?

It's a shooting attack that has to roll to hit. What happens to a shooting attack if you fail your to-hit roll?



It's a bit of a lose-lose here, though - either it has to roll to hit but we can't use it because it doesn't tell us how many dice to roll, or it doesn't have to roll to hit, in which case it can't be used against flyers as per the FAQ...

 insaniak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now, can you cite the requirement to hit prior to resolving non-wound effects?

It's a shooting attack that has to roll to hit. What happens to a shooting attack if you fail your to-hit roll?

It misses.
So you have no permission to roll to Wound. Find denial for non-wound effects.

 insaniak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now, can you cite the requirement to hit prior to resolving non-wound effects?

It's a shooting attack that has to roll to hit. What happens to a shooting attack if you fail your to-hit roll?

Then it has no Hits to roll into Wounds.

What rule connects this to the rest of the powers resolution?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them."

It is explicitly stated in the Witchfire rules that they do roll to hit, so they do not fall under the purview of that FAQ entry.

Which leaves you in the situation the attack must snap shot. Attacks that automatically hit can not hit Zoomers, while on one side the power may not rely on hitting to effect, to effect a FMC the attack has to snap shot ( and hit on a snap shot)


It's in a simular boat to Maledictions, which some people believe can hit zoomers, some people believe they can't hit zoomers. Mechanically powers like this SHOULD have been maledictions which count as having fired a weapon in the ensuing shooting phase.

If you agree Maledictions can hit zoomers, then there's no issue with this effecting the unit. If you disagree then even if a roll is not required to apply the effect - you then can't target the unit.

Theres other considerations, like at which point is the FMC liable to take a grounding test for being effected by Puppet Master etc

Not too much of an issue for me, FLGS play a single roll to hit for these powers.

 insaniak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now, can you cite the requirement to hit prior to resolving non-wound effects?

It's a shooting attack that has to roll to hit. What happens to a shooting attack if you fail your to-hit roll?

You fail your to-hit roll. Now, as was pointed out - find a requirement to have a successful to-hit when you are rolling something other than a to-wound roll. I cannot find one, and noone could in the previous thread(s) on this topic.

You are making the assumption that you need a to-hit before you can continue resolving the power, but importantly that assumption has no rules basis. None.

Uptop - again, it states you must roll to hit. Now, as above, find a RULE (that means a page number and para) that states that a failure to hit means you do not resolve the power. Or that you must hit to resolve the rest of the power. NOT that you must roll to hit, but htat the OUTCOME of that roll has ANY bearing whatsoever on the rest of the power. Page and para. Please abide by the tenets.

Oh, and it isnt a "default", a pistol is literally states as assault 1. There is no default, you have made that up. Now, it is a reasonable assumption, but not one based in any actual rules.

 Nem wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them."

It is explicitly stated in the Witchfire rules that they do roll to hit, so they do not fall under the purview of that FAQ entry.

Which leaves you in the situation the attack must snap shot. Attacks that automatically hit can not hit Zoomers...

"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

The first half of the other FAQ notes weapons that hit automatically long side Novas, beams and weapons that do not roll to hit

But it doesn't hit automatically. It requires you to roll to hit with no 'automatic' about it. Just because it has it's effect even on a miss does not mean the required To-Hit roll is nonexistent.

RAW shenanigans for sure but that's how they wrote it.